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June 28, 2022

The relationship between Athletics and college enrollment

The relationship between Athletics and college enrollment

It’s no secret that college athletics can play a role in deciding where a student will go to college. All across the country universities use different marketing strategies based on their athletic programs to help increase their enrollment.  

Jim Carr, who is the President and CEO of the NAIA joins us to discuss how athletics programs can have a positive impact on your university and if marketed correctly, how these programs can help drive your universities enrollment.  

Hear our conversation with Jim Carr, President at NAIA:

  • How athletics can have a positive effect on campus broadly. 
  • How marketing athletics properly can help drive a school's enrollment.
  • Integrating athletics and enrollment together is the recipe for success  

More information about Jim Carr and today’s topics:

The Higher Ed Marketer podcast is sponsored by Caylor Solutions, an Education Marketing and Branding Agency, and by Think Patented, a Marketing Execution, Printing and Mailing provider of Higher Ed solutions.

    

 

Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.240 --> 00:00:09.679 You're listening to the Higher Ed Marketer, a podcast geared towards marketing professionals in 2 00:00:09.720 --> 00:00:14.839 higher education. This show will tackle all sorts of questions related to student recruitment, 3 00:00:15.039 --> 00:00:19.559 dontor relations, marketing trends, new technologies and so much more. If 4 00:00:19.600 --> 00:00:23.839 you are looking for conversations centered around where the industry is going, this podcast 5 00:00:23.879 --> 00:00:35.359 is for you. Let's get into the show. Welcome to the Higher Ed 6 00:00:35.439 --> 00:00:40.280 Marketer podcast. I'm troy singer, along with Bart Taylor, and this week 7 00:00:40.320 --> 00:00:45.759 the conversation is marketing and utilizing athletics for stronger enrollment, and I know this 8 00:00:45.840 --> 00:00:51.359 is something that Bart feels strongly about. Today we speak with Jim Carr, 9 00:00:51.359 --> 00:00:56.679 who's the president and CEO of the National Association of Inter Collegiate Athletics, also 10 00:00:56.759 --> 00:01:00.719 known as in a I A, and Bart, I think he gives us 11 00:01:00.759 --> 00:01:07.319 a lot of tips and a lot of information that some colleges are probably not 12 00:01:07.359 --> 00:01:11.799 thinking on how to utilize athletics to grow their enrollment and also to hone in 13 00:01:11.879 --> 00:01:15.680 on mission fit students. Yeah, I think you're exactly right on that, 14 00:01:15.719 --> 00:01:19.120 troy, and the thing I like about the conversation we have with with Jim 15 00:01:19.159 --> 00:01:26.120 today is in AIA is focused on kind of that small college athletic group. 16 00:01:26.200 --> 00:01:29.359 So most of their members are, I think Jim says, around eighteen hundred 17 00:01:29.439 --> 00:01:34.439 students and so and I know that small schools rely a lot on recruitment of 18 00:01:34.519 --> 00:01:40.400 athletes for the overall, you know, class fit and to get in there. 19 00:01:40.439 --> 00:01:42.400 And so jim kind of talks a little bit about how an AIA is 20 00:01:42.400 --> 00:01:49.680 supporting their member schools with data, with with resources and with ways of looking 21 00:01:49.719 --> 00:01:55.159 at athletics a little bit differently and helping the schools do that successfully. I 22 00:01:55.159 --> 00:01:57.359 think there's a lot of good tips and tricks if you've already got an athletic 23 00:01:57.359 --> 00:02:00.599 program in your school, on how you might be able to tweak some things 24 00:02:00.599 --> 00:02:07.159 to get a better marketing and better engagement between recruiters and and and coaches. 25 00:02:07.599 --> 00:02:09.759 But overall I just really like Jim's approached everything in the way that they kind 26 00:02:09.759 --> 00:02:21.479 of do things at Anaia. Here's our conversation with JIM CAR WE WELCOME JIM 27 00:02:21.560 --> 00:02:25.400 card to the conversation, who is the CEO and president of the National Association 28 00:02:25.400 --> 00:02:30.599 of Intercollegiate Athletics, otherwise known as in a IA, to the Higher Ed 29 00:02:30.680 --> 00:02:37.479 Marketing podcast. Jim If you could please introduce us to you and also the 30 00:02:37.599 --> 00:02:42.120 in AIA. Yeah, thanks, Troy. Jim Carr, president of a 31 00:02:42.199 --> 00:02:45.879 A. I have been in that positions just two thousand and six I've been 32 00:02:45.919 --> 00:02:50.759 around for a while. Any I is membership association made up of roughly two 33 00:02:50.800 --> 00:02:54.919 hundred and fifty colleges and universities across the country, primarily in the Midwest, 34 00:02:54.960 --> 00:03:00.840 southeast and our West, and our membership is made up of about eighty percent 35 00:03:00.879 --> 00:03:05.639 private institutions, and those institutions on average of aboubout eighteen hundred and two thousand 36 00:03:05.719 --> 00:03:10.080 students. Are Really Count on athletics to be a big driver of enrollment and 37 00:03:10.199 --> 00:03:14.520 just a big part of the campus, and so we're there to support them 38 00:03:14.520 --> 00:03:17.360 in all their efforts, especially to run championships and make sure that student athletes 39 00:03:17.400 --> 00:03:22.240 on those campuses are eligible to compete. Thank you. And the reason why 40 00:03:22.240 --> 00:03:25.599 we ask you to be on the show is to get tips for our listeners 41 00:03:25.680 --> 00:03:31.240 on how athletics can be used to strengthen or increase enrollment, and that's a 42 00:03:31.280 --> 00:03:38.479 conversation that I believe you have on an ongoing basis with the presidents and leaders 43 00:03:38.479 --> 00:03:43.120 in the schools that are members of in AIA. Is that correct? Yeah, 44 00:03:43.159 --> 00:03:47.560 we do, and it's a conversation that has grown with frequency and importance. 45 00:03:47.599 --> 00:03:51.800 I think over the last decade or so. It used to be something 46 00:03:51.840 --> 00:03:55.240 that was talked about nearly as much in terms of the impact that athletes can 47 00:03:55.280 --> 00:04:00.159 have on enrollment, but I think schools and leaders of those institutions of particular 48 00:04:00.199 --> 00:04:03.360 just growing to understand and appreciate the importance of it. So, you know, 49 00:04:03.439 --> 00:04:08.759 we talked at every leadership meeting about it in some regard and we've been 50 00:04:08.800 --> 00:04:14.000 created a major initiative called reternal athletics. That's that brings in a lot of 51 00:04:14.120 --> 00:04:19.160 data and assists our schools to not only understand the potential opportunities and how things 52 00:04:19.160 --> 00:04:23.519 are working on their own campus, but then people to compare that with the 53 00:04:23.560 --> 00:04:27.800 two hundred and fifty other institutions around the country and and make some make some 54 00:04:27.879 --> 00:04:31.199 decisions based on on those data. That's good to know. Jem I'm working 55 00:04:31.279 --> 00:04:36.720 with several organizations, you know, the different different groups that support especially private 56 00:04:36.800 --> 00:04:42.319 education, and I think that shared data is so important. I think sometimes 57 00:04:42.399 --> 00:04:44.879 it feels like, why, I'm out here by myself, what's it like? 58 00:04:45.319 --> 00:04:47.720 And you kind of think, Oh, I'm competing against that other school 59 00:04:47.759 --> 00:04:53.040 down the down the road that we you know that we compete in athletics with, 60 00:04:53.079 --> 00:04:55.439 but a lot of times we're not really competing against one another, as 61 00:04:55.439 --> 00:04:59.399 private schools were competing against the the other alternatives that the community college is, 62 00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:02.040 the publics and things like that, and so the bigger republics, I should 63 00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:05.720 say, and so I think that I think that's interesting. I mean, 64 