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Dec. 21, 2021

Staying Ahead of the Next Big Thing in Higher Ed Marketing

Staying Ahead of the Next Big Thing in Higher Ed Marketing

There’s always going to be a “next big thing” in higher ed marketing.

The important thing to remember is it’s not so much what that next big thing is that matters, it’s how you use it.

John Drevs, Associate Vice President of Digital Marketing and Communications at Loyola University Chicago, provides insights on how to keep ahead of the next big thing in this episode. Plus, he explains the ideal way to approach content marketing.

Join us as we discuss:

- Why marketing principles are fundamental to leveraging the next big thing

- Lessons from some of the next big things from the past

- Where content marketing is headed in higher ed

- Resources for keeping up with the next big thing

Resources mentioned during the podcast:

- Building a Storybrand

- Contact John: jdrevs@luc.edu

To hear more interviews like this one, subscribe to Higher Ed Marketer on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your preferred podcast platform.

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The Higher Ed Marketer podcast is sponsored by Caylor Solutions, an Education Marketing and Branding Agency, and by Think Patented, a Marketing Execution, Printing and Mailing provider of Higher Ed solutions.

    

 

Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:02.359 But at the end of the day, you know, you really started thinking 2 00:00:02.359 --> 00:00:05.759 about what the audience is and what they need. You know what their needs 3 00:00:05.799 --> 00:00:09.990 are and looking at it from the the the next big thing and being and 4 00:00:10.150 --> 00:00:13.070 preparing for the next big thing by understanding that we can always go back to 5 00:00:13.109 --> 00:00:18.309 the marketing principles. You are listening to the Higher Ed Marketer, a podcast 6 00:00:18.390 --> 00:00:23.219 geared towards marketing professionals in higher education. This show will tackle all sorts of 7 00:00:23.260 --> 00:00:28.179 questions related to student recruitment, don'tor relations, marketing trends, new technologies and 8 00:00:28.300 --> 00:00:32.619 so much more. If you are looking for conversations centered around where the industry 9 00:00:32.619 --> 00:00:36.369 is going, this podcast is for you. Let's get into the show. 10 00:00:41.170 --> 00:00:45.210 Welcome to another edition of the high end marketer podcast. My name is troy 11 00:00:45.369 --> 00:00:50.640 singer, here with Bart Taylor and every week we do our best to identify 12 00:00:50.679 --> 00:00:56.000 higher ed marketers to interview for the benefit of others. Today we're talking to 13 00:00:56.039 --> 00:01:00.759 John Drev's about the next big thing and content marketing and higher education, and 14 00:01:03.000 --> 00:01:07.030 it's no surprise that this is someone that Bart has had a history, a 15 00:01:07.189 --> 00:01:11.750 relationship with, but this time it's been for a lot of years. Yeah, 16 00:01:11.829 --> 00:01:15.510 try John, and I have known each other, I think, since 17 00:01:15.549 --> 00:01:18.739 nineteen ninety seven or uand nine hundred and ninety eight. We both kind of 18 00:01:18.780 --> 00:01:23.420 grew up in the Internet Marketing Range, the digital marketing range, and then 19 00:01:23.579 --> 00:01:30.219 both kind of share his father, Bob drevs, was a marketing professor at 20 00:01:30.299 --> 00:01:33.930 Notre Dame, at the Mendozes College of business, and we want an our 21 00:01:34.010 --> 00:01:38.010 FP at a previous firm that I was a part of when we were first 22 00:01:38.049 --> 00:01:42.290 doing college and highered websites in the late S. I think the Notre Dame 23 00:01:42.329 --> 00:01:46.170 website was maybe that my third or fourth high ed website that I had done, 24 00:01:46.689 --> 00:01:49.400 and so I got to know Bob drefs, he's he was a marketing 25 00:01:49.439 --> 00:01:53.359 professor at Notre Dame, and his son John, and many times when Bob 26 00:01:53.439 --> 00:01:56.640 and I'd be meeting he'd be talking about well, John says this because John 27 00:01:56.719 --> 00:02:00.000 had a marketing firm to that did a little bit of highed marketing, and 28 00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:04.469 so I got to know John Through his dad, Bob. In fact, 29 00:02:04.510 --> 00:02:07.949 I went to lunch with Bob. He's long since retired, and went to 30 00:02:07.990 --> 00:02:10.830 lunch with him, I think it perkins a few years ago when I was 31 00:02:10.909 --> 00:02:15.419 in the Notre Dame South Bend area. So really have always enjoyed Bob and 32 00:02:15.780 --> 00:02:20.580 getting to know John and John's been at Loyola for several years now. I've 33 00:02:20.580 --> 00:02:25.099 visited him on campus and and always follow him and really have an admiration for 34 00:02:25.180 --> 00:02:29.300 John and the work that he's done and and I think there's kind of a 35 00:02:29.500 --> 00:02:31.530 camaraderie in the sense that we kind of we're kind of the old men of 36 00:02:31.930 --> 00:02:36.129 the Internet now, and so it's a it's fun to have this conversation with 37 00:02:36.169 --> 00:02:39.090 him today and I think the listeners are going to find John Very engaging, 38 00:02:39.169 --> 00:02:45.759 very resourceful and this is a conversation not not only will be entertaining but will 39 00:02:45.919 --> 00:02:51.120 also have a lot of information for people to use. So, without further 40 00:02:51.159 --> 00:02:59.310 ado our conversation with John Dretts, it is my pleasure to welcome John Drev's, 41 00:02:59.629 --> 00:03:05.469 Associated Vice President of Digital Marketing and communications at Loyola University of Chicago to 42 00:03:05.509 --> 00:03:08.550 the Higher Ed Marketer podcast. John, before we get into our conversation, 43 00:03:08.909 --> 00:03:13.860 can you tell everyone a little bit about yourself and your role at Loyola? 