Staying Ahead of the Next Big Thing in Higher Ed Marketing

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:02.359 But at the end of the day, you know, you really started thinking 2 00:00:02.359 --> 00:00:05.759 about what the audience is and what they need. You know what their needs 3 00:00:05.799 --> 00:00:09.990 are and looking at it from the the the next big thing and being and 4 00:00:10.150 --> 00:00:13.070 preparing for the next big thing by understanding that we can always go back to 5 00:00:13.109 --> 00:00:18.309 the marketing principles. You are listening to the Higher Ed Marketer, a podcast 6 00:00:18.390 --> 00:00:23.219 geared towards marketing professionals in higher education. This show will tackle all sorts of 7 00:00:23.260 --> 00:00:28.179 questions related to student recruitment, don'tor relations, marketing trends, new technologies and 8 00:00:28.300 --> 00:00:32.619 so much more. If you are looking for conversations centered around where the industry 9 00:00:32.619 --> 00:00:36.369 is going, this podcast is for you. Let's get into the show. 10 00:00:41.170 --> 00:00:45.210 Welcome to another edition of the high end marketer podcast. My name is troy 11 00:00:45.369 --> 00:00:50.640 singer, here with Bart Taylor and every week we do our best to identify 12 00:00:50.679 --> 00:00:56.000 higher ed marketers to interview for the benefit of others. Today we're talking to 13 00:00:56.039 --> 00:01:00.759 John Drev's about the next big thing and content marketing and higher education, and 14 00:01:03.000 --> 00:01:07.030 it's no surprise that this is someone that Bart has had a history, a 15 00:01:07.189 --> 00:01:11.750 relationship with, but this time it's been for a lot of years. Yeah, 16 00:01:11.829 --> 00:01:15.510 try John, and I have known each other, I think, since 17 00:01:15.549 --> 00:01:18.739 nineteen ninety seven or uand nine hundred and ninety eight. We both kind of 18 00:01:18.780 --> 00:01:23.420 grew up in the Internet Marketing Range, the digital marketing range, and then 19 00:01:23.579 --> 00:01:30.219 both kind of share his father, Bob drevs, was a marketing professor at 20 00:01:30.299 --> 00:01:33.930 Notre Dame, at the Mendozes College of business, and we want an our 21 00:01:34.010 --> 00:01:38.010 FP at a previous firm that I was a part of when we were first 22 00:01:38.049 --> 00:01:42.290 doing college and highered websites in the late S. I think the Notre Dame 23 00:01:42.329 --> 00:01:46.170 website was maybe that my third or fourth high ed website that I had done, 24 00:01:46.689 --> 00:01:49.400 and so I got to know Bob drefs, he's he was a marketing 25 00:01:49.439 --> 00:01:53.359 professor at Notre Dame, and his son John, and many times when Bob 26 00:01:53.439 --> 00:01:56.640 and I'd be meeting he'd be talking about well, John says this because John 27 00:01:56.719 --> 00:02:00.000 had a marketing firm to that did a little bit of highed marketing, and 28 00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:04.469 so I got to know John Through his dad, Bob. In fact, 29 00:02:04.510 --> 00:02:07.949 I went to lunch with Bob. He's long since retired, and went to 30 00:02:07.990 --> 00:02:10.830 lunch with him, I think it perkins a few years ago when I was 31 00:02:10.909 --> 00:02:15.419 in the Notre Dame South Bend area. So really have always enjoyed Bob and 32 00:02:15.780 --> 00:02:20.580 getting to know John and John's been at Loyola for several years now. I've 33 00:02:20.580 --> 00:02:25.099 visited him on campus and and always follow him and really have an admiration for 34 00:02:25.180 --> 00:02:29.300 John and the work that he's done and and I think there's kind of a 35 00:02:29.500 --> 00:02:31.530 camaraderie in the sense that we kind of we're kind of the old men of 36 00:02:31.930 --> 00:02:36.129 the Internet now, and so it's a it's fun to have this conversation with 37 00:02:36.169 --> 00:02:39.090 him today and I think the listeners are going to find John Very engaging, 38 00:02:39.169 --> 00:02:45.759 very resourceful and this is a conversation not not only will be entertaining but will 39 00:02:45.919 --> 00:02:51.120 also have a lot of information for people to use. So, without further 40 00:02:51.159 --> 00:02:59.310 ado our conversation with John Dretts, it is my pleasure to welcome John Drev's, 41 00:02:59.629 --> 00:03:05.469 Associated Vice President of Digital Marketing and communications at Loyola University of Chicago to 42 00:03:05.509 --> 00:03:08.550 the Higher Ed Marketer podcast. John, before we get into our conversation, 43 00:03:08.909 --> 00:03:13.860 can you tell everyone a little bit about yourself and your role at Loyola? 44 00:03:14.139 --> 00:03:16.740 Sure, I've been in higher ED marketing for a little over a while, 45 00:03:17.659 --> 00:03:22.939 twenty five years now, and have been in a number of different circumstances. 46 00:03:22.979 --> 00:03:29.050 I started my career as a startup firm, leading a higher ed marketing experience 47 00:03:29.289 --> 00:03:32.889 consulting firm and then transitioned into a medical software company for a couple of years 48 00:03:32.969 --> 00:03:38.569 and then about seventeen years ago join lawyer University Chicago as a Web content manager 49 00:03:39.050 --> 00:03:44.280 and have been at Loyala for seventeen years now. So it's gone a long 50 00:03:44.520 --> 00:03:47.759 and story to time at loyalist, starting from a very rudimentary space and then 51 00:03:49.080 --> 00:03:53.520 watching the the Internet evolved to where it is today and the many challenges and 52 00:03:53.639 --> 00:03:57.629 obstacles that we faced in a lot of opportunities as well. That's great and 53 00:03:57.710 --> 00:04:00.550 I appreciate that. John, I know you and I've known each other for 54 00:04:00.870 --> 00:04:03.909 most of that time, I would think. I'm trying to think of