00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:09.399 what are some of the things that you kind of tell the schools as far 65 00:05:09.439 --> 00:05:14.399 as enrollment and and I guess part of it is even retention? Talk through 66 00:05:14.439 --> 00:05:16.480 that a little bit, because I think athletics does provide a little bit of 67 00:05:16.480 --> 00:05:20.439 a unique solution for some of that. Yeah, you know, we talked 68 00:05:20.439 --> 00:05:24.720 a lot about and I guess I first should say that we're only in the 69 00:05:24.759 --> 00:05:27.600 second year of collecting data from all of our schools. We had a couple 70 00:05:27.600 --> 00:05:30.680 of years of a pilot program. We had eight institutions than forty, but 71 00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:34.199 this is the we're completing the second year of a full data set. So 72 00:05:34.199 --> 00:05:38.920 we're still somewhat is in its empathy. But the things that we've concentrated so 73 00:05:38.920 --> 00:05:42.800 far was some of our research breeves and some of the information we're sending out 74 00:05:42.879 --> 00:05:46.800 or we've been really focusing and retention, as you mentioned, and just trying 75 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:51.879 to analyze things like what what size of a roster and various sports as kind 76 00:05:51.879 --> 00:05:55.959 of a sweet spot for retention. And if you get too large, is 77 00:05:55.959 --> 00:05:59.959 that, I was retention go down and vice versa, if you're too small, 78 00:06:00.199 --> 00:06:02.800 what's impact there? And then in terms of enrollment, things like the 79 00:06:02.800 --> 00:06:06.959 impact of financial aid or competitive success out of those impact the ability to attract 80 00:06:08.360 --> 00:06:13.240 student athletes onto your campus. And so right now it's because two years does 81 00:06:13.279 --> 00:06:16.160 not make a trend in most people's eyes. Were we're we're speculating a little 82 00:06:16.160 --> 00:06:19.879 bit and then really showing here's our here's our theory around those kinds of things. 83 00:06:19.879 --> 00:06:23.759 But is that as we have more longitudinal data, I think it's going 84 00:06:23.759 --> 00:06:27.360 to get even stronger and stronger. But at a minimum it allows leaders on 85 00:06:27.399 --> 00:06:30.560 campuses to take a step back and say, I wonder and we thought about 86 00:06:30.600 --> 00:06:33.920 the maybe I thought about the appropriate roster size for us, but I didn't 87 00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:38.399 have any data to help support that decisions. And now they're starting to think 88 00:06:38.399 --> 00:06:40.879 about it in that way. Of course, on their own campus they should 89 00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:45.360 have data going back even farther to help them analyze it on their own own 90 00:06:45.399 --> 00:06:47.959 campus. I like that approach because I think that it's so important. I 91 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:54.199 mean, I think so many times historically colleges, universities have kind of seen 92 00:06:54.240 --> 00:06:57.240 athletics, as you know, that's that's over there, that's the that's the 93 00:06:57.319 --> 00:07:02.399 ads responsibility. And I'm noticing a lot more schools are partnering between the Athletics 94 00:07:02.399 --> 00:07:08.800 Department and the and the admissions and enrollment department to just start to and to 95 00:07:09.079 --> 00:07:14.920 degree student life with retention, but to really just make sure that everyone's talking 96 00:07:14.959 --> 00:07:15.680 with one another. I know that, you know, a lot of time 97 00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:21.160 schools, especially smaller privates, rely a lot on the you know, thirty, 98 00:07:21.199 --> 00:07:27.759 forty, fifty percent on the recruitment of the coaches for to fill their 99 00:07:27.759 --> 00:07:30.800 classes. But talk a little bit about, you know, how how these 100 00:07:31.079 --> 00:07:35.639 how departments can be more facilatory with each other, because I think that's a 101 00:07:35.720 --> 00:07:40.439 challenge at some schools face. Yeah, I think it's a great, great 102 00:07:40.439 --> 00:07:43.399 point, Bart and for us most of our data in that area is going 103 00:07:43.399 --> 00:07:46.439 of anecdotal at this point. We're trying to gather various models and talk with 104 00:07:46.439 --> 00:07:50.079 people about what does what does work best and how do you how do you 105 00:07:50.120 --> 00:07:56.439 think about, as you said, essentially the cooperation between admissions, financial aid 106 00:07:56.480 --> 00:08:01.040 and the Athletic Department, of the VP of enrollment coming in to that equation? 107 00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:03.199 And think the schools that are having the most success in athletics, and 108 00:08:03.199 --> 00:08:07.959 by that I don't know Sary meaning competition, but the right the most success 109 00:08:07.959 --> 00:08:11.120 in terms of attracting students, do it in a way this consistent with the 110 00:08:11.120 --> 00:08:16.439 discount rate they're trying to keep and in retaining those students at a high percentage. 111 00:08:16.519 --> 00:08:22.560 Those those schools tend to have great integration between the admissions and the enrollment 112 00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:24.800 side of the House and athletics, and it can be structured in many different 113 00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:30.199 ways. Some even put their afflets department most of the coaches and bed them 114 00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:35.559 in the enrollment area, where others just have cross functional integration in some way. 115 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:37.600 So there's a lot of a lot of ways to do it. But 116 00:08:37.639 --> 00:08:43.960 the schools who are are not very effective that at that crosscommunication, that integration, 117 00:08:43.240 --> 00:08:48.360 or finding themselves struggling more so than the other schools. Okay, good, 118 00:08:48.399 --> 00:08:50.200 and I got a few more questions about the business of student athletics before 119 00:08:50.240 --> 00:08:54.360 I get that, before we kind of move away from this data point. 120 00:08:54.519 --> 00:08:56.720 Is there a place that people can access the state it, or is that 121 00:08:56.799 --> 00:08:58.639 for members, or how does that work? It is it is right now 122 00:08:58.639 --> 00:09:03.480 from verse members only. It's a never benefit. We are in the process 123 00:09:03.519 --> 00:09:07.480 of creating what we're calling the return Netflix calculator, which is kind of a 124 00:09:07.720 --> 00:09:11.559 if you think of a mortgage calculator. You can go into a website of 125 00:09:11.600 --> 00:09:15.120 a mortgage company and put in your own data and find out what what it 126 00:09:15.200 --> 00:09:16.799 might look like if you were to take out a mortgage with that company were 127 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:20.960 we're creating a similar type tool so that schools who are not members can come 128 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:24.480 in and get a little sneak peak and, if they are is in getting 129 00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:28.679 more information. It's a pretty worrious process to give us the exact same data 130 00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:33.240 that a member would give us, but we would ask for some smaller data 131 00:09:33.320 --> 00:09:35.919 set and then be able to give them a little bit of a snapshot. 