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March 8, 2022

Confronting the “H-Bomb”: The Truth About Managing a Popular Brand

Confronting the “H-Bomb”: The Truth About Managing a Popular Brand

When Brian Kenny tells people he’s the Chief Marketing and Communications Officer for Harvard Business School, they often say, “Why does Harvard need a chief marketing officer?”

Yes, Harvard is a historic brand, and that might lead some to believe that it markets itself, but it turns out history can sometimes be a double-edged sword.

In this milestone episode — our 50th! — we talk with Brian about the challenges of managing a well-known brand, including how to balance being seen as both historic and forward-thinking.

We discuss:

- How Harvard Business School uses a podcast for marketing efforts

- Positive and negative perceptions of the Harvard brand

- Advocating for marketing budget

- Responding as a university to societal issues

Mentioned during the podcast:

- Reach out to Brian on Twitter: @hbscmo

- Check out our nomination on Terminalfour 

To hear more interviews like this one, subscribe to Higher Ed Marketer on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your preferred podcast platform.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Higher Ed Marketer in your favorite podcast player.

The Higher Ed Marketer podcast is sponsored by Caylor Solutions, an Education Marketing and Branding Agency, and by Think Patented, a Marketing Execution, Printing and Mailing provider of Higher Ed solutions.

    

 