when 55 00:04:03.909 --> 00:04:08.150 we met. I think it was late s when you and I met. 56 00:04:08.590 --> 00:04:13.419 Your father was a client of mine at Notre Dame Mendoza College of business and 57 00:04:13.460 --> 00:04:16.779 and they were one of the very first websites that we did in the late 58 00:04:17.300 --> 00:04:20.420 S, and so you and I had known each other through then and then, 59 00:04:20.819 --> 00:04:23.620 you know, gotten to know each other over the years, and so 60 00:04:24.220 --> 00:04:27.250 one of the things that I've always found and people ask me, and I'm 61 00:04:27.250 --> 00:04:31.329 sure people ask you too, is that what is that next big thing that's 62 00:04:31.370 --> 00:04:35.009 going to be in marketing and Higher Ed? I mean it's it's you know, 63 00:04:35.089 --> 00:04:39.720 you and I came from, you know, startups and and we were 64 00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:42.839 kind of the ones that people look to to to hey, what's that next 65 00:04:42.879 --> 00:04:45.519 big thing, you know, and then now that you're in your role, 66 00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:47.959 I'm sure that that's the same thing that other people in the cabinet and other 67 00:04:48.040 --> 00:04:50.839 leaders, your peers, are coming and saying what's the next big thing that 68 00:04:51.319 --> 00:04:56.310 we need to be doing to market to, you know, online students or 69 00:04:56.389 --> 00:04:59.750 traditional students or whatever it is? So what's your what's your thoughts? I 70 00:04:59.790 --> 00:05:01.269 mean, how do you answer that? Yeah, you know, you're absolutely 71 00:05:01.269 --> 00:05:04.990 right. The one consistency about the next big thing is that's people keep asking 72 00:05:04.990 --> 00:05:08.899 the question what is the next big thing? And you know, it's been 73 00:05:08.939 --> 00:05:11.300 a long time and, like I said, I've been in it for, 74 00:05:11.579 --> 00:05:14.860 you know, close to twenty five years now, and you know, it's 75 00:05:14.899 --> 00:05:18.379 gone through different transitions. It's been push technologies, it's been portals, it's 76 00:05:18.379 --> 00:05:21.529 been social media, and I always look at the next big thing, in 77 00:05:21.610 --> 00:05:25.970 the answer to the next big thing that it's less important what is the next 78 00:05:26.009 --> 00:05:29.649 big thing and how we're going to use the next big thing. And maybe 79 00:05:29.769 --> 00:05:33.610 this is because my dad was a marketing professor. We we always return to 80 00:05:34.170 --> 00:05:39.319 what are the principles of marketing and how do how will the next big thing 81 00:05:39.560 --> 00:05:44.480 address it right? And so the next big thing might be user generated content, 82 00:05:44.600 --> 00:05:47.040 it might be personalization and but at the end of the day, you 83 00:05:47.120 --> 00:05:50.189 know, you really start thinking about what the audience is and what they need. 84 00:05:50.829 --> 00:05:54.870 You know what their needs are, and looking at it from the the 85 00:05:55.269 --> 00:05:58.949 the next big thing and being and preparing for the next big thing by understanding 86 00:05:58.990 --> 00:06:00.629 that, we can always go back to the marketing principles. You know, 87 00:06:00.709 --> 00:06:04.019 when they talked about blogs as the next big thing, it was always this 88 00:06:04.139 --> 00:06:08.339 conversation of you know, what is what is the advantage of it? And 89 00:06:08.379 --> 00:06:10.819 we look at it from an audience perspective. Really, what they want to 90 00:06:10.860 --> 00:06:14.540 do is participate in your brand right. They want to have a voice, 91 00:06:14.620 --> 00:06:17.300 they have a an investment that they've made, especially in higher Ed if you're 92 00:06:17.300 --> 00:06:23.089 talking about perspective, or current students, certainly with alumni and donors. They 93 00:06:23.209 --> 00:06:26.889 want to have share the experience of the brand and so what does that mean? 94 00:06:26.970 --> 00:06:30.569 It means a two way communication flow. It means people being participatory in 95 00:06:30.610 --> 00:06:33.639 a process to be able to understand that. So, you know, those 96 00:06:33.639 --> 00:06:40.879 are marketing principles. Understanding and valuing what is important to your audience, understanding 97 00:06:41.199 --> 00:06:45.279 the marketing principle of differentiation. How can what we do be different than what 98 00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:48.670 our competitors do and what is the value of that for our audiences? So, 99 00:06:49.389 --> 00:06:51.430 you know, I don't really know. I don't have an answer today 100 00:06:51.470 --> 00:06:54.790 of what the next big thing is. Bart I'm sure it's going to be 101 00:06:54.870 --> 00:06:59.470 asked of me probably very soon, but I do have confidence knowing that if 102 00:06:59.629 --> 00:07:03.259 we were to approach the next big thing from a marketing principles angle, I 103 00:07:03.379 --> 00:07:06.500 think we're going to be successful and understand that, whatever it might be, 104 00:07:06.819 --> 00:07:12.379 it's going to be something rooted in understanding our audience, understanding what the message 105 00:07:12.420 --> 00:07:15.579 the media is. You know, if I didn't say the four peas, 106 00:07:15.620 --> 00:07:17.769 product, price, place and promotion, I think my dad wouldn't invite me 107 00:07:17.810 --> 00:07:21.930 to Thanksgiving dinner next week. But the very heart of it, it's really 108 00:07:23.009 --> 00:07:27.730 those things that we all learned in marketing principles one hundred and one. Yeah, 109 00:07:27.730 --> 00:07:30.120 I think that's a great point and I think that I think you're right 110 00:07:30.240 --> 00:07:31.879 because, I mean, if you look at it, just