132 00:09:35.919 --> 00:09:39.879 I would like to be in any I and have access to return athletics, 133 00:09:39.919 --> 00:09:41.480 but that would be on it. We've done it in a couple of occasions 134 00:09:41.519 --> 00:09:46.440 already and we're getting some INC a division two and division three schools interested in 135 00:09:46.919 --> 00:09:48.960 learning more, especially as we're getting the chance, like we are with with 136 00:09:50.039 --> 00:09:52.639 you all today, to talk a bit more about it and have people make 137 00:09:52.679 --> 00:09:56.200 people aware that it's a possibility. That's great. I love that idea of 138 00:09:56.200 --> 00:09:58.519 that tools. So we'll make sure that we've got a note of that for 139 00:09:58.559 --> 00:10:03.240 everyone, I guess. Moving on, you just mentioned NCAA. You know, 140 00:10:03.480 --> 00:10:07.879 two and three divisions and I know that the way the n Ai a 141 00:10:07.879 --> 00:10:11.720 approaches things. You know a lot of people are familiar with NCAA and and 142 00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:13.440 that's kind of the de facto, but tell me a little bit about the 143 00:10:13.720 --> 00:10:18.879 different approach that you take. You know that that people might not quite fully 144 00:10:18.919 --> 00:10:24.000 understand. Yeah, you know, are our strategy and our vision for the 145 00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:26.919 any I is to be the experts in the business of small college athletics. 146 00:10:26.919 --> 00:10:30.879 Are Membership is made up of only small college just essentially. You know, 147 00:10:31.000 --> 00:10:33.600 we do have a few that might be north of five or going a couple 148 00:10:33.639 --> 00:10:37.799 north of ten thousand students, but, as I mentioned earlier, our average 149 00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:43.039 enrollment is is just under two thousand, and so the ways in which those 150 00:10:43.120 --> 00:10:46.200 kinds of schools use the athletics is very different than pick your big state school, 151 00:10:46.279 --> 00:10:50.840 University of Oklahoma or university to see they're going to be at a drive 152 00:10:50.879 --> 00:10:56.240 revenue through, obviously through sponsorships and their big television contracts and those kinds of 153 00:10:56.240 --> 00:11:00.559 things that just start available to small schools. So our belief is, and 154 00:11:00.600 --> 00:11:03.080 now I think the vast majority of our membership is an agreement, that they 155 00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:07.960 need to understand how to use athletics to drive enrollment and if they can keep 156 00:11:07.960 --> 00:11:13.759 their discounts and check to be a net tuition revenue driver and things like that. 157 00:11:13.840 --> 00:11:18.519 So are we. I want we also focus on quality competition and making 158 00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:22.600 sure that our championships are run well and that only student athletes on the field 159 00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:26.799 and competition or ones that are membership agree should be eligible. Kind of distinate 160 00:11:26.840 --> 00:11:30.360 when people think of as the standard role of an athletics association. Those things 161 00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:33.840 are still really important, but if our schools can't figure out a way to 162 00:11:33.879 --> 00:11:39.039 be be profitable in the sense and keep keep the doors open, then none 163 00:11:39.039 --> 00:11:43.000 of that really matters. Right. And then about you know, how does 164 00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:46.000 that work with, you know, like when we when we all think about, 165 00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:48.120 you know, DNE schools, it's all scholarship based. How does that 166 00:11:48.159 --> 00:11:54.480 work with in Ai Schools? Yeah, so when as a comparison didn't see 167 00:11:54.519 --> 00:11:58.200 a most people think of us is kind of a hybrid between NC Division Two 168 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:01.960 and division three, and by that I mean that our scholarship limits and ability 169 00:12:03.000 --> 00:12:07.840 to give athletic aid is very similar TONC division to okay, but our schools 170 00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:09.360 look a little bit more like Inca, a division three schools, and since 171 00:12:09.399 --> 00:12:13.840 that most Inca schools in c d three schools are private and small for the 172 00:12:13.840 --> 00:12:18.480 most part, and so the schools that are with us, at least some 173 00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:24.440 of them, like that model. There they can they compete against like minded 174 00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:28.960 institutions, so they're not having to break the bank to compete, right, 175 00:12:28.039 --> 00:12:31.759 but at the same time there is some value and being able to give a 176 00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:35.600 student or let their parents know they're getting, an athletic scholarship. People can 177 00:12:35.639 --> 00:12:39.600 draw their own conclusions about what that says about society that some value an athletic 178 00:12:39.639 --> 00:12:43.759 scholarship more than an academic scholarship, but I think that's just that's just the 179 00:12:43.759 --> 00:12:46.559 way it is these days. And so yeah, schools are able to use 180 00:12:46.600 --> 00:12:50.039 that to their advantage in a strategic way and it's really nice fit or a 181 00:12:50.120 --> 00:12:56.840 niche for any I good Jim. When I think about Collegian athletics. Right 182 00:12:56.919 --> 00:13:03.080 now, image and likeness comes to the forefront and I'm not sure if it's 183 00:13:03.080 --> 00:13:05.120 accurate, but when they first announced it I thought that's going to give the 184 00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:09.919 bigger schools advantage over the smaller schools because of the smaller schools might not be 185 00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:16.120 able to offer as much or offer some of the same things. Could you 186 00:13:16.120 --> 00:13:20.200 speak to how smaller schools are taking advantage of the image and likeness rules? 187 00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:24.159 Yeah, and Troy, I think you're your shop. Your assumption is correct 188 00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:28.240 in the sense that they're just more dollars available and economics are different at the 189 00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:33.480 big schools can fair to compare to smaller schools, but we're seeing and theny 190 00:13:33.519 --> 00:13:37.879 I we eliminated all of our restrictions around they image and like this about three 191 00:13:37.080 --> 00:13:41.200 or four years ago, kind of a year year and a half before then. 192 00:13:41.240 --> 00:13:45.440 See a got to that place and we're kind of forced by the by 193 00:13:45.480 --> 00:13:48.799 the number of states who fast laws. So we've been at it for for 194 00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:54.120 quite a while now and we have thousands of student athletes. We have a 195 00:13:54.159 --> 00:13:58.279 total of about eightyzero student athletes and our our estimates are that two to three 196 00:13:58.279 --> 00:14:03.240 thousand of those at least or in some way, shape or form taken advantage 197 00:14:03.320 --> 00:14:07.320 of name, image likeness. Now for them, typically the the higher dollar 198 00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:11.879 amounts would be maybe in five figures. There are a few students who might 199 00:14:11.879 --> 00:14:15.759 be any more than tenzero. So, but that's mostly because they have a 200 00:14:15.799 --> 00:14:22.279 huge following on social media and mostly outside of their athletic ability or talent or 201 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:26.320 just like they just content. It's rating videos and other things and influencing. 