Transcript

WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.840 --> 00:00:06.679 Hello and welcome to a very special episode of the Higher Ed Marketer. You've 2 00:00:06.719 --> 00:00:10.320 probably not heard my voice before, so please let me introduce myself. I'm 3 00:00:10.400 --> 00:00:14.839 ROB cottlet executive producer of this show. It's been my pleasure to work with 4 00:00:14.880 --> 00:00:19.039 Bart and troy over the past year to create this show to help the Higher 5 00:00:19.160 --> 00:00:24.199 Ed Marketing Space Grow and improve in these challenging times. Before we dive into 6 00:00:24.199 --> 00:00:28.760 today's episode with very special guests Brian Kenny of the Harvard Business School, I'd 7 00:00:28.800 --> 00:00:32.719 like to take a moment to acknowledge the absolute truck load of hard work and 8 00:00:32.799 --> 00:00:37.759 dedication from Bart and troy that makes this podcast work. Their willingness to show 9 00:00:37.840 --> 00:00:43.280 up week after week with amazing guests has led this show to be named number 10 00:00:43.399 --> 00:00:48.119 four on terminal fours, two thousand and twenty one list of the top ten 11 00:00:48.240 --> 00:00:53.759 podcasts for Higher Ed Marketing and recruitment teams. I'm incredibly proud of both of 12 00:00:53.799 --> 00:00:58.479 them and this show for shedding new light on the cutting edge of marketing for 13 00:00:58.640 --> 00:01:03.359 higher ed institutions and I certainly hope that you'll enjoy this episode, not only 14 00:01:03.520 --> 00:01:07.920 for our renowned guest, but with also some of the new additional touches that 15 00:01:07.000 --> 00:01:11.920 just make it shine a little bit more. So please sit back and enjoy 16 00:01:12.079 --> 00:01:19.840 this deeply insightful conversation today and help us celebrate fifty fabulous episodes of the Higher 17 00:01:19.920 --> 00:01:25.640 Ed Marketer. You're listening to the Higher Ed Marketer, a podcast geared towards 18 00:01:25.640 --> 00:01:30.799 marketing professionals in higher education. This show will tackle all sorts of questions related 19 00:01:30.799 --> 00:01:34.920 to student recruitment, don't know, relations, marketing trends, new technologies and 20 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:38.319 so much more. If you are looking for conversation centered around where the industry 21 00:01:38.359 --> 00:01:47.079 is going, this podcast is for you. Let's get into the show. 22 00:01:48.239 --> 00:01:52.079 Welcome to the High Reed Marketer podcast. I'm troy singer and I'm here with 23 00:01:52.120 --> 00:01:57.640 my cohost and most sincerely one of the best business partners I could ever have, 24 00:01:57.879 --> 00:02:02.000 Bart Taylor, and today we are bringing you our fifty episode of a 25 00:02:02.079 --> 00:02:07.200 hired Marketer podcast. How does it feel to be fifty, Bart? It's 26 00:02:07.239 --> 00:02:10.759 pretty incredible. It's for the second time for me, or as years I 27 00:02:10.759 --> 00:02:15.840 should say, but yeah, I'm so proud of the work that has gone 28 00:02:15.879 --> 00:02:17.960 in over the last year and it's been an honor to share that road with 29 00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:23.479 your troy. Thank you, and today our guest is Brian Kenny, who 30 00:02:23.599 --> 00:02:30.280 is the CMO of the Harvard Business School, and our conversation with him today 31 00:02:30.439 --> 00:02:36.159 is really what is the truth about managing a very strong, popular brand. 32 00:02:36.199 --> 00:02:38.759 And Bart, the reason why we felt it would be good to have this 33 00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:44.960 conversation is so often you and I are encountering people that's saying if I managed 34 00:02:45.080 --> 00:02:50.280 a brand like Harvard, it would be an easy marketing job. So you, 35 00:02:50.360 --> 00:02:53.520 to your credit, reached out and was able to get the CMO of 36 00:02:53.560 --> 00:02:58.560 Harvard as a guest so we could talk to him about that and then get 37 00:02:58.639 --> 00:03:05.000 some other thoughts that at our very interesting. About the CMO roll. Yeah, 38 00:03:05.039 --> 00:03:07.280 I thought it was a it was a great opportunity and I was really 39 00:03:07.319 --> 00:03:10.000 thrilled that Brian, you know, reach back out so quickly and said, 40 00:03:10.120 --> 00:03:15.080 wow, you've got a great podcast and I really impressive list of folks you've 41 00:03:15.080 --> 00:03:21.520 talked to. So thank you all the previous folks that we've had as guests. 42 00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:24.039 But really the question came down to is do the elite of the elite 43 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:28.199 really need to be able to market? And I think that you'll find this 44 00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:31.800 conversation really a good one. I think Brian kind of kind of lets you 45 00:03:31.840 --> 00:03:37.000 in on some of the things that that he's challenged as as chief marketing officer 46 00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:39.159 of the Harvard Business School, and he'll go into some of the details that 47 00:03:39.240 --> 00:03:44.719 are unique to Harvard. But in essence really is pay attention, because a 48 00:03:44.800 --> 00:03:49.360 lot of this is not unique to Harvard. It's unique to higher education marketing, 49 00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:52.960 and so I think he really gives you some great feedback and great tips 50 00:03:52.960 --> 00:03:55.199 that you can apply to your own school. Yes, the first half is 51 00:03:55.199 --> 00:04:00.840 really about that and Harvard business school overall, and it's podcast, but then 52 00:04:00.919 --> 00:04:06.319 the second part is about the h bomb and without further ADO, here is 53 00:04:06.360 --> 00:04:14.240 Brian Kenny. We are proud to welcome Brian Kenney, chief marketing and communications 54 00:04:14.280 --> 00:04:18.040 officer for the Harvard Business School, to the Higher Ed market a podcast. 55 00:04:18.120 --> 00:04:23.360 Brian, thank you so much for joining us. If we could ask you 56 00:04:23.680 --> 00:04:27.639 first tell us a little bit about yourself and then also your role at the 57 00:04:27.680 --> 00:04:30.439 Harvard Business School. Sure Right. Well, first time, thrill to be 58 00:04:30.480 --> 00:04:32.360 here, great to be a guest on your show. I'M A chief marketing 59 00:04:32.360 --> 00:04:36.800 and communications officer at Harvard Business School. I have the distinction, I guess, 60 00:04:36.879 --> 00:04:41.399 of being the first to hold that title, which is a mixed blessing, 61 00:04:41.399 --> 00:04:44.800 which will probably talk about at some point. But I've been in this 62 00:04:44.879 --> 00:04:48.040 role for coming up on fourteen years, which anybody knows that. You know, 63 00:04:48.079 --> 00:04:54.079 in a marketers life, fourteen years is like five eternity's really long time 64 00:04:54.079 --> 00:04:57.360 to be in the same role and I think a little bit it speaks to 65 00:04:57.399 --> 00:05:01.279 the nature of the exciting and dynamic natuure of Harvard Business School. I've been 66 00:05:01.279 --> 00:05:05.600 in and out of higher education throughout my career. I've worked at three major 67 00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:11.959 universities in Boston plus a small college, always in a marketing communications role, 68 00:05:12.439 --> 00:05:15.040 but I also stepped out for, you know, a decade or so and 69 00:05:15.199 --> 00:05:19.680 worked in the private sector in both professional services and high tech. So I've 70 00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:23.560 had, you know, a little bit of experience and other worlds that I 71 00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:27.560 brought back to higher ed when I when I return to this sector, and 72 00:05:27.600 --> 00:05:30.680 I think it helped me to see things maybe from a different perspective than somebody 73 00:05:30.680 --> 00:05:34.199 who's always been in higher education. And these days, you know, I 74 00:05:34.240 --> 00:05:38.839 have lots of conversations with people who have always been in the private sector and 75 00:05:38.879 --> 00:05:43.120 they're thinking about their next career and they they really want to explore higher ed 76 00:05:43.319 --> 00:05:46.199 as an opportunity so I think it's a great thing for anybody to explore. 