even look at 111 00:07:31.879 --> 00:07:35.279 the history of social media, I mean it was facebook. Well, before 112 00:07:35.319 --> 00:07:39.759 that was myspace and then it was facebook and then you know, and then 113 00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:43.600 you know, facebook kind of lost its edge because, hey, mom and 114 00:07:43.639 --> 00:07:46.069 dad and grandma start getting on facebook. So you know, I'm going to 115 00:07:46.110 --> 00:07:49.189 jump to twitter and then after that I'm going to jump over to instagram and 116 00:07:49.269 --> 00:07:53.910 then I'm going to jump over to tick tock, and so it's the yes, 117 00:07:54.029 --> 00:07:57.509 the the channels are different, they have different things. I mean you 118 00:07:57.629 --> 00:08:00.860 dance on one, you serve up pictures on another, but at the end 119 00:08:00.860 --> 00:08:03.620 of the day, the way you market on those is it's it's true to 120 00:08:03.699 --> 00:08:07.779 your point, there's a consistency of marketing, whether it's social media, whether 121 00:08:07.819 --> 00:08:11.660 it's a view book, whether it's a website. We have to have that 122 00:08:11.740 --> 00:08:16.329 differentiation. We have to have those different product price, place and promotion. 123 00:08:16.410 --> 00:08:18.769 We've got to have all those in place so that we can make sure that 124 00:08:18.889 --> 00:08:24.290 what we're doing and how we are communicating is ultimately for the end users benefit. 125 00:08:24.410 --> 00:08:26.759 Yeah, I think the other thing to think about when you talk about 126 00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:31.120 social media as a next big thing or the next big thing, is that 127 00:08:31.199 --> 00:08:35.240 they always go through these product cyclist right to your point. I remember back 128 00:08:35.240 --> 00:08:37.120 in the day it was my space and then it was facebook and you know, 129 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:39.200 we were trying to figure out how we were going to, you know, 130 00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:43.950 capitalize on facebook to be able to compel our audience to be able to 131 00:08:43.029 --> 00:08:48.230 do what we wanted them to do right. But then a transition and evolved 132 00:08:48.269 --> 00:08:50.909 in facebook became, you know, twitter, and twitter became instagram, and 133 00:08:52.230 --> 00:08:58.100 each one of those channels and and even even those mediums go through an evolutionary 134 00:08:58.220 --> 00:09:03.500 cycle where you start understanding social media as oh, we're going to post everything 135 00:09:03.539 --> 00:09:07.379 we possibly can to social media and you know we're going to tell them what 136 00:09:07.500 --> 00:09:11.649 we want them to know, when, in reality, as the life cycle 137 00:09:11.730 --> 00:09:15.450 of social media evolves, you start realizing the real marketing play here is engaging 138 00:09:15.490 --> 00:09:20.529 people in conversation. Right that you think about things like social listening and you 139 00:09:20.690 --> 00:09:24.399 use the channel of social media to be able to do a better job of 140 00:09:24.799 --> 00:09:28.960 telling the brand story of your institution. And so you know, those people 141 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:33.320 that are using social media as a one way communication flow, you're going to 142 00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:37.399 be in a situation where you're very quickly going to understand that it's not a 143 00:09:37.480 --> 00:09:41.990 message that or a channel or a medium that you can control as much as 144 00:09:41.029 --> 00:09:46.190 you want. We talked about a lot these days about the the challenge of 145 00:09:46.549 --> 00:09:50.309 social media being as a not zero risk platform. Right, that, because 146 00:09:50.350 --> 00:09:54.220 you're in a two way communication flow. There's opportunity for people to have dissent, 147 00:09:54.419 --> 00:09:58.860 right. There's opportunities for people to tell you what's really wrong with your 148 00:09:58.899 --> 00:10:03.539 institution, but it also is a very authentic experience for our audiences and being 149 00:10:03.620 --> 00:10:09.009 able to understand in and engage with our brand and understand that not only are 150 00:10:09.009 --> 00:10:11.370 we telling a story, that they can tell us a story back, and 151 00:10:11.450 --> 00:10:15.409 so I think it's very valuable to look at those kind of opportunities and be 152 00:10:15.490 --> 00:10:18.409 able to understand where are we in the life cycle of each one of those 153 00:10:18.409 --> 00:10:22.399 kind of things and wherever we are start getting back to those principles that we 154 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:26.039 talked about of engagement and the idea of how our positioning our product. You 155 00:10:26.120 --> 00:10:31.039 know, how we are looking at the the brand and what it means to 156 00:10:31.399 --> 00:10:37.230 our audiences. Yeah, John, one of the things that I like talking 157 00:10:37.269 --> 00:10:41.149 to Bart about is are with his back in the day stories and he started 158 00:10:41.269 --> 00:10:45.990 the episode by saying that the both of you have been in this since the 159 00:10:46.070 --> 00:10:48.629 mid s and known one another. So will like to ask you, and 160 00:10:48.710 --> 00:10:52.500 also to get him a share a little bit about some of the next big 161 00:10:52.700 --> 00:10:58.139 things that you've encountered over the years and those life cycles of things that have 162 00:10:58.259 --> 00:11:03.379 come up and then went away and maybe some learnings that you've gained from those. 