202 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:31.080 But they those things would have been against the rules five or six years ago 203 00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:37.919 because the primary restriction that was was lifted is students weren't allowed to associate themselves 204 00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:41.159 as being a student athlete, that of tickular campus, and we all know 205 00:14:41.240 --> 00:14:45.679 on social media that's almost impossible to remove that from your profile or whatever else 206 00:14:46.120 --> 00:14:48.000 maybe a part of. So that's really open the door for a lot of 207 00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:52.200 those things. And then, you know also can give pitching lessons or help 208 00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:56.320 coach kids and basketball and make some money again, things that weren't allowed number 209 00:14:56.320 --> 00:15:00.240 of years ago, and you know those are make a few hundred bucks here 210 00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:03.720 and there post of thousands. But and then we do have the occasional Jo's 211 00:15:03.759 --> 00:15:07.799 pizza shop that will give all the offensive limb and Free Pizza, just to 212 00:15:09.080 --> 00:15:11.879 just as a feel good thing and to help them out all those some of 213 00:15:11.919 --> 00:15:15.240 those things you heard one but just at a smaller, smaller levels. Let's 214 00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:18.559 work well. We be remiss about and mention our great partnership with the open 215 00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:20.840 doors. They were one of the first companies to come in and create a 216 00:15:20.840 --> 00:15:26.759 platform that not only helps student athletes improve their brand and understand how to promote 217 00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:28.559 themselves in terms of naming megal likeness, but they also have a market place. 218 00:15:28.600 --> 00:15:33.639 So they're bringing companies in and ANYI student athletes can reach out to those 219 00:15:33.639 --> 00:15:37.720 companies just like a d one student athlete could. And so we have about 220 00:15:37.759 --> 00:15:41.279 that last count, a couple thousand kids in that on that platform and we're 221 00:15:41.320 --> 00:15:45.159 just really starting to market it through our eligibility center and through other forms. 222 00:15:45.200 --> 00:15:48.080 So I think that'll grow exponentially in the next few years. And is that 223 00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:54.919 something that your organization helps your membership colleges implement and do better? Do you 224 00:15:54.919 --> 00:16:00.159 give advice on how their athletes can go after some of those funds? We 225 00:16:00.200 --> 00:16:03.240 do, and it's primarily through that partnership with open doors. There the there 226 00:16:03.279 --> 00:16:07.799 the experts in it and they're working with a lot of NCA division one schools, 227 00:16:07.799 --> 00:16:11.080 but with us, we created a partnership with them across all of our 228 00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:14.080 schools. No, it's not mandatory for a school to use them. If 229 00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:17.279 they wanted to partner with someone else, they certainly could. But I think 230 00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:22.120 most of our schools are seeing the value of this collective market place and all 231 00:16:22.159 --> 00:16:26.200 the schools coming together to kind of work together and understand the different strategies for 232 00:16:26.240 --> 00:16:30.360 their students and it also gives them out. We don't have a huge compliance 233 00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:34.799 burden around this, but there are students need to disclose when they're doing these 234 00:16:34.840 --> 00:16:37.759 kinds of things and if they're in the open doors platform, it makes that 235 00:16:37.840 --> 00:16:41.679 on the seamless. When you sign one of these deals, is just automatic 236 00:16:41.720 --> 00:16:45.039 that it goes into the system. So we do see. So we're assisting 237 00:16:45.039 --> 00:16:49.840 through the through the efforts of open doors. Essentially that's great and and I 238 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:52.919 guess that kind of leads me to our next you know, part of the 239 00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:56.159 conversation that we had talked about was the idea of you've kind of discussed a 240 00:16:56.159 --> 00:16:59.440 little bit about, you know, the difference of the student athletes and in 241 00:16:59.840 --> 00:17:03.519 AIA versus. Maybe some other associations tell me a little bit about the demographics. 242 00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:08.359 I mean obviously there's small private schools and and there's, you know, 243 00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:12.440 because they're average size is eighteen hundred. I've got some ideas, but maybe 244 00:17:12.440 --> 00:17:15.720 just help me under understand a little bit more about the demographics of the member 245 00:17:15.799 --> 00:17:19.119 schools and and how that affects, you know, the student athletes that they 246 00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:26.359 that they recruit. Yeah, so in general or two hundred and fifteen members 247 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:30.440 and like when a lot of people that realizes we have close to eightyzero student 248 00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:33.960 athletes. So if you just do the math, that's a little bit over 249 00:17:33.960 --> 00:17:37.599 three hundred student athletes per school. And obviously some have more, some have 250 00:17:37.720 --> 00:17:41.079 less, but if you're if you're a campus of a thousand, one fifteen 251 00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:44.359 hundred students and you got three or four hundred student athletes, it's a big 252 00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:48.799 presence of athletics on your campus, and so schools are starting to understand just 253 00:17:48.839 --> 00:17:53.400 the importance, importance of that. The other demographics that come to mind is 254 00:17:55.200 --> 00:17:59.799 all we certainly have schools and big cities like Chicago and Los Angeles. A 255 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:03.400 lot of our membership tends to be in rural areas, which I think all 256 00:18:03.480 --> 00:18:07.359 for some advantages and some challenges. To get to get students there. So 257 00:18:07.400 --> 00:18:11.720 again, athletics can be a nice driver of that. And we also have 258 00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:15.279 a lot of pockets, specially in the Midwest, where we have schools that 259 00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:19.960 are close to each other and geography which creates natural rivalries and schools and make 260 00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:25.640 competing against each other for almost a hundred years and right fun things that can 261 00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:30.720 come about through that and really knowing from an enrollment and finance perspective, but 262 00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:34.000 just a nice experience for student athlete and students on campus when a couple thousand 263 00:18:34.039 --> 00:18:38.519 people come out to basketball game because they want to see that competition against arrival. 