77 00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:50.319 I also think it's the most challenging marketing role that that you can have, 78 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:55.399 and I'm happy to go deeper on that and explain why I why I believe 79 00:05:55.480 --> 00:05:58.399 that to be true. Harvard Business School, for those of you, for 80 00:05:58.480 --> 00:06:00.879 those of your listeners who are you, they know the name, but if 81 00:06:00.920 --> 00:06:03.959 they're not familiar with the enterprise, we are about a billion dollar enterprise, 82 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:08.399 a hundred and fifty million roughly to a billion, and we're known for the 83 00:06:08.480 --> 00:06:13.360 NBA program which is where we started, first school ever to to grant the 84 00:06:13.399 --> 00:06:17.399 master's in Business Administration. But we also have an executive education program that that 85 00:06:17.879 --> 00:06:21.639 you know, teaches about twelvezero executives who come through a year. We have 86 00:06:21.680 --> 00:06:26.920 an online program we're reaching tens of thousands people a year and we have a 87 00:06:26.959 --> 00:06:32.279 publishing enterprise that does hawevard business review as well as business books and and a 88 00:06:32.319 --> 00:06:36.480 whole host of other kinds of publications, as well as corporate training product. 89 00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:44.079 So it's a pretty diverse institution, all focused on management education in one realm 90 00:06:44.160 --> 00:06:46.959 or another. That's great. Thank you, Brian, for given us that 91 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:53.240 introduction and certainly that's a that's a large portfolio for a for a chief marketing 92 00:06:53.240 --> 00:06:57.639 and communications officer to manage. How does that I mean certainly part of it 93 00:06:57.720 --> 00:07:00.959 is is what I would consider traditional higher education, but then there's aspects of 94 00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:03.399 it are, you know, the publishing arm and other things like that. 95 00:07:03.959 --> 00:07:08.560 How are you kind of relating all that together? And maybe that goes back 96 00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:11.639 to your initial comment about, you know, it's one of the hardest marketing 97 00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:15.360 rules that you can do. Yeah, it does a little bit. I 98 00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:18.279 think that's true no matter what institution you're in. I think education is, 99 00:07:18.439 --> 00:07:21.959 you know, the the the various audiences that you have to think about as 100 00:07:23.040 --> 00:07:27.120 a as a marketing person in education is quite different than if you're selling a 101 00:07:27.160 --> 00:07:30.399 particular product or service. It's easier to ident to fi that target market that 102 00:07:30.439 --> 00:07:34.639 you've got in those other endeavors. In education you've got to think about students 103 00:07:34.680 --> 00:07:39.600 and alumni and, you know, town gown issues and the general public and, 104 00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:42.720 you know, so the the academy, all these other audiences that you've 105 00:07:42.759 --> 00:07:46.800 got to think about. So you're constantly shapeshifting from one meeting to the next 106 00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:50.480 where you might be talking about a social media strategy and the first meeting that's 107 00:07:50.519 --> 00:07:54.879 targeted to prospective students and then you're having a meeting about how are you going 108 00:07:54.920 --> 00:07:58.720 to deal with this building construction project that you've got going in the heart of 109 00:07:58.759 --> 00:08:01.759 the city and you've got, you know, neighbors around you that are riled 110 00:08:01.800 --> 00:08:05.560 up about it. So I think it's challenging because of the it's constantly calling 111 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:09.319 on you to adapt and to address different kinds of situations. You know, 112 00:08:09.360 --> 00:08:13.920 if I think about my role at Harvard Business School, that business experience that 113 00:08:13.959 --> 00:08:18.800 I had really became very helpful to me here. When I was in professional 114 00:08:18.839 --> 00:08:22.519 services, I was working for management consulting firms and I got a really deep 115 00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:26.439 dive on the kinds of issues that sea level executives have to think about on 116 00:08:26.480 --> 00:08:30.680 a daytoday basis, and that experience when I when I came to Harvard Business 117 00:08:30.720 --> 00:08:33.799 School. It felt like the combination of the educational experience that I had plus 118 00:08:33.879 --> 00:08:39.000 the business background, you know, really came full circle and dovetailed nicely at 119 00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:43.559 a place like HBS, which is a little bit like a business and a 120 00:08:43.600 --> 00:08:46.440 little bit like an educational institution. You know, we're bringing both of those 121 00:08:46.440 --> 00:08:50.440 worlds together and one of the things that HBS is known for is that the 122 00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:56.960 business case studies that we write are based on actual business issues that leaders challenges 123 00:08:56.000 --> 00:09:00.600 that leaders have had, and so all you know, the way that our 124 00:09:00.639 --> 00:09:05.039 faculty think, the way that the leadership team runs the school is very much 125 00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:07.519 like you would see in a corporate setting, where we're thinking a lot about 126 00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:13.840 the business strategy of the of the school. Great, Great Brian. Another 127 00:09:13.919 --> 00:09:18.039 aspect of the business schools that you have your own podcast, and if you 128 00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:22.679 could tell us about cold call and what it's mission is and maybe how the 129 00:09:22.759 --> 00:09:28.279 university utilizes that podcast and its marketing efforts? Yeah, I would love to 130 00:09:28.279 --> 00:09:31.440 talk about my podcast. Thank you the opportunity now. I yeah, so 131 00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:35.639 I love podcasts. I listen to them. I've listened to them for a 132 00:09:35.639 --> 00:09:39.679 long time and, you know, I saw when podcasting became a little bit 133 00:09:39.720 --> 00:09:45.960 more accessible because bandwidth became better and you could actually listen to podcast when you 134 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:48.960 are on the go. That, to me marked an opportunity for us to 135 00:09:48.960 --> 00:09:52.720 think about a different way of getting the word out about the work at Harvard 136 00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:56.639 Business School. My job, the job that I described from my team that 137 00:09:56.679 --> 00:10:01.960 we do every days to tell stories that animate the mission of the school and 138 00:10:01.960 --> 00:10:05.799 the work of the school, and part of that is bringing the voices of 139 00:10:05.840 --> 00:10:09.159 the people who are doing the work to the surface. And when I say 140 00:10:09.240 --> 00:10:11.759 voices I can mean that literally or I can mean it in writing and other 141 00:10:11.799 --> 00:10:16.559 ways, but podcasts are really a great way to humanize somebody and for a 142 00:10:16.600 --> 00:10:20.000 long time there was a mystique about Harvard business school and that worked for probably 143 00:10:20.039 --> 00:10:24.519 the first eighty or ninety years of our existence. But we live in a 144 00:10:24.600 --> 00:10:28.200 time where people want transparency, they want access. Social Media has made that 145 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:33.759 available and I think it's really helped us to help people see that the things 146 00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:39.919 that that faculty and students that HBS do are very impressive and very ambitious and 147 00:10:39.919 --> 00:10:43.759 they are changing the world in many ways. But at the same time these 148 00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:48.240 are just people and when you hear them talk about the the business cases they 149 00:10:48.240 --> 00:10:50.200 write and the work that they do, it really brings it right down to 150 00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:54.879 earth and humanizes them and knocks away a lot of the mystique that maybe creates 151 00:10:54.879 --> 00:10:58.039 a barrier between us and the public. And one of the thing I would 152 00:10:58.039 --> 00:11:03.320 say about cold call. Every episode features me talking to a faculty member about 153 00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:07.519 a business case they've written. We teach by the case method and many other 154 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:11.360 business schools have adopted the case method as a way of teaching. Every case 155 00:11:11.480 --> 00:11:16.600 is a story and every story is something that anybody who's in any aspect of 156 00:11:16.600 --> 00:11:20.639 business should be able to listen to and pull a lesson away from. So 157 00:11:20.759 --> 00:11:24.679 we think it's a great way to show the relevance of case method research. 