163 00:11:03.419 --> 00:11:05.529 Yeah, absolutely, and I mean there's a lot of back in the 164 00:11:05.570 --> 00:11:09.049 day stories when you've been at it for twenty five years. I'm sure Bart 165 00:11:09.090 --> 00:11:11.690 would echo this that there's just so many. I mean there are. There 166 00:11:11.730 --> 00:11:16.929 are things that also have endured over that time. You know, search engines 167 00:11:16.970 --> 00:11:20.279 are a particular interesting thing to me, having been around from the very inception 168 00:11:20.679 --> 00:11:26.200 of Yahoo, even before Google was a thing, and I remember back in 169 00:11:26.279 --> 00:11:30.720 the day when Yahoo is more of a listing service than it was a search 170 00:11:30.759 --> 00:11:33.629 engine, and they would put a new site up there and you could put 171 00:11:33.629 --> 00:11:37.149 your little badge on the bottom of your website it was a yahoo preferred search 172 00:11:37.309 --> 00:11:41.029 or a Yahoo preferred site. My colleague and I used to go to Yahoo 173 00:11:41.070 --> 00:11:43.990 every single day and it just hit refresh because we wanted to. We're just 174 00:11:45.110 --> 00:11:48.460 start for all the new and cool sites that were coming out, and so 175 00:11:48.580 --> 00:11:52.100 we would hit refresh and we would look for every new thing that was list, 176 00:11:52.220 --> 00:11:54.980 you know, listed on Yahoo. Can you imagine going through a search 177 00:11:56.059 --> 00:11:58.659 engine and having basically come to the end of the search engine because it was 178 00:11:58.779 --> 00:12:03.809 there wasn't any other sites listed on it? It's just crazy. And my 179 00:12:03.210 --> 00:12:07.250 my favorite story about that is at one point is you know, I was 180 00:12:07.289 --> 00:12:11.929 an entrepreneur and we were starting this company. At the bottom of the Yahoo 181 00:12:11.970 --> 00:12:15.049 search page there was a call and said, you know, Yahoo is expanding 182 00:12:15.090 --> 00:12:16.440 and we want, you know, people like you to be able to come 183 00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:20.840 work with us out in California. We can't pay you much, but you 184 00:12:20.960 --> 00:12:24.039 know, we know you're a likeminded person. Come on out and send your 185 00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:26.919 resume in and we'll do this together. And I always look back on that 186 00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:33.190 as a missed opportunity. You know, I obviously transitioned out of the entrepreneur 187 00:12:33.269 --> 00:12:35.389 of spirit and have been at loyal for seventeen years. But did I miss 188 00:12:35.470 --> 00:12:39.750 my opportunity to have that Super Yat by getting in on the ground floor with 189 00:12:39.789 --> 00:12:45.620 Yahoo and getting some stock options from that day? So the thing that I 190 00:12:46.059 --> 00:12:50.700 that fascinates me about search engines is, you know, seeing them evolved from 191 00:12:50.740 --> 00:12:52.700 the time when they were a listing engine, right and they were just a 192 00:12:54.100 --> 00:12:58.419 collection of sites that were endorsed by Yahoo, to the point where it's search 193 00:12:58.500 --> 00:13:03.370 engine, you know, in Google and the the the enormous way that search 194 00:13:03.450 --> 00:13:07.649 engines began as a service and a tool and now it become an experience. 195 00:13:07.769 --> 00:13:11.289 And so google itself, if you ever call it a search engine, is 196 00:13:11.370 --> 00:13:16.399 really kind of shortsighted. It's more of a user experience company and they've recognized 197 00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:18.440 that. Now, I think they're alphabet or whatever, and they've got mail 198 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:22.919 and they've got search engine and they've got video and youtube and all those kind 199 00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:28.190 of things. So their storytellers again and you know, but it's still starts 200 00:13:28.190 --> 00:13:31.190 as a as a search engine, and it starts as an evolution in that 201 00:13:31.269 --> 00:13:33.629 product cycle of you know, what does that mean? And one are the 202 00:13:33.669 --> 00:13:37.429 opportunities they each one of those different ways that Google represents itself is an opportunity 203 00:13:37.470 --> 00:13:41.179 as a marketer to be able to understand a different way of either telling your 204 00:13:41.259 --> 00:13:46.340 story reaching your audience. And we still spend a lot of money these days 205 00:13:46.379 --> 00:13:48.860 on search engine optimization, even though it's been the next big thing for, 206 00:13:50.419 --> 00:13:54.850 you know, Fifteen, twenty years now, but it's still it's still part 207 00:13:54.889 --> 00:14:00.169 of that marketing makes it. You have to equate. Yeah, I remember 208 00:14:00.370 --> 00:14:03.409 talking about search engines. I remember that before Google it was Alta Vista and 209 00:14:03.490 --> 00:14:09.970 asked Jeeves, I remember. Yeah, and and you never could quite if 210 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:11.399 you couldn't quite find what you wanted to ask Jeeves, you go over to 211 00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:15.360 over to Alta Vista and you'd kind of you kind of kind of did this 212 00:14:15.519 --> 00:14:18.000 search engine surf until you found what you were looking for. And then I 213 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:22.000 remember talking to a client one day and they're like, Hey, have you 214 00:14:22.120 --> 00:14:24.509 heard about that new thing coming out today? This couple guys from Stanford Google. 