264 00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:44.240 That's great and I'm guessing that mean I work with a lot of small 265 00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:45.920 schools like the ones you've described and I know a lot of our schools that 266 00:18:45.920 --> 00:18:51.759 we work with, our our NAI schools, and I and I often see 267 00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:56.160 sometimes that you know a lot of their you know these smaller schools, not 268 00:18:56.200 --> 00:19:00.279 only in athletics but just the overall population. It's a lot of first gen 269 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:03.960 students, there's a lot of a lot of pell, pell eligible students, 270 00:19:04.119 --> 00:19:08.839 and so I'm sure that's kind of reflected in the athletics as well. Is 271 00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:11.319 that? Is that what you find and do you provide any kind of, 272 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:15.359 you know, member benefits or or help that you can help schools to help? 273 00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:19.079 You know, how can you recruit these students that are might not quite 274 00:19:19.160 --> 00:19:23.839 understand, you know, the whole they don't know how to navigate the college 275 00:19:23.839 --> 00:19:29.440 experience? Yeah, I would say part the answers. Yes, in terms 276 00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:33.079 of First Jens students in their big part of athletics, and we're we're just 277 00:19:33.079 --> 00:19:37.359 starting to because the tip of the iceberg is analogy that comes to mind. 278 00:19:37.400 --> 00:19:41.799 We're just starting to have some good data around that. In the first areas 279 00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:48.000 were tension. We did a comparison a first gen student athletes compared to all 280 00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:52.759 other student athletes and the area of retention in the first Gen students actually attained 281 00:19:52.759 --> 00:19:56.759 at a higher rate than the non Firston. So we were pleased to know 282 00:19:56.880 --> 00:20:00.920 that. And now part of their equation is why is that what our schools 283 00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:04.759 doing? Well to retain them at a higher rate and we want to improve 284 00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:11.119 retension for all subsets or your people overall. But I was very encouraged to 285 00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:15.880 learn that right off the bat and again want to help schools to understand what's 286 00:20:15.880 --> 00:20:18.559 working and why that's happening in terms of how to attract more first in students. 287 00:20:18.599 --> 00:20:23.359 We certainly something that's on our list of areas we want to tackle, 288 00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:26.440 but we just haven't really gotten to that yet. Yeah, that's great and 289 00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:30.440 I know a couple weeks ago we had to the limited foundation for education on 290 00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:33.519 the PODCAST and they I've done some work with them over the years and I 291 00:20:33.559 --> 00:20:37.279 know that they have done some initiatives around first gen students and one of the 292 00:20:37.279 --> 00:20:41.279 important things that they they identified and discovered it some of their research that they 293 00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:45.759 support are, you know, these different cohorts that that you know, first 294 00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:49.839 Gen students can get involved in and how being in a being in a specific 295 00:20:49.839 --> 00:20:56.000 cohort sometimes can add you know, stickiness and retention to those students because you 296 00:20:56.000 --> 00:20:59.319 know, come end of semester they're not they're not if they're already in a 297 00:20:59.400 --> 00:21:03.599 group or where they're not one to just kind of bail because they're just not 298 00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:07.559 making the fit. And it seems to me like student athletics really kind of 299 00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:11.759 often serves that natural cohort. Is that kind of what you think too? 300 00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:17.279 Yeah, I agree that it's a great point and something we can certainly explorer. 301 00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:21.720 Hope our data will support that, but it does. Intuitively that seems 302 00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:27.640 like a conclusion that I would agree with and the sense that everyone wants to 303 00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:33.039 belong somewhere. In the first Jin students, it's not something that's been talked 304 00:21:33.039 --> 00:21:37.680 about your family as you were growing up, and US it's all brand new 305 00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:40.359 to you as you get to the campus. To have a have a built 306 00:21:40.359 --> 00:21:45.119 in family or built in cowork certainly certainly helps, and we know that for 307 00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:48.440 the most part our coaches that's part of the reason they're in their jobs. 308 00:21:48.440 --> 00:21:52.000 They want to win and they want to compete, but they're help young people 309 00:21:52.119 --> 00:21:56.759 grow and going to be successful in life, and so I know the number 310 00:21:56.799 --> 00:22:00.160 of our coaches made a special attention to those who don't families, don't have 311 00:22:00.200 --> 00:22:04.000 any college experience like that. That's fits well with the that you're talking about 312 00:22:04.200 --> 00:22:07.200 and it probably fits well with the smaller schools to that's just part of the 313 00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:11.920 ethos sometimes of those smaller schools as well. But we've talked a little bit 314 00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:18.000 about student athletes and sometimes I think we have in our mind a particular type 315 00:22:18.039 --> 00:22:22.319 of image, whether it be a female athlete or a male athlete. But 316 00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:26.960 sometimes I've noticed a lot of associations are identifying some new student athletes that many 317 00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:32.720 of us might not recognize a student athlete's and I'm specifically talking about esports. 318 00:22:32.920 --> 00:22:37.000 And so tell us a little bit about esports and and how an AIA is 319 00:22:37.079 --> 00:22:40.880 starting to kind of look at that, because I know that's another very, 320 00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:45.599 very popular way. That's that schools are starting to look at other opportunities for 321 00:22:45.640 --> 00:22:51.000 recruitment. Yeah, I love to talk about our esports efforts and audience compare 322 00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:52.519 with me. I'll go through a little bit of the history of it. 323 00:22:52.599 --> 00:22:56.559 Been Back in two thousand and sixteen, six years ago. It's hardly has 324 00:22:56.599 --> 00:23:02.839 been that long. But we knew of six institutions that were jumping in to 325 00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:07.960 start esports as a varsity sport, to use the traditional word, and sports 326 00:23:07.960 --> 00:23:12.480 a meaning they were starting to recruit students onto campus as opposed to just students 327 00:23:12.519 --> 00:23:17.359 are already there, allowing them to play various es sports. So we brought 328 00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:19.240 in these six institutions and said, well, why don't we start a an 329 00:23:19.240 --> 00:23:26.039 association to support esports and starting a national association with six members. This is 330 00:23:26.319 --> 00:23:27.880 a leap of faith that you opened, that others will join, but that 331 00:23:29.240 --> 00:23:32.759 the there was pretty good evidence that it was going to grow pretty quickly, 332 00:23:32.759 --> 00:23:36.759 and so five of those happened to be any schools. One was an NC 333 00:23:36.920 --> 00:23:41.079 division to school. But they all agree to join and so we just started 334 00:23:41.079 --> 00:23:44.440 going down the path, not sure exactly where I was going to lead us. 335 00:23:44.480 --> 00:23:48.400 But Pass forwards to a day we have about two hundred member institutions. 