158 00:11:24.759 --> 00:11:28.159 That's great and I guess I would do a follow up question that. On 159 00:11:28.200 --> 00:11:30.440 that, Brian, is the fact that, you know, you talk about 160 00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:35.320 authenticity and being able to show that real aspect of the faculty and of HBS 161 00:11:35.399 --> 00:11:41.159 and other aspects of the institution. Would you say that that's even more important? 162 00:11:41.240 --> 00:11:43.919 Mean, certainly podcast like to do that, but isn't that more important 163 00:11:43.960 --> 00:11:48.440 for the generations that we're dealing with, like millennials and Z's? And you 164 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:52.480 know I'm an exer. I think that, you know, it's that mystique 165 00:11:52.519 --> 00:11:56.080 still kind of plays in a little bit with with with our generation, I 166 00:11:56.080 --> 00:12:00.759 think, but I think as you get further younger generations, that mystique starts 167 00:12:00.759 --> 00:12:03.120 to kind of rub them a little bit the wrong way and they do want 168 00:12:03.200 --> 00:12:05.679 that awesome to authenticity. It's it was that what you're finding. Yeah, 169 00:12:05.720 --> 00:12:11.440 I think that's definitely true and you know, I feel like everybody's got their 170 00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:15.200 mobile device in their hand all the time. We've got a generation now coming 171 00:12:15.240 --> 00:12:16.879 up. Who Are you? They're looking at tick tock, they're looking at 172 00:12:16.919 --> 00:12:22.919 short form video. You know, they they don't necessarily want to have to. 173 00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:26.399 I think there's a couple of dynamics. One is they want the information 174 00:12:26.440 --> 00:12:28.559 to be there when they want it, when they need it, when they're 175 00:12:28.559 --> 00:12:31.320 ready to consume it. PODCASTS are on demand, so you know you can 176 00:12:31.320 --> 00:12:35.840 you can download that anytime you want. They're very convenient in terms of being 177 00:12:35.840 --> 00:12:39.960 able to listen to them while you're doing something else, and I think it's 178 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:43.240 a medium that allows the listener to go deeper than they would if they were 179 00:12:43.279 --> 00:12:46.679 just scrolling through their feed. You know, they're going to look maybe a 180 00:12:46.679 --> 00:12:50.639 two minute video, but they're willing to invest in a twenty or thirty minute 181 00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:54.960 podcast if the content is good and relevant and if they're in a place where 182 00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:56.320 they're going to be there for twenty or thirty minutes. So for a lot 183 00:12:56.360 --> 00:13:01.440 of us that's the car during our commute or that's the gym when you're when 184 00:13:01.480 --> 00:13:05.000 you're on the treadmill, podcasts have made it really easy for people to again 185 00:13:05.080 --> 00:13:11.320 enjoy long form content, whereas I wouldn't expect a lot of people in my 186 00:13:11.559 --> 00:13:15.679 children's generation there and their s to read a Harvard Business Review Article. I 187 00:13:15.759 --> 00:13:18.720 just I just wouldn't, and that's a reality that I think we're all reckoning 188 00:13:18.759 --> 00:13:22.559 with. And HBR has known this for a while. They've scaled back from 189 00:13:22.600 --> 00:13:28.000 monthly issues to buy monthly. So they do six printed issues a year and 190 00:13:28.039 --> 00:13:31.720 even within those issues they have Experi mented with shorter articles and, you know, 191 00:13:31.840 --> 00:13:35.200 case briefs and things like that as a way to address this. And 192 00:13:35.240 --> 00:13:41.080 they also do podcasts, obviously you know so. So I think podcasts are 193 00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:46.320 solving a number of different challenges that we encounter. What we're trying to take 194 00:13:46.360 --> 00:13:50.440 complex ideas and make them relatable. That's great. That's great and it kind 195 00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:52.720 of is another, you know, kind of going into another direction here when 196 00:13:52.720 --> 00:13:56.240 we talk about, and you know, the authenticity and that mystique and and 197 00:13:56.440 --> 00:14:00.720 other elements around that, and I think that you know you and I talked 198 00:14:00.720 --> 00:14:05.120 in the preview with with troy in the pre interview, I kind of joked 199 00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:07.240 with you about the idea that so many times I have. You know some 200 00:14:07.320 --> 00:14:09.919 of my clients who bemoan a little bit to say, boy, if I 201 00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:13.639 were Harvard, I wouldn't have to mark it as hard and you know, 202 00:14:13.799 --> 00:14:18.399 you'd reference something about what's what you kind of call the H bomb. Tell 203 00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:20.039 us a little bit about that and how that relates to to kind of what 204 00:14:20.080 --> 00:14:24.679 I'm hearing on my end. Sure, so the h bomb is a by 205 00:14:24.679 --> 00:14:28.000 the way, I will say that when I got this job, you know, 206 00:14:28.039 --> 00:14:31.639 I called my mother, who my mother who is a huge fan of 207 00:14:31.639 --> 00:14:35.759 Harvard University and and she was elated that I got hired to work at Harvard 208 00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:41.879 Business School and she said, after a minute or so of congratulatory comments, 209 00:14:41.879 --> 00:14:43.399 she said, but wait a second, why do they need a chief marketing 210 00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:48.759 officer, which question I get a lot and I understand it, believe me. 211 00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:52.360 So I would say that the the H bomb phenomenon is something that Harvard 212 00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:58.240 Alumni speak about pretty regularly and it boils down to people who are affiliated with 213 00:14:58.279 --> 00:15:03.320 Harvard, whether it's faculty or or alumni or, you know, students or 214 00:15:03.320 --> 00:15:07.480 staff. They're always a little careful how they introduce that credential into a conversation 215 00:15:07.480 --> 00:15:11.919 because the Harvard brand, although it is wellknown and well respected and most circles 216 00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:16.200 it's also viewed negatively. You know, in a lot of ways people think 217 00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:20.399 about it as an elitist brand. They they think that people who are part 218 00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:24.679 of Harvard University are Ach you know, intellectual elites or academic elites. They're 219 00:15:24.759 --> 00:15:28.639 arrogant. You know, at Harvard Business School we hear about words like greedy 220 00:15:28.639 --> 00:15:31.679 and self centered a lot. I understand those perceptions exist and I'd be like 221 00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:35.360 candidly. I had some of those. You know, when you work at 222 00:15:35.399 --> 00:15:39.519 other institutions it's easy to look at a place like Harvard and say, man, 223 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:41.360 