215 00:14:26.029 --> 00:14:28.789 I'm like no, I hadn't heard about Google. And that's a weird 216 00:14:28.789 --> 00:14:30.669 name. Yeah, it's kind of a weird name. You gott to check 217 00:14:30.669 --> 00:14:33.470 it out. They've got a better search engine than anybody. It's just it's 218 00:14:33.549 --> 00:14:35.190 fine. Remember when search engines were such a big thing. And I won't 219 00:14:35.190 --> 00:14:41.620 name the university, but this we were undergoing a webrary design for our our 220 00:14:41.700 --> 00:14:46.299 university and we were, you know, doing some competitive analysis and trying to 221 00:14:46.340 --> 00:14:50.620 figure out what we should do in one of the institutions really just honestly did 222 00:14:50.740 --> 00:14:56.610 nothing more than put a good like a a search box in a submit form. 223 00:14:56.049 --> 00:15:00.129 They had gotten the point where what we'd got in the point we're trying 224 00:15:00.169 --> 00:15:03.009 to make an information architecture. And you know, you you wrestle with the 225 00:15:03.129 --> 00:15:07.480 about us, the academics, the admission, you know, the you know 226 00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:11.200 the standard approach to the to an institutional website. I don't know whether they 227 00:15:11.240 --> 00:15:15.639 were frustrated and through their arms up in the air or they were sheer geniuses 228 00:15:15.759 --> 00:15:18.799 that they were just going to put a search engine, because I remember that. 229 00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:24.110 Yeah, and everybody it was just it looked like Google. I thought 230 00:15:24.149 --> 00:15:26.429 it was the clolest thing in the world. I thought it was something that 231 00:15:26.629 --> 00:15:31.190 we should really consider and and you know I I I paid attention to it 232 00:15:31.269 --> 00:15:33.429 and I said, let's look at this and see where it ends up. 233 00:15:33.950 --> 00:15:37.740 But I saw what ended up happening was, over time, little things just 234 00:15:37.860 --> 00:15:43.500 started creeping up, like the the the master idea was a simplicity, right, 235 00:15:43.059 --> 00:15:46.700 that it was just the basic thing and everybody was going to get to 236 00:15:46.820 --> 00:15:48.860 something through a search. And then they had been enamored with Google and this 237 00:15:50.009 --> 00:15:52.009 was they we're going to do, but over time went and up happening was 238 00:15:52.049 --> 00:15:56.409 they would end up having, you know, a link to the president's office, 239 00:15:56.409 --> 00:15:58.169 or there was a directory here or there was something like there, and 240 00:15:58.289 --> 00:16:02.370 it became almost like a nascar where there were like little things that kept on 241 00:16:02.529 --> 00:16:06.240 adding on to the page until the point where I'm sure people who would have 242 00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:07.879 been in my position or art and your position would have been like, all 243 00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:11.039 right, we can't do it anymore. It just in a failed experiment. 244 00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:15.360 It's like one of those things where you're like, if you had just kept 245 00:16:15.399 --> 00:16:18.470 it pure, it would have worked. Except we all know and are challenged 246 00:16:18.549 --> 00:16:23.110 by the fact that there's so much request on that home page space. There's 247 00:16:23.149 --> 00:16:27.110 political challenges that you have to undergo. You've got an answer to a number 248 00:16:27.110 --> 00:16:32.309 of different you know, people asking you for space that it just ended up 249 00:16:32.350 --> 00:16:33.539 on the other side of it. And you know, I think it's so 250 00:16:33.659 --> 00:16:41.419 funny to watch those kind of progressions of different sites and I develop a sympathy 251 00:16:41.460 --> 00:16:44.019 for these people on the back end that are like, I know what that 252 00:16:44.100 --> 00:16:47.059 guy's going through, I know what that woman's going through, because I've been 253 00:16:47.139 --> 00:16:52.169 there and I fought that battle before. But Hey, good job and trying 254 00:16:52.210 --> 00:16:56.169 to try in it. Right. Yeah, exactly right. You know, 255 00:16:56.289 --> 00:16:59.490 it's fun to kind of think about, you know, the past and all 256 00:16:59.570 --> 00:17:02.200 the kind of the back in the day types of things. And you made 257 00:17:02.200 --> 00:17:06.039 a comment earlier about Google changing to alphabet and at the end of the day 258 00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:08.720 they're really more of a content company and and you can kind of start making 259 00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:14.279 an argument that. You look at apple and you know they shifted from hardware 260 00:17:14.359 --> 00:17:17.390 and now they are you know, one of the most popular TV shows on 261 00:17:18.150 --> 00:17:22.269 the planet is on an apple with with Ted Lasso and and so you think 262 00:17:22.269 --> 00:17:26.670 about these so many of these companies in so many places are kind of making 263 00:17:26.670 --> 00:17:30.059 a pivot into content companies, content marketing and things like that. So I 264 00:17:30.140 --> 00:17:33.099 mean, you know, we can kind of make arguments about the next big 265 00:17:33.140 --> 00:17:37.140 thing and things like that, but content has always been something very important and 266 00:17:37.299 --> 00:17:44.099 it's something that I think is really starting to drive more of what people are 267 00:17:44.220 --> 00:17:45.250 looking for. I mean, in a few weeks we're going to have Jay 268 00:17:45.329 --> 00:17:49.009 bear on the show. He's the author of utility and and I read his 269 00:17:49.089 --> 00:17:52.769 book, you know, probably seven or eight years ago and it really impacted 270 00:17:52.849 --> 00:17:56.130 me in the idea that if you answer the questions that your perspective