336 00:23:48.440 --> 00:23:52.480 More than half of those are in the NCA for their traditional sports, some 337 00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:56.720 division one like the University Missouri, a lot of details and d threes, 338 00:23:56.799 --> 00:24:00.200 and then the about eighty or so any school. So it's a nice x 339 00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:04.640 and nice blend and right now size of institution doesn't doesn't really predict success. 340 00:24:04.839 --> 00:24:10.119 It depends on what resources they can smaller schools want to want to put into 341 00:24:10.119 --> 00:24:12.839 it. But it's been it's been great for the vast majority of those institutions 342 00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:18.839 and the way I like to think of it is that for those naysayers out 343 00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:21.200 there, because I was a little skeptical we first started doing it too, 344 00:24:21.240 --> 00:24:26.920 about all the stereotypes of esports players being in the basement you eating Gurrito's and 345 00:24:26.039 --> 00:24:32.000 drinking mountain do but what we found is that it's just the opposite. When 346 00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:36.559 you bring it in as part of the campus ethos and we're talking with them 347 00:24:36.640 --> 00:24:40.119 a few minutes ago about first Gen students and wanted to have a sense of 348 00:24:40.119 --> 00:24:44.200 belonging and have a cohort that they can can use to keep them on campus. 349 00:24:44.279 --> 00:24:48.279 I think it's a similar concept with esports. Now these students are literally 350 00:24:48.279 --> 00:24:52.720 going from playing esports in the basement or and apartment somewhere to doing so in 351 00:24:52.759 --> 00:24:57.119 many cases right in the middle of the campus and they're they're being seen differently 352 00:24:57.160 --> 00:25:00.839 by their fellow students and they feel differently because they now feel like this is 353 00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:06.240 something that's legitimized and you know, a lot of schools to or putting in 354 00:25:06.440 --> 00:25:10.480 physical fitness is a part of this and getting them giving them some assistance that 355 00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:15.519 traditional athletes typlicate round academics and other things. So it's by and large been 356 00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:18.000 just terrific. And you still have the concerns about is it really healthy to 357 00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:22.680 play these Games for twelve hours a day or whatever some of the students are 358 00:25:22.680 --> 00:25:25.440 are doing, but my view is most of them are going to be doing 359 00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:27.799 that on their own anyway, so it's better to have a support system to 360 00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:32.359 help around it. So we would an answer to say it's just it's fun 361 00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:37.200 to watch. The actually started a separate association so we could attract schools that 362 00:25:37.240 --> 00:25:41.319 were not playing their traditional sports, and then Ai, and so it's called 363 00:25:41.400 --> 00:25:45.359 NACE, the National Association of Cleach D Sports, and it's just going great 364 00:25:45.359 --> 00:25:51.079 guns and still a very business that's still maturing and has has a lot of 365 00:25:51.119 --> 00:25:53.240 growth and a lot of work to do but by and large great, great 366 00:25:53.240 --> 00:25:56.799 success. Now are some of the schools that are members of NACE? Are 367 00:25:56.839 --> 00:26:00.839 they offering scholarships or is it is it's kind of similar to an AI, 368 00:26:02.039 --> 00:26:04.920 where some are somewhere not. It's part of the financial aid package, depending. 369 00:26:06.119 --> 00:26:10.519 Yeah, I would say it's. It's very similar to smaller institutions. 370 00:26:10.519 --> 00:26:15.720 On the athletic side, they're most most schools are trying to package some esports 371 00:26:15.720 --> 00:26:18.960 scholarship is part of their financial aid offerings out to out the students and there 372 00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:22.880 are a handful who are giving up what's close to a full scholarship, but 373 00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:29.200 that's that's pretty rare. So it's right stacking on top of academic aid and 374 00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:33.599 other aid with the maybe a twenty five hundred dollar esports scholarship for given more 375 00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:38.279 than that, but it's it's definitely a partial scholarship model. I think that's 376 00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:42.680 a very interesting and I applaud you for stepping into that and I think that 377 00:26:42.759 --> 00:26:48.359 it can be a little bit of controversial or, you know, not sure 378 00:26:48.359 --> 00:26:52.400 about it, but again it's a it's a reality of our culture, it's 379 00:26:52.400 --> 00:26:56.079 a reality of life, it's a reality of Gen Z and Alpha coming down 380 00:26:56.119 --> 00:27:00.960 the pike and and really being able to lean into that and and make that 381 00:27:00.039 --> 00:27:06.000 a part of our our campus culture. I think is is is something that 382 00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:08.680 we should applaud and I'm glad to see you guys taken some leadership in that 383 00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:12.279 at the at the association level. Yeah, well, thanks. It's exciting 384 00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:18.319 and I sit on that board and I'm by far I know the least about 385 00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:21.240 the esports anyone else and boors of them graduate. The rest of them are 386 00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:25.359 there, but I hopefully I can addle something from running association and just it's 387 00:27:25.400 --> 00:27:26.480 just a lot of fun to watch and to be a part of. That's 388 00:27:26.519 --> 00:27:33.079 great. Jim, at the top of the podcast you mentioned admissions working well 389 00:27:33.079 --> 00:27:36.880 with athletics and some of the success that you have noticed, and I also 390 00:27:36.920 --> 00:27:41.240 know Bart has examples that he's mentioned in previous podcast. Wanted to bring that 391 00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:48.720 conversation back and to encourage both of you to offer either examples or advice that 392 00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:53.599 you would get smaller schools on how they could strengthen that relationship to increase enrollment 393 00:27:53.839 --> 00:28:00.759 and also help in marketing. Yeah, you know one one institution that comes 394 00:28:00.759 --> 00:28:03.960 to mind. I can't tell you a ton about the exact structural campus, 395 00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:07.759 but Morningside College is great example to me. They came over to the nil 396 00:28:07.839 --> 00:28:12.200 over twenty years ago from ins a division two, and in their division to 397 00:28:12.319 --> 00:28:18.079 model they had about eight hundred students total and about half of those athletes and 398 00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:21.599 many of those were getting full scholarship. So with the way the president, 399 00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:25.920 John Renders, who's about to retire, explain it to me, as you 400 00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:30.480 know, the four hundred none athletes were were having a support the school and 401 00:28:30.519 --> 00:28:33.039 kind of carry the four hundred athletes were getting in a lot of cases full 402 00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:37.599 of scholarships. And so they came over to then I and built a model 403 00:28:37.599 --> 00:28:41.039 where now they have about twenty five hundred students and still have a lot of 404 