they've got it easy. You know, look at that endowment. Now, 224 00:15:41.399 --> 00:15:45.519 anybody who knows about endowments knows that you can't it's not like a bank. 225 00:15:45.559 --> 00:15:48.799 You can't go right withdraw money from the endowment. You need them. 226 00:15:48.799 --> 00:15:50.960 They're important, but they're also earmarked for a lot of things. So I 227 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:54.440 think a big part of our job, you know, those of us who 228 00:15:54.440 --> 00:15:58.840 are in marketing rolls across Harvard University, and I should just clarify I only 229 00:15:58.440 --> 00:16:03.240 mon't do marketing for the business school. Harvard is a very decentralized place and 230 00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:07.600 the law school has their own person and the Kennedy School and so on and 231 00:16:07.639 --> 00:16:10.279 so forth. But I think a big part of my job is to help 232 00:16:10.360 --> 00:16:15.360 knock down those miss perceptions about what it's like being at Harvard. We are 233 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:18.360 an elite institution and I think that's important and that's a big part of our 234 00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:22.840 identity, but we're not elitist, you know. We want the best people 235 00:16:22.840 --> 00:16:26.600 from around the world to come and study and work and teach at Harvard Business 236 00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:30.080 School. For us it seems very, very important to of as diverse or 237 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:36.399 group as possible, and that means diversity in every realm. So you know, 238 00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:41.240 the more that the better job that we can do helping anybody who hears 239 00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:45.240 about US see themselves at Harvard Business School. You know, that's important for 240 00:16:45.320 --> 00:16:48.720 us to continue to work on. That's great and I and I think you 241 00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:52.440 even talked about too that. You know, sometimes, you know anything something 242 00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:56.919 bad happens in business, eyes get turned a little bit to to HBS and 243 00:16:57.120 --> 00:17:00.720 kind of talk a little bit about that. Yeah, I think I told 244 00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:04.720 you I started in two thousand and eight and April and in October of that 245 00:17:04.839 --> 00:17:11.720 year Lehman Brothers folded and the world economic collapse hit and was very you know, 246 00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:15.240 that happened on a Friday and the emails that were flying around over the 247 00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:18.599 weekend. We're basically, you know, between the Dean and the leadership team 248 00:17:18.599 --> 00:17:22.759 were it's not going to be long before the world points their finger at Harvard 249 00:17:22.759 --> 00:17:26.720 Business School and says, why did you let this happen? And that is 250 00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:30.160 something that sort of goes hand in hand with beating, with being the category 251 00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:33.079 leader. You know, HBS is looked at us sort of, you know, 252 00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:34.640 one of the Pinnacle Business Schools in the world, and it is a 253 00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:37.759 couple of others that are in that rarefied air, but we're certainly one of 254 00:17:37.799 --> 00:17:44.400 them and it's understandable that when you know something goes wrong in the business world, 255 00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:48.880 the connective tissue between HBS and Wall Street is pretty strong and I, 256 00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:52.319 you know, I understand that people look at us for that. So we 257 00:17:52.519 --> 00:17:56.119 talked at that time and ever since then, where we face criticism like this, 258 00:17:56.680 --> 00:17:59.880 our first reaction is not to be defensive, it is to be a 259 00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:03.359 self critical, it's to look at ourselves and say, will wait a second, 260 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:06.279 is there some truth to this? Should we be thinking about what we're 261 00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:10.519 hearing here and should it in some way cause us to change the way that 262 00:18:10.519 --> 00:18:12.799 we think about how we do our jobs and how we educate students. So 263 00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:17.920 self accountability is kind of the first reaction and I would say that, you 264 00:18:17.920 --> 00:18:21.559 know, over the years there's been many instances and in fact there's been books. 265 00:18:21.720 --> 00:18:25.079 About every three years somebody writes a you know, a credible a book 266 00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:29.240 that's critical of the business school. You know, we always read that there's 267 00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:33.160 always going to be a certain portion of it that is a little hyperbolic and 268 00:18:33.279 --> 00:18:36.880 you know, and that we can even easily cast off, but there's almost 269 00:18:36.920 --> 00:18:40.680 always a kernel of truth to something that's in there and we have to be 270 00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:44.759 able to read that and then be circumspected about it and look at ourselves and 271 00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:48.599 make sure that we are being authentic to to what we say we are. 272 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:52.279 So that's kind of the the reaction that we have when those things happen. 273 00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:55.400 Yeah, and I love the fact that you know a lot of what's coming 274 00:18:55.400 --> 00:19:00.000 out of this conversation is the idea that while yes, it's a recognizable brand 275 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:03.680 and yes, you've got some challenges in the way that the age bomb and 276 00:19:03.720 --> 00:19:06.319 other things like that, at the end of the day it's a lot about 277 00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:11.839 managing that tension and managing those you know, the Classic Ven Diagram where you've 278 00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:14.920 got, you know what, what the world believes you are and who you 279 00:19:14.920 --> 00:19:17.680 really are and what they need and, you know, kind of finding that, 280 00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:21.319 you know, soft spot in the middle. It seems like that could 281 00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:26.640 be applied to really any school, whether it's a large elite school like hbs 282 00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:30.000 or whether it's a small private that has a few hundred students. It's really 283 00:19:30.039 --> 00:19:34.799 managing that tension of who you are, what you're known for and what that 284 00:19:34.839 --> 00:19:40.240 student needs. Yeah, I agree with that completely and I would say that 285 00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:45.839 every academic institution to some extent faces the same challenge that Harvard does. Harvard 286 00:19:45.880 --> 00:19:48.359 has it, Howard's been around longer than the rest. So I there's a 287 00:19:48.440 --> 00:19:52.039 term that we talked about called heritage brands. You know, and and and 288 00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:56.000 most academic brands are heritage brands to some extent. They've got a history that 289 00:19:56.039 --> 00:20:00.759 they that that's a really important part of their identity and their value system and 290 00:20:00.759 --> 00:20:04.559 and that history is important to hold on to. At the same time, 291 00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:10.279 if you let that be your defining brand characteristic, then you're kind of stuck 292 00:20:10.279 --> 00:20:14.039 in time and you can't really be looked at its innovative and forward thinking. 