customers are 271 00:17:56.130 --> 00:18:00.559 students or anybody else has, and you provide those answers and you do that 272 00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:03.319 in a consistent way, you're going to win at search, you're going to 273 00:18:03.319 --> 00:18:07.000 win another things, but it comes down to content. And you know Jay's 274 00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:11.880 company, convinced and convert, I mean he's had success developing that content strategy 275 00:18:11.920 --> 00:18:15.150 for for different companies across different verticals. Tell me a little bit about what 276 00:18:15.150 --> 00:18:18.789 you think about content marketing and higher at and where that's going and where it's 277 00:18:18.789 --> 00:18:22.589 been and what it is. Yeah, it's you know, it is, 278 00:18:22.829 --> 00:18:27.299 I mean maybe the the one thread line through everything that we've done over these 279 00:18:27.380 --> 00:18:30.339 years. Art is content. Right, content is king. I say it 280 00:18:30.460 --> 00:18:34.140 all the time and I think it's you know, when we look at it 281 00:18:34.180 --> 00:18:38.940 at loyal and we walk into do digital strategy with one of our schools or 282 00:18:40.059 --> 00:18:44.410 one of our departments, you know we talked about content as a driver of 283 00:18:44.529 --> 00:18:48.609 what we're trying to do, right, tell the story of Loyola. But 284 00:18:48.730 --> 00:18:52.450 in many ways we talked about content in two ways. There's process content and 285 00:18:52.529 --> 00:18:59.039 there's narrative content. Right, the process content is the stuff that is informational 286 00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:02.079 based, right, the you know, what are your admission requirements? What 287 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:04.359 are your academic what is the curriculum? Those kind of things, and certainly 288 00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:08.400 you can form that content into an experience, and the good ones really do 289 00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:14.269 like looking at that content and making it engaging and palatable and consumable and all 290 00:19:14.269 --> 00:19:17.549 those kind of things. But the other part of that content equation is the 291 00:19:17.589 --> 00:19:21.750 narrative content and that's the telling the story, and it's really the most engaging 292 00:19:21.829 --> 00:19:25.220 and exciting part of your website, in my opinion, because it's where you 293 00:19:25.299 --> 00:19:30.619 can differentiate yourself from those other institutions. What is different about an experience at 294 00:19:30.660 --> 00:19:33.220 loyal? What is different about how we approach research? What is different about 295 00:19:33.579 --> 00:19:37.569 how we do that? We well, we can make that differentiation apparent by 296 00:19:37.730 --> 00:19:41.410 talking about stories. And you know, the big thing I always lead people 297 00:19:41.450 --> 00:19:45.089 to talk about when we tell narrative stories is be person centric. You know 298 00:19:45.250 --> 00:19:49.529 so many times in higher education when we talk about telling stories, someone wants 299 00:19:49.529 --> 00:19:53.880 to tell a story about the department of x or, you know, the 300 00:19:55.079 --> 00:19:57.440 Institute for X, Y Z, and I always leave people back to think 301 00:19:57.480 --> 00:20:03.160 about telling narrative content around a person centric right. Tell me a story of 302 00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:07.430 impact for somebody. That begins with you know the problem that this person was 303 00:20:07.509 --> 00:20:12.670 overcoming and then tell me how your institute help that person. Right. So 304 00:20:12.750 --> 00:20:17.069 it always comes back to that. And I think the other part of that 305 00:20:17.269 --> 00:20:21.069 is when you tell those stories in that way, you can compel people to 306 00:20:21.190 --> 00:20:23.180 Action Better. First all, it's get it yet engage right. It's really 307 00:20:23.220 --> 00:20:27.019 hard to tell a story about an institute or a Department or an idea. 308 00:20:29.180 --> 00:20:32.539 It's a lot easier to tell it and engage somebody because they see themselves in 309 00:20:32.740 --> 00:20:34.460 that or they see the challenge or they see the passion, or whatever it 310 00:20:34.500 --> 00:20:37.690 might be. Because once I'm engaged with you, I can then get you 311 00:20:38.210 --> 00:20:42.250 to think about how you can participate in this story. Right, and that's 312 00:20:42.289 --> 00:20:47.490 the compelling part of it. So many times we talked about telling stories and 313 00:20:47.609 --> 00:20:52.119 content, we forget to ask what we want them to do. Right, 314 00:20:52.279 --> 00:20:56.720 if you want to make impact, like the Institute of Xyz, join us, 315 00:20:56.119 --> 00:21:00.559 support us, you know is fill out a form, whatever it might 316 00:21:00.599 --> 00:21:07.190 be, connecting the narrative content, connecting the process content to the compelling someone 317 00:21:07.230 --> 00:21:12.589 to Action. Because here's the bottom line. Doing content well takes a lot 318 00:21:12.630 --> 00:21:18.430 of resources. Right, telling stories well takes a lot of resources. If 319 00:21:18.470 --> 00:21:25.180 you're not compelling somebody to action through those using those resources. Your ineffective and 320 00:21:25.259 --> 00:21:27.859 inefficient being able to use those resources. And then it's you know, and 321 00:21:27.940 --> 00:21:33.289 then it gets into digital analytics and how you're tracking what stories are compelling people 322 00:21:33.329 --> 00:21:36.690 the most, what resonates with our audience, which one is getting the most 323 00:21:36.730 --> 00:21:40.769 likes on social media. So it Becu comes a digital analytics conversation as well 324 00:21:40.809 --> 00:21:44.690 and trying to drive back into those kind of things. But it all begins 325 00:21:44.730 --> 00:21:48.200 with content, right. It all begins with how we define content and when 326 00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:51.880 we we've talked about the evolution of the Internet, but I think you'd echo 327 00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:56.039 that content itself has, you know, have evolved in itself, like to 328 00:21:56.119 --> 00:22:00.589 your point of you know, the different search engines and experience engines and all 329 00:22:00.589 --> 00:22:04.109 those kind of things that people are are working on. Even the way they're 330 00:22:04.150 --> 00:22:08.190 doing content has changed and how people are engaging with that content. And maybe 331 00:22:08.269 --> 00:22:11.349 there's something in the next big thing in the contents their sphere as well. 332 00:22:11.750 --> 00:22:15.859 Yeah, I think you're right and I you talked about resources. A couple 333 00:22:15.900 --> 00:22:18.339 resources that I like and I'll just going to throw out Donald Miller did a 334 00:22:18.380 --> 00:22:22.539 great job with his book story brand kind of talks about, you know, 335 00:22:22.740 --> 00:22:26.420 that our our our perspective, student, our reader, should be the hero 336 00:22:26.059 --> 00:22:30.849 and we're simply the the Yoda to their Luke Skywalker to kind of help them 337 00:22:30.930 --> 00:22:33.930 kind of do their journey. And so I think that that's really important. 338 00:22:33.130 --> 00:22:38.369 And then another one that I really like is just being able to utilize. 339 00:22:38.569 --> 00:22:41.450 You know, there's a lot of things online with with content that you can 340 00:22:41.490 --> 00:22:45.480 certainly do some research on, and and and so I think that the idea 341 00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:51.079 of really kind of coming up with content, with storytelling, being able to 342 00:22:51.160 --> 00:22:55.200 kind of capture that and capture that well, is so important and I really 343 00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:57.200 appreciate you kind of bringing that up, bringing that up, John. So 344 00:22:57.829 --> 00:23:02.670 go ahead and let troy take it over. John. We end every episode 345 00:23:02.750 --> 00:23:07.710 by asking our guests to give us either an idea or a thought that they 346 00:23:07.789 --> 00:23:12.579 can share that could be immediately implemented by a fellow hired marketer, and I 347 00:23:12.700 --> 00:23:18.900 guess today would be maybe around digital strategy or how to stay in front of 348 00:23:18.980 --> 00:23:22.900 the next big thing. Yeah, I think it's the people that are most 349 00:23:22.940 --> 00:23:27.809 successful about staying relevant in this space are just thirsting for knowledge, right. 350 00:23:29.009 --> 00:23:30.930 You know, Bart puts a really good point on it. To be able 351 00:23:30.930 --> 00:23:33.930 to provide resources for people to be able to follow up and do more, 352 00:23:34.009 --> 00:23:37.930 and I'm I'm writing them down as you speak because you know, when you're 353 00:23:37.970 --> 00:23:41.880 looking at the next big thing, you got to be plugged into the places 354 00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:45.359 where people are going to identify it. Your point about Donald Miller is a 355 00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:48.799 great one. Like I have, I don't know him at all, but 356 00:23:48.920 --> 00:23:52.359 I've, you know, received his email newsletter all the time and I pay 357 00:23:52.359 --> 00:23:55.440 attention to those kind of things. You know, one of the other things 358 00:23:55.519 --> 00:24:00.710 that it brings me energy about this space is that, you know, higher 359 00:24:00.750 --> 00:24:03.670 at is weird in the fact that we compete against each other, but we're 360 00:24:03.670 --> 00:24:08.670 also very sharing with ideas and backgrounds and even just being on a podcast like 361 00:24:08.789 --> 00:24:11.579 that, and I appreciate Troy and Bart, you bringing this podcast. You 362 00:24:11.859 --> 00:24:17.539 are our group and paying attention to those kind of things because if someone else 363 00:24:17.619 --> 00:24:21.500 is doing it, they probably have faced similar challenges. There's opportunity to be 364 00:24:21.579 --> 00:24:25.650 able to learn from them and more often than not that they're sharing it right 365 00:24:25.769 --> 00:24:29.369 like we've all gone too those higher at Amas and you know edge, you 366 00:24:29.450 --> 00:24:33.809 web and edge cause and all those other things, and I'm always energized by 367 00:24:33.930 --> 00:24:37.640 people willing to be able to share those kind of stories of their experiences in 368 00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:41.599 the sense that, you know, we're all we're all sharing the same challenges 369 00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:45.000 many times, you know, we've got the same political challenges, we've got 370 00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:51.880 the same resource challenges, oftentimes we've got the same audience challenges, the same 371 00:24:52.039 --> 00:24:56.230 obstacles, that kind of thing, and I really energized by the idea of 372 00:24:56.390 --> 00:25:00.190 people bringing to the table and being willing to share that kind of stuff so 373 00:25:00.269 --> 00:25:03.309 that we can overcome them, even while we're in competition, right even while 374 00:25:03.349 --> 00:25:10.539 we're competing for those same targeted audiences, while we're still looking to be able 375 00:25:10.539 --> 00:25:14.299 to fill those seats with some of the similar perspective students or the alum night 376 00:25:14.339 --> 00:25:18.380 and donors, and it's just a great industry to be in and a rewarding 377 00:25:18.460 --> 00:25:21.849 one that I've been proud to be a part of for as long as I 378 00:25:21.930 --> 00:25:26.329 have. Well, John, I'm very grateful for you being on the episode 379 00:25:26.569 --> 00:25:32.450 and passionately sharing your knowledge and your recommendations for those who would want to reach 380 00:25:32.450 --> 00:25:34.170 out and connect with you. What's the best way for them to do so? 381 00:25:36.319 --> 00:25:38.680 They're always welcome to contact me at my email address. It's Jay drebs 382 00:25:38.799 --> 00:25:42.279 at Luc died you. I'm on Linkedin. You can find me through Linkedin. 