00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:42.720 student athletes, but as a percentage as much lowers and like they have five 405 00:28:42.759 --> 00:28:48.559 or six hundred student athletes. But he talked a lot about the importance of 406 00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:52.920 partnership between admissions and enrollment and and the Athletic Department and that, you know, 407 00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:56.240 the coaches understand on the front side that they're going to try to help 408 00:28:56.319 --> 00:29:00.160 them win and they have. They just want our football championship and they've won 409 00:29:00.920 --> 00:29:06.599 at a lot of levels a lot of sports. But for for Dcor rhynders 410 00:29:06.680 --> 00:29:08.519 and for the leadership on campus, the Board of thing was, you know, 411 00:29:08.519 --> 00:29:11.720 how do we keep how do we move forward with athletics in a way 412 00:29:11.720 --> 00:29:15.599 that supports the institution? And so the coaches also understand that it's just not 413 00:29:15.640 --> 00:29:19.359 an open check book, that they have to do it in a responsible way 414 00:29:19.400 --> 00:29:22.240 and that they are going to give a good bit of a to one student, 415 00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:26.240 they need to attract some students that don't need as much aid to come 416 00:29:26.279 --> 00:29:29.680 to come to campus. So let's one specific example of how worked. And 417 00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:33.240 then I know there are other institutions, as I mentioned before, that actually 418 00:29:33.240 --> 00:29:37.519 put the coaches into the into the abistions office, and I think it's a 419 00:29:37.640 --> 00:29:41.319 it's an interesting model. I'm sure it has some challenges and I don't have 420 00:29:41.400 --> 00:29:45.599 as much interaction with admissions folks or enrollment people, but I know there were 421 00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:49.279 probably some who might think that's a bad idea. So you have to have 422 00:29:49.319 --> 00:29:52.799 to figure out how to do it on campus with politics and other things. 423 00:29:52.839 --> 00:29:56.480 But I think, I think, as Bart said earlier, coaches there's would 424 00:29:56.480 --> 00:30:00.920 be hard to argue that coaches here not the best for hooters on campus and 425 00:30:00.920 --> 00:30:03.200 know how to bring kids in, and so it seems it would seem to 426 00:30:03.240 --> 00:30:07.599 be a shame if you didn't try to utilize that ability, in that talent, 427 00:30:07.720 --> 00:30:11.160 that expertise and in some way to a track students in general and even 428 00:30:11.240 --> 00:30:17.160 use some of those tactics and strategies to attract men athletes. Yeah, and 429 00:30:17.480 --> 00:30:21.559 I think to general add to that that I believe that sometimes this campus is 430 00:30:21.559 --> 00:30:26.920 that I see that are the most successful in integrating athletics and enrollment together are 431 00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:32.720 those that align all the way from from the top down on mission fit, 432 00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:37.720 because I mean I think that it's it's so critical, especially at some of 433 00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:41.559 these smaller privates, that that are very mission oriented. I mean every school's 434 00:30:41.559 --> 00:30:45.920 mission oriented. Sometimes it's, you know, academic is the mission, sometimes 435 00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:48.359 it's, you know, faith, it's the mission. There's different ways that 436 00:30:48.400 --> 00:30:52.440 you can define mission, but I think that having alignment throughout all of the 437 00:30:52.480 --> 00:30:59.160 faculty staff, including coaches and recruiters, on what are the best students that 438 00:30:59.160 --> 00:31:03.279 are actually going to, you know, flourish at our institution. And sometimes 439 00:31:03.319 --> 00:31:07.880 that's that's you know they're how there are some tough decisions to make in that 440 00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:10.400 but I think at the same time, at the end of the day, 441 00:31:11.200 --> 00:31:15.279 a coach that can retain a student from freshman is senior on a squad or 442 00:31:15.400 --> 00:31:19.400 on a roster is really going to see more success on the on the quarter, 443 00:31:19.559 --> 00:31:23.720 on the field, in whatever they're doing, and that's why I think 444 00:31:23.720 --> 00:31:27.119 it's so critical that, you know, mission fit students are the ones that 445 00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:32.119 get recruited and I think that just adds, ADDS value for everybody. I 446 00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:33.720 mean, you know, the last thing a student wants to do is end 447 00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:38.160 up at a school that wasn't a good fit for them and nobody wants that, 448 00:31:38.240 --> 00:31:41.000 and so I think a lot of times that success. We're well that 449 00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:45.359 way too. Right, I agree hundred percent. And fit is important. 450 00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:49.519 As you mentioned, there every school as a mission but they're very different depending 451 00:31:49.599 --> 00:31:53.880 on the institution and where you are. And one thing you said trigger for 452 00:31:53.920 --> 00:31:56.680 me. One of the things we're trying to do with return athletics is is 453 00:31:56.720 --> 00:32:02.680 help people understand that driving enrollment through athletics and do it in a financially responsible 454 00:32:02.680 --> 00:32:07.000 way doesn't mean that you can't be competitive, that any of you can do 455 00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:13.039 both, and we're finding a lot of institutions that are having the most success 456 00:32:13.039 --> 00:32:17.839 in competition or also finding success and driving enrollment and on the financial side, 457 00:32:17.880 --> 00:32:22.319 and we're we're trying to help them understand the what's the what's the cause and 458 00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:25.960 effect there, and what's the what's the connection, because we also have schools 459 00:32:25.960 --> 00:32:30.640 that are spending a lot of money on athletics and not having success, and 460 00:32:30.680 --> 00:32:36.279 I would an obvious thing to point out is everybody can't win. Somebody's going 461 00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:38.440 to win and somebody's going to lose in each competition. But but I think 462 00:32:38.440 --> 00:32:42.079 you know, most of our institutions can be competitive and do it in a 463 00:32:42.119 --> 00:32:46.759 way that helps helps the financial impact on campus. Great Gem. That's we 464 00:32:46.839 --> 00:32:51.880 bring the this episode to a close. You'd like to ask you if you 465 00:32:51.920 --> 00:32:55.559 have either an impactful final thought or a quick tip that you can offer as 466 00:32:55.599 --> 00:33:01.200 it relates to strengthening enrollment and missions to athletics that you would like to leave 467 00:33:01.359 --> 00:33:06.920 before we close our podcast. Yeah, try. I don't know if it's 468 00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:12.119 anything new from what we've already talked about, but I it just seems to 469 00:33:12.119 --> 00:33:16.319 me for institutions that look like any schools, and by that I mean schools 470 00:33:16.319 --> 00:33:24.920 that are around two thousand students and primarily private institutions, this this topic that 471 00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:29.680 we've since we've been talking about for the full podcast around how does athletics how 472 00:33:29.720 --> 00:33:35.400 a positive impact on the campus broadly? If schools aren't paying attention to that 473 00:33:35.480 --> 00:33:38.559 and they're in that category, it just seem I