293 00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:18.119 So the tension that we're always trying to balance is, you know, Harvard 294 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:19.960 University has been around for three hundred and, I don't know, seventy plus 295 00:20:21.079 --> 00:20:25.440 years or something. Harvard Business School has been around for a hundred and fourteen 296 00:20:25.519 --> 00:20:27.799 years at this point. We Love Our past, we love our heritage. 297 00:20:27.880 --> 00:20:32.079 At the same time we don't want people to think that we aren't innovative and 298 00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:36.680 entrepreneurial. So we try to hold on to the qualities of the past that 299 00:20:36.720 --> 00:20:41.519 we think give us strength and demonstrate our leadership and at the same time we 300 00:20:41.559 --> 00:20:45.880 want people to know that we are thinking about the future of management education, 301 00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:49.839 not the past. That's great. In our previous conversation you had mentioned both 302 00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:55.400 some advantages and some obstacles that I want to make sure we revisit in our 303 00:20:55.440 --> 00:21:00.519 conversation today. One of them that was an a half for me is when 304 00:21:00.519 --> 00:21:04.240 you're managing a strong brand, or what's perceived to be a strong brand, 305 00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:08.759 there's an issue with not being able to create a sense of urgency, and 306 00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:12.079 I would like to know if you can let everyone know what you mean by 307 00:21:12.119 --> 00:21:17.400 that. Yes, happy to so. Yes, I mean one of the 308 00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:19.240 so it's great when things were going well and your brand is strong and it's 309 00:21:19.279 --> 00:21:23.400 well recognized. Of course that's wonderful and you know, we have the benefit 310 00:21:23.440 --> 00:21:27.799 of having very generous alumni who have been generous through out to us throughout the 311 00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:32.519 years, and that's why we have such a big endowment and fundraising base. 312 00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:37.400 I think the the flip side to that is it's hard to create a sense 313 00:21:37.400 --> 00:21:40.559 of urgency when there's no burning platform. You know, if you're in the 314 00:21:40.599 --> 00:21:44.880 private sector, if you're in a firm where sales aren't where they need to 315 00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:47.480 be and you know you're not going to make your targets, maybe you're a 316 00:21:47.480 --> 00:21:52.079 public company and you got to make your goal before the next quarterly report, 317 00:21:52.119 --> 00:21:56.200 it's in the marketing role. In those situations it's pretty easy to say we 318 00:21:56.279 --> 00:21:59.160 need more funds to go do this and fix this thing, or else we're 319 00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:02.279 not you know, we're going to be in real trouble. That urgency has 320 00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:06.599 never existed in that way at the time that I've been at Harvard Business School. 321 00:22:06.599 --> 00:22:11.640 In fact, the school had never run a deficit until two years ago. 322 00:22:11.799 --> 00:22:12.359 Was a two years ago. It might have been last year. I 323 00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:17.920 get my fiscal years mixed up, but when covid hit, like everybody else, 324 00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:21.200 we had to, on a dime, move everything to remote and that 325 00:22:21.279 --> 00:22:25.240 then we had to shut down our executive education program which was a huge cut 326 00:22:25.319 --> 00:22:27.880 hit to the school's financials as a result of that of, you know, 327 00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:33.279 twelve plus months of not having executive education, we ran a deficit one year 328 00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:36.119 and that was a big, big blow, you know, in terms of 329 00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:41.319 our ability to always operate as an efficient business, which we pride ourselves on. 330 00:22:41.599 --> 00:22:45.000 That's really the closest we've come to having a burning platform in the time 331 00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:47.640 that I've been there, and that wasn't something that marketing could fix. That 332 00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:52.039 one, unfortunately, I was a pandemic and we're still kind of facing that 333 00:22:52.119 --> 00:22:55.359 a little bit. So I think we often, I often find myself in 334 00:22:55.400 --> 00:23:02.000 the situation where I am really advocating for brand maintenance, and maintenance matters. 335 00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:06.359 If you don't if you don't maintain your foundation, your brand is your foundation, 336 00:23:06.440 --> 00:23:10.160 or if you're not working to make sure that that foundations day strong, 337 00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:12.759 then erosion will happen. You know, you have to actively manage it or 338 00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:15.920 erosion will happen. That's an argument that I'm able to make that I think 339 00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:19.400 people understand at the business school, because we take a lot of pride and 340 00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:25.119 making sure that we maintain our educational foundation and we maintain the foundation of the 341 00:23:25.160 --> 00:23:27.079 physical campus that we're on, because it's such an important part of what we 342 00:23:27.160 --> 00:23:30.519 do. So I found a way to kind of make that my argument and, 343 00:23:30.680 --> 00:23:37.200 you know, for investing in the Marketing Organization and an actively managing the 344 00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:40.000 brand might work for some of your other listeners. I don't know. That's 345 00:23:40.039 --> 00:23:42.119 great. I really like how that, how that plays out, and I 346 00:23:42.119 --> 00:23:47.799 think that that's a great example. And you're right. I mean the pandemic 347 00:23:47.799 --> 00:23:52.759 has impacted everybody and it's kind of even doubt a lot of a lot of 348 00:23:52.759 --> 00:23:55.799 those things and it's it's interesting to me that, and I'm sure a lot 349 00:23:55.839 --> 00:23:57.960 of ours listeners would find too that, you know, being able to pivot 350 00:23:59.039 --> 00:24:02.640 like that, I mean some folks weren't able to pivot. Means so many 351 00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:03.960 people say, oh well, we just went into our online platform, where 352 00:24:03.960 --> 00:24:07.960 there were a lot of schools that didn't have an online platform or didn't have 353 00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:11.559 you know, like with your executive education. That was not a possibility. 354 00:24:11.599 --> 00:24:15.599 So it's it's interesting that, you know, we are all trying to figure 355 00:24:15.640 --> 00:24:18.480 things out in this time as well. Sure another challenge that you face, 356 00:24:18.559 --> 00:24:26.480 Brian, is when something happens that's popular or maybe negative in the business community, 357 00:24:26.519 --> 00:24:30.240 fingers get pointed at Harvard, rightly or wrongly. Again, if you 358 00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:34.440 can explain that scenario and you know how you manage that or how that affects 359 00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:40.400 your role. Yeah, so you know, I think, I think for 360 00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:42.839 our first reaction whenever those kinds of things happen is that we want to take 361 00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:45.839 a we want to listen to what's being said, we want to take a 362 00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:51.000 hard look at ourselves before you know, I find that the inds, the 363 00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:56.359 the instinctual reaction of being defensive rarely works, and this is true in every 364 00:24:56.359 --> 00:25:00.880 place I've been, whether it's been in higher education or in the private sector. 