383 00:25:44.680 --> 00:25:47.400 Think those are probably the best places to get Ahold of me and I'm 384 00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:51.829 always willing to pay the favor back to the many people that have been been 385 00:25:51.869 --> 00:25:55.710 beneficial to me and my career and would pay it forward to those people that 386 00:25:55.789 --> 00:26:00.029 want to reach out and have a conversation. I don't claim to know anything 387 00:26:00.109 --> 00:26:03.390 or everything, but I'm always happy to have a conversation and balance ideas off 388 00:26:03.470 --> 00:26:10.740 of people. Thank you, John Bart do you have any last minute thoughts 389 00:26:10.980 --> 00:26:14.059 or comments you'd like to share? Yeah, I just wanted to kind of 390 00:26:14.259 --> 00:26:15.380 point out a couple things. I mean, it was fun to kind of 391 00:26:15.539 --> 00:26:19.130 Walk Down Memory Lane with John and, you know, being able to kind 392 00:26:19.130 --> 00:26:22.890 of talk about, you know, days of Issdn and all those types of 393 00:26:22.890 --> 00:26:25.930 things. But the the idea that I think is really important to kind of 394 00:26:26.049 --> 00:26:27.410 take away as just the idea of this idea of, you know, the 395 00:26:27.609 --> 00:26:32.450 next big thing and the idea of content marketing. And so I mean you 396 00:26:32.490 --> 00:26:34.039 could argue that, well, content marketing is kind of the next big thing, 397 00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:37.880 yes, and maybe so and, but I don't like to really kind 398 00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:41.799 of put my thumb on something that's the next big thing, because there's always 399 00:26:41.799 --> 00:26:44.960 going to be a lot of next big things and they're going to change. 400 00:26:45.720 --> 00:26:48.869 I often in my presentations that I give I will start off with a disclaimer 401 00:26:49.309 --> 00:26:52.670 that says, you know, I might tell you something today that this time 402 00:26:52.750 --> 00:26:56.309 next year I'm going to tell you don't do that anymore and move on to 403 00:26:56.430 --> 00:26:59.789 something else because it changes. That freak that frequently and I think we all 404 00:26:59.869 --> 00:27:03.099 know that if we're in any kind of marketing, especially digital marketing, that's 405 00:27:03.180 --> 00:27:06.140 the case. But I think John Brings up a lot of really good things 406 00:27:06.180 --> 00:27:08.460 about just, you know, the basics of marketing, the four peas, 407 00:27:08.900 --> 00:27:12.980 kind of leaning into the the traditional marketing and then also, just as we 408 00:27:14.059 --> 00:27:18.210 talked about content marketing, same thing, leaning into that traditional marketing, leaning 409 00:27:18.329 --> 00:27:21.009 into the fact that we've got to be constant learners as we go into that. 410 00:27:21.130 --> 00:27:22.730 And we talked a little bit about Donald Miller and his story brand. 411 00:27:23.289 --> 00:27:26.730 Another one to a podcast that we did recently was with Jim Small at Notre 412 00:27:26.769 --> 00:27:30.200 Dame. He kind of did his five points of storytelling. A lot of 413 00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:34.359 really great resources out there and I think that, to John's point, being 414 00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:37.680 able to kind of take it to the next level and being able to lean 415 00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:42.039 into the resources, lean into you know it takes work, it takes resources 416 00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:45.829 to do content and being able to kind of, you know, prepare yourself 417 00:27:45.950 --> 00:27:51.190 for that and surround yourself with a lot of really good resources and in both 418 00:27:51.309 --> 00:27:55.589 content, like reading content, but also listening and being with other people about 419 00:27:55.589 --> 00:27:57.069 that. So, John, thanks for being a part of this today. 420 00:27:57.069 --> 00:28:03.819 Right pleasure. The hired Marker podcast is sponsored by Kayli solutions and education, 421 00:28:03.940 --> 00:28:08.380 marketing and branding agency and by thing patent did, a marketing execution company offering 422 00:28:08.500 --> 00:28:15.250 enhanced printing and mailing solutions to hire it institutions. On behalf of my cohost, 423 00:28:15.369 --> 00:28:21.690 Bart Kaylor, I'm Troye singer. Thank you for joining us. You've 424 00:28:21.730 --> 00:28:25.529 been listening to the Higher Ed Marketer. To ensure that you never miss an 425 00:28:25.529 --> 00:28:30.359 episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you're listening 426 00:28:30.400 --> 00:28:33.640 with apple podcasts. We'd love for you to leave a quick rating of the 427 00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:37.480 show. Simply tap the number of stars you think the podcast deserves. Until 428 00:28:37.559 --> 00:28:37.960 next time,