can't understand why, and 474 00:33:38.559 --> 00:33:43.920 I think they're putting themselves and maybe not in a danger of extinction, but 475 00:33:44.079 --> 00:33:49.480 but certainly are not exploring all the ways that they can be viable and sustainable 476 00:33:49.559 --> 00:33:53.319 over over time. And so I know there are some presidents is still aren't 477 00:33:53.319 --> 00:33:57.759 on that, on that train yet, so to speak, but as I 478 00:33:57.799 --> 00:34:00.160 go to see I see presents and student other places, it's certainly obvious that 479 00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:04.599 more and more thinking about it. And so if there any presidents out there, 480 00:34:04.599 --> 00:34:07.440 people in leadership positions on campus and they want to understand how we're looking 481 00:34:07.480 --> 00:34:10.000 at that data and the things that we're we're trying to do to help our 482 00:34:10.280 --> 00:34:14.840 institutions would love to talk with them whether they're are in a position to potential 483 00:34:14.840 --> 00:34:19.800 to join any are not. Think we have some sense of responsibility to just 484 00:34:19.840 --> 00:34:23.480 make sure people understand that better and we have a guess, a greater responsibility 485 00:34:23.480 --> 00:34:27.440 to our own members in terms of sharing the date and things like that. 486 00:34:27.480 --> 00:34:30.599 But it's a it's an area that I'm passionate about out and I think it's 487 00:34:30.639 --> 00:34:32.280 Prooke the important and so the last thing I would say on that is, 488 00:34:32.440 --> 00:34:37.840 whatever your model is, that the Cross section, integration, the communication between 489 00:34:37.880 --> 00:34:43.880 athletics and any roll but just continues to be more and more important. Thank 490 00:34:43.960 --> 00:34:46.599 you, Jim. And for those presidents or anyone else that would like to 491 00:34:46.639 --> 00:34:53.679 get more information about in AIA or contact you with further questions that they have 492 00:34:53.760 --> 00:34:58.000 after hearing the podcast, what's the best way for them to contact you? 493 00:34:58.679 --> 00:35:01.039 Yeah, through our website, any I dot Org, as the best in 494 00:35:01.119 --> 00:35:05.239 my contact information is on there, but it's just jake car J AC a 495 00:35:05.800 --> 00:35:08.960 rr at any I dot org and love to hear from anybody out there as 496 00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:14.440 more questions and certainly could set up a call or a zoom meeting of that's 497 00:35:14.559 --> 00:35:17.599 interest. Well, thank you for being a guest on the podcast and helping 498 00:35:17.679 --> 00:35:22.719 us get this message out. I hope that it does spur more questions and 499 00:35:22.840 --> 00:35:28.079 inquiries that you can follow up on Bart. Do you have any final thoughts 500 00:35:28.119 --> 00:35:30.960 before we close the show? Yeah, just a couple things that I'm thinking 501 00:35:31.039 --> 00:35:35.760 is that I really like this idea of the business of student athletics. I 502 00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:38.000 think that, you know, so many times, I think that we forget 503 00:35:38.079 --> 00:35:44.000 and leadership that, especially as we talk about marketing, that there's an opportunity 504 00:35:44.039 --> 00:35:46.960 to look at different segments of types of students and how we market to them 505 00:35:47.000 --> 00:35:52.719 and how we recruit them. And there's a you know, athletics in High 506 00:35:52.719 --> 00:35:57.320 School and club and everything else is such a big part of our culture and 507 00:35:57.320 --> 00:36:00.519 and a lot of those students will end up, you know, hope to, 508 00:36:00.679 --> 00:36:06.559 you know, eventually play their continue their sport into Indo College, and 509 00:36:06.639 --> 00:36:10.280 so I think that the opportunity that schools have for that level of marketing to 510 00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:14.800 those students and using that for recruitment is a great thing. And I think 511 00:36:14.840 --> 00:36:16.480 a lot of the things that we talked about in here is the importance of 512 00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:21.519 making sure that there's, you know, alignment between the the Athletic Department and 513 00:36:21.800 --> 00:36:24.840 the recruitment department and I would also say alignment within the marketing as well, 514 00:36:24.840 --> 00:36:30.679 because the coaches are going to need support from marketers in the best ways to 515 00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:32.199 communicate. I mean, there's a set of rules around, you know, 516 00:36:32.599 --> 00:36:37.480 the recruitment of college students and athletes, and so understanding that and working with 517 00:36:37.480 --> 00:36:40.760 the athletic department, but being able to provide them, you know, is 518 00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:45.480 it is a separate type of acceptance package. I mean, you know, 519 00:36:45.519 --> 00:36:47.239 if you've got half of your students that you're on your campus are going to 520 00:36:47.239 --> 00:36:51.880 be student athletes, you know, maybe there's a special you know way that 521 00:36:51.920 --> 00:36:55.239 you also tie in the acceptance package. You know, if you're sending a 522 00:36:55.280 --> 00:37:00.039 big folder or big, you know presentation, maybe you kind of do a 523 00:37:00.119 --> 00:37:04.880 nod and personalize it so it's toward, you know, they're their sports that 524 00:37:04.880 --> 00:37:07.960 they're a part of or their esports they're a part of. And I really 525 00:37:07.000 --> 00:37:10.360 like the idea of the esports to and I applaud that because I think that's 526 00:37:10.440 --> 00:37:14.639 one of those things that is taking a leap of faith. It's going out 527 00:37:14.639 --> 00:37:17.199 a little bit further and doing something creative. And I would also challenge, 528 00:37:17.280 --> 00:37:21.079 you know, the schools that are looking at esports. How can you use 529 00:37:21.119 --> 00:37:22.280 that marketing in that as well? I mean, you know, you think 530 00:37:22.320 --> 00:37:29.079 about their platforms within the esports where you know you can buy ads even within 531 00:37:29.239 --> 00:37:32.480 the games them selves, and so what a great place, if you have 532 00:37:32.519 --> 00:37:37.679 an esport program at your school, to actually be placing digital ads within these 533 00:37:37.719 --> 00:37:40.920 games so that the student says they're, you know, zipping around the racetrack 534 00:37:40.960 --> 00:37:44.840 at six hundred miles an hour they see the ad up for your school go 535 00:37:44.880 --> 00:37:46.320 by. So there's a lot of ways that we need to be creative when 536 00:37:46.360 --> 00:37:51.360 we start thinking about the recruitment of certain segments, and this is a good 537 00:37:51.440 --> 00:37:54.280 conversation about how to do that for athletes. Thank you, Bart, and 538 00:37:54.320 --> 00:37:59.519 again thank you to Jim car for helping us get this information out, and 539 00:37:59.559 --> 00:38:06.760 we encourage our listeners to contact him and the Organization for further conversation. The 540 00:38:06.880 --> 00:38:12.960 High Red Marketer podcast is sponsored by Kaba Solutions and education marketing and branding agency 541 00:38:13.119 --> 00:38:19.599 and by Think, patented, a marketing execution company combining print technology and personalization 542 00:38:20.159 --> 00:38:25.079 for deeper engagement with your target audience. On behalf of Bart Taylor, I'm 543 00:38:25.119 --> 00:38:34.840 troy singer. Thank you for your listen you've been listening to the Higher Ed 544 00:38:34.920 --> 00:38:38.159 Marketer. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show 545 00:38:38.239 --> 00:38:44.079 in your favorite podcast player. If you're listening with apple PODCASTS, we'd love 546 00:38:44.159 --> 00:38:46.559 for you to leave a quick rating of the show. Simply tap the number 547 00:38:46.599 --> 00:38:50.920 of stars you think the podcast deserves. Until next time,