365 00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:04.400 You know, you can't you can't be defense without sounding defensive, and 366 00:25:04.599 --> 00:25:10.880 oftentimes we find that there is some truth to what some of those those criticisms 367 00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:12.920 might be about the school. So the first thing we try to do is 368 00:25:12.920 --> 00:25:15.839 take a hard look at ourselves and say, because there's some truth, theories 369 00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:21.880 or something we should be doing differently as a way to address this issue. 370 00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:26.240 Our students are often, you know, challenging us on the decisions that we 371 00:25:26.279 --> 00:25:29.640 make as an institution, and I think every this was something we all face 372 00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:34.440 in high education, is that we've got smart, ambitious students. Were surrounded 373 00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:37.640 by them and they're looking at what we're doing and they're looking at us as 374 00:25:37.720 --> 00:25:42.279 examples of how to lead and they're going to challenge us when they think we're 375 00:25:42.279 --> 00:25:47.799 not making the right decisions. So again we try to take that posture of 376 00:25:47.839 --> 00:25:51.440 saying, well, let's take a step back and listen to what they're saying 377 00:25:51.519 --> 00:25:53.480 and, you know, if there's some validity to their concerns that we need 378 00:25:53.519 --> 00:25:57.359 to address that, you know. So that really extends into our leadership style. 379 00:25:57.440 --> 00:26:02.720 I think, generally speaking, unfortunate to be part of our leadership team 380 00:26:02.759 --> 00:26:06.480 that's been largely intact the whole time that I've been there. We've turned over 381 00:26:06.519 --> 00:26:11.400 a few key positions, but if you look at the way that the school 382 00:26:11.400 --> 00:26:15.519 has been run from the administrative side, that management team has been pretty solid 383 00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:21.720 and and I feel like we've been able to weather the storm through things like 384 00:26:21.799 --> 00:26:25.720 the pandemic and the black lives matter movement, which, you know, really 385 00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:27.759 caused all of us. That's probably a good thing to just pause on for 386 00:26:27.799 --> 00:26:33.480 a second. We had always talked about the importance of inclusivity and diversity and 387 00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:37.279 we believed it. I think, you know, it was important to us, 388 00:26:37.319 --> 00:26:40.240 but was always just kind of it was in the ether, but it 389 00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:44.240 wasn't really something that we were really doubling down on. And the murder of 390 00:26:44.279 --> 00:26:48.599 George Floyd and the and the the emersions of the black lives matter movement made 391 00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:51.920 us and pretty much everybody else go, wait a second, you know, 392 00:26:51.960 --> 00:26:55.759 there's something different about this. We really have to think hard about this. 393 00:26:56.119 --> 00:27:00.079 So, you know, this leadership team that unfortunate to be part of we 394 00:27:00.119 --> 00:27:03.880 really focused in on that and the Dean did and the academic leadership deemed did 395 00:27:03.920 --> 00:27:07.200 and we involved the students and I'm happy to say that the outcome of that 396 00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:14.839 has been a sustained, really intensive effort to improve racial equity across Harvard Business 397 00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:18.319 School, to bring in, you know, diverse faculty, to bring in 398 00:27:18.359 --> 00:27:22.279 a more diverse student population, and there's a plan that we've now got in 399 00:27:22.359 --> 00:27:26.359 place and we're following the plan and we're seeing the progress that's that's come about 400 00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:30.799 as a result of that. You know, that's a situation where the criticism 401 00:27:30.839 --> 00:27:34.640 was warranted and you know, we've done something about it. So I like 402 00:27:34.759 --> 00:27:38.480 that we're able to, I think, respond to these situations and rise to 403 00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:42.960 the occasion and, you know, I think it's important that that we all 404 00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:47.599 try to do that in our in our roles as leaders in these institutions. 405 00:27:47.640 --> 00:27:52.559 Brian, as we close our episode today, as everyone knows, we see 406 00:27:52.599 --> 00:27:56.640 Harvard as a gold standard. We like to ask for a last piece of 407 00:27:56.680 --> 00:28:00.279 advice for you from you. So, if there's a piece of advice that 408 00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:04.640 you would offer other marketing officers that they could implement right away, what would 409 00:28:04.640 --> 00:28:08.240 that piece of advice be? It's a really great question. It's a really 410 00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:11.079 hard question, Troy. Thank you. Thank you for leaving me with a 411 00:28:11.119 --> 00:28:15.160 hard one. You know, I'm going to give the advice that I often 412 00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:19.319 give two people when they start at Harvard Business School. I talked about the 413 00:28:19.480 --> 00:28:23.200 H bomb earlier. There's a there's another phenomenon that happens and I think it 414 00:28:23.240 --> 00:28:26.720 happens, you know, in all walks of life, not just at places 415 00:28:26.759 --> 00:28:30.720 like Harvard. But it maybe it's a little more, you know, intense 416 00:28:30.759 --> 00:28:33.960 at Harvard, where the students on the first day of class, where they're 417 00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:38.359 being welcomed by the Dean, will often talk about sitting there thinking, Oh 418 00:28:38.440 --> 00:28:41.960 my God, they made a mistake. How did I get into this place? 419 00:28:41.160 --> 00:28:44.720 What am I doing here? They picked the wrong person. And I 420 00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:48.440 think if you talked to pretty much anybody who starts a new job anywhere you 421 00:28:48.440 --> 00:28:51.559 know, who finds himself in a position where they've all of a sudden got 422 00:28:51.599 --> 00:28:53.880 new challenges and they've got to manage people, and yeah, they probably are 423 00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:56.319 thinking the same thing like, Oh my God, I faked my way into 424 00:28:56.319 --> 00:28:59.240 this thing and now what am I going to do? I've got to really 425 00:28:59.240 --> 00:29:02.319 live up to it and I've got a deliver. So, on the one 426 00:29:02.359 --> 00:29:07.960 hand, I would say that kind of you know self doubt is not a 427 00:29:07.039 --> 00:29:11.079 bad thing because it makes you really focus and think hard about what you have 428 00:29:11.160 --> 00:29:15.680 to do. On the other hand, I would say that from where I 429 00:29:15.720 --> 00:29:18.160 sit now, having been in, you know, different roles for many, 430 00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:21.079 many years, I'm not going to tell you hold I am, but I'm 431 00:29:21.079 --> 00:29:23.240 probably older than most of your listeners, I would say for me the one 432 00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:27.359 thing that has helped and that I tell other people to do is to listen, 433 00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:33.119 you know, really listen to what people are saying and listen twice as 434 00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:37.279 much as you speak. Leaders, some leaders have in tendency, I think, 435 00:29:37.400 --> 00:29:40.559 to feel like they need to solve the problem right away. You know, 436 00:29:40.599 --> 00:29:42.200 they need to commit, step into the meeting and, you know, 437 00:29:42.440 --> 00:29:47.720 and size things up quickly and show that they're decisive. And oftentimes, if 438 00:29:47.720 --> 00:29:51.680 you just let things play out and you let the conversation play out for a 439 00:29:51.720 --> 00:29:55.839 while, good ideas will emerge and, you know, maybe your job is 440 00:29:55.880 --> 00:29:59.680 just to facilitate those and to keep them coming out, and you do that 441 00:29:59.720 --> 00:30:03.759 by, I clear in the air and just kind of letting people offer their 442 00:30:03.799 --> 00:30:07.599 advice and insights and expertise, because chances are you're surrounded by pretty smart, 443 00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:11.559 capable people and if you give them an opportunity, you know, you might 444 00:30:11.599 --> 00:30:15.279 be surprised at what they're able to accomplish and then you just get the glow 445 00:30:15.319 --> 00:30:18.480 effect of working with them. So I would say my advice, something you 446 00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:26.000 could start right away, is to just really step back and listen, you 447 00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:30.000 know, with in ten thank you very much, Brian, for that. 448 00:30:30.079 --> 00:30:34.200 We really appreciate you being our guest on our fifty episode. We wanted this 449 00:30:34.279 --> 00:30:40.359 to be a special episode and you've certainly delivered for anyone who would like to 450 00:30:40.440 --> 00:30:44.160 contact you to continue the conversation or follow up on one of the points that 451 00:30:44.200 --> 00:30:47.799 you made? What would be the best way for them to contact you? 452 00:30:48.200 --> 00:30:49.640 Sure. Well, first of all, thank you for it, for it's 453 00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:53.240 quite an honor to be your fifty guest. I really do appreciate that. 454 00:30:53.319 --> 00:30:57.359 So so, Barton Troy, thank you for having me as your fifty guest 455 00:30:57.359 --> 00:31:02.599 and I've enjoyed the conversation. I'm happy to keep an eye of people can 456 00:31:02.599 --> 00:31:07.920 find me on twitter at hbscmoh. That's probably the best and easiest way to 457 00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:11.279 get to me, so happy to if they want to direct message even or 458 00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:15.240 that kind of thing, happy to respond great. Thank you. Thank you, 459 00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:18.799 Brian Bart do you have any words that you would like to leave us 460 00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:22.720 with on our fifty episode? Yeah, this has been created quite an episode. 461 00:31:22.759 --> 00:31:25.960 So, Brian, thank you. A couple things that I just wanted 462 00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:27.480 to point out and kind of pull out from some of the things that Brian 463 00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:32.079 had said, I think, so many times, and he kind of alluded 464 00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:34.640 this in several different points, but we all like to look at the other 465 00:31:34.680 --> 00:31:37.000 side of the fence and say, Oh, look how green the grass is 466 00:31:37.039 --> 00:31:40.160 over there, and boy, that would be a nice problem to have. 467 00:31:40.200 --> 00:31:44.240 And all, everybody has their own challenges. It doesn't matter if if we're, 468 00:31:44.279 --> 00:31:47.720 you know, small private college that we've talked to that I know a 469 00:31:47.759 --> 00:31:51.480 lot of you out there listening are small private colleges and I know who you 470 00:31:51.480 --> 00:31:53.440 are, as well as all the way up to, you know, the 471 00:31:53.440 --> 00:31:57.799 oldest institution in the country, Harvard University. We all have our own challenges, 472 00:31:57.799 --> 00:32:02.200 we all have our own victories in our own successes. Sometimes it's better 473 00:32:02.240 --> 00:32:06.279 to just kind of, you know, take a step back and listen and 474 00:32:06.440 --> 00:32:08.160 get your breath and just kind of go back to some of the basics of 475 00:32:08.160 --> 00:32:12.960 blocking and tackling and marketing, and so I think that was a really good 476 00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:16.400 point. You know, we all have different senses of urgency and sometimes you 477 00:32:16.480 --> 00:32:20.720 don't have that, which is another problem, and so I think that Brian 478 00:32:20.839 --> 00:32:23.960 kind of pointed out that there's a lot of similarity all the way through high 479 00:32:24.119 --> 00:32:28.640 Ed. I really appreciated him saying that the role of a high ed marketer 480 00:32:28.720 --> 00:32:31.920 is sometimes one of the hardest roles in marketing period, and I think that 481 00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:36.880 that's something that you might want to take back to your cabinet and your and 482 00:32:36.920 --> 00:32:40.960 your leadership and let them know that the CMO of HBS said this. So 483 00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:45.920 I think that you know, because we've talked to Ethan Braden at perdue and 484 00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:49.400 his notion of you know, we need to be the drivers on campus of 485 00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:52.400 the brand and of the marketing when it comes out of the marketing department. 486 00:32:52.440 --> 00:32:54.039 We can't be driven. We can't be the short order cooks who have to 487 00:32:54.039 --> 00:32:58.599 make it look prettier by Monday. So I think there's a lot of really 488 00:32:58.599 --> 00:33:01.279 good things to kind of tone in and take into these things and really kind 489 00:33:01.279 --> 00:33:06.920 of apply to your own campus. I also really appreciated just the intentionality that 490 00:33:06.920 --> 00:33:10.319 that I hear in Brian personally as well as in Harvard Business School, because 491 00:33:10.400 --> 00:33:15.279 we talked little bit about the Dei types of things, with inclusivity and with 492 00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:19.319 and with the black lives matter and the and the intentionality that that Harvard is 493 00:33:19.359 --> 00:33:22.000 put together with a plan. I think those types of things and even his 494 00:33:22.119 --> 00:33:27.759 last tip there where he talked about just the quite honestly, the intentionality of 495 00:33:27.359 --> 00:33:31.480 of improving your emotional intelligence, of being able to slow down, being able 496 00:33:31.480 --> 00:33:36.279 to listen when you feel like you might want to talk. I think those 497 00:33:36.279 --> 00:33:39.839 types of things of being an intentional marketer and intentional person, intentional member of 498 00:33:39.880 --> 00:33:43.559 the team, is going to be so critical. So again, thank you 499 00:33:43.640 --> 00:33:45.519 so much, Brian. Really honor to have you on the show today. 500 00:33:46.039 --> 00:33:52.000 My Summation Bart, appreciate that and congratulations to you guys on fifty episodes. 501 00:33:52.039 --> 00:33:53.759 By the way, I know as a podcaster that's a big number. That's 502 00:33:53.759 --> 00:33:57.640 a good one. Thank you, thank you, thank you very much. 503 00:33:57.720 --> 00:34:02.480 We are very proud of that and I want to thank everyone for joining us 504 00:34:02.599 --> 00:34:07.639 on another addition, our fifty episode of the High Red Marketer podcast, which 505 00:34:07.800 --> 00:34:14.920 is sponsored by Taylor solutions and education, marketing and branding agency and by Think, 506 00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:21.599 patented, a marketing execution company combining personalization and customization for your print and 507 00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:25.800 mailing campaigns. On behalf of Bart Kaylor, my cohost, I'm Troye singer. 508 00:34:25.920 --> 00:34:32.000 Thank you for joining our fifty episode. You've been listening to the Higher 509 00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:37.239 Ed Marketer. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the 510 00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:42.199 show in your favorite podcast player. If you're listening with apple PODCASTS, we'd 511 00:34:42.239 --> 00:34:45.599 love for you to leave a quick rating of the show. Simply tap the 512 00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:49.280 number of stars you think the podcast deserves. Until next time,