44 00:03:14.139 --> 00:03:16.740 Sure, I've been in higher ED marketing for a little over a while, 45 00:03:17.659 --> 00:03:22.939 twenty five years now, and have been in a number of different circumstances. 46 00:03:22.979 --> 00:03:29.050 I started my career as a startup firm, leading a higher ed marketing experience 47 00:03:29.289 --> 00:03:32.889 consulting firm and then transitioned into a medical software company for a couple of years 48 00:03:32.969 --> 00:03:38.569 and then about seventeen years ago join lawyer University Chicago as a Web content manager 49 00:03:39.050 --> 00:03:44.280 and have been at Loyala for seventeen years now. So it's gone a long 50 00:03:44.520 --> 00:03:47.759 and story to time at loyalist, starting from a very rudimentary space and then 51 00:03:49.080 --> 00:03:53.520 watching the the Internet evolved to where it is today and the many challenges and 52 00:03:53.639 --> 00:03:57.629 obstacles that we faced in a lot of opportunities as well. That's great and 53 00:03:57.710 --> 00:04:00.550 I appreciate that. John, I know you and I've known each other for 54 00:04:00.870 --> 00:04:03.909 most of that time, I would think. I'm trying to think of when 55 00:04:03.909 --> 00:04:08.150 we met. I think it was late s when you and I met. 56 00:04:08.590 --> 00:04:13.419 Your father was a client of mine at Notre Dame Mendoza College of business and 57 00:04:13.460 --> 00:04:16.779 and they were one of the very first websites that we did in the late 58 00:04:17.300 --> 00:04:20.420 S, and so you and I had known each other through then and then, 59 00:04:20.819 --> 00:04:23.620 you know, gotten to know each other over the years, and so 60 00:04:24.220 --> 00:04:27.250 one of the things that I've always found and people ask me, and I'm 61 00:04:27.250 --> 00:04:31.329 sure people ask you too, is that what is that next big thing that's 62 00:04:31.370 --> 00:04:35.009 going to be in marketing and Higher Ed? I mean it's it's you know, 63 00:04:35.089 --> 00:04:39.720 you and I came from, you know, startups and and we were 64 00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:42.839 kind of the ones that people look to to to hey, what's that next 65 00:04:42.879 --> 00:04:45.519 big thing, you know, and then now that you're in your role, 66 00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:47.959 I'm sure that that's the same thing that other people in the cabinet and other 67 00:04:48.040 --> 00:04:50.839 leaders, your peers, are coming and saying what's the next big thing that 68 00:04:51.319 --> 00:04:56.310 we need to be doing to market to, you know, online students or 69 00:04:56.389 --> 00:04:59.750 traditional students or whatever it is? So what's your what's your thoughts? I 70 00:04:59.790 --> 00:05:01.269 mean, how do you answer that? Yeah, you know, you're absolutely 71 00:05:01.269 --> 00:05:04.990 right. The one consistency about the next big thing is that's people keep asking 72 00:05:04.990 --> 00:05:08.899 the question what is the next big thing? And you know, it's been 73 00:05:08.939 --> 00:05:11.300 a long time and, like I said, I've been in it for, 74 00:05:11.579 --> 00:05:14.860 you know, close to twenty five years now, and you know, it's 75 00:05:14.899 --> 00:05:18.379 gone through different transitions. It's been push technologies, it's been portals, it's 76 00:05:18.379 --> 00:05:21.529 been social media, and I always look at the next big thing, in 77 00:05:21.610 --> 00:05:25.970 the answer to the next big thing that it's less important what is the next 78 00:05:26.009 --> 00:05:29.649 big thing and how we're going to use the next big thing. And maybe 79 00:05:29.769 --> 00:05:33.610 this is because my dad was a marketing professor. We we always return to 80 00:05:34.170 --> 00:05:39.319 what are the principles of marketing and how do how will the next big thing 81 00:05:39.560 --> 00:05:44.480 address it right? And so the next big thing might be user generated content, 82 00:05:44.600 --> 00:05:47.040 it might be personalization and but at the end of the day, you 83 00:05:47.120 --> 00:05:50.189 know, you really start thinking about what the audience is and what they need. 84 00:05:50.829 --> 00:05:54.870 You know what their needs are, and looking at it from the the 85 00:05:55.269 --> 00:05:58.949 the next big thing and being and preparing for the next big thing by understanding 86 00:05:58.990 --> 00:06:00.629 that, we can always go back to the marketing principles. You know, 87 00:06:00.709 --> 00:06:04.019 when they talked about blogs as the next big thing, it was always this 88 00:06:04.139 --> 00:06:08.339 conversation of you know, what is what is the advantage of it? And 89 00:06:08.379 --> 00:06:10.819 we look at it from an audience perspective. Really, what they want to 90 00:06:10.860 --> 00:06:14.540 do is participate in your brand right. They want to have a voice, 91 00:06:14.620 --> 00:06:17.300 they have a an investment that they've made, especially in higher Ed if you're 92 00:06:17.300 --> 00:06:23.089 talking about perspective, or current students, certainly with alumni and donors. They 93 00:06:23.209 --> 00:06:26.889 want to have share the experience of the brand and so what does that mean? 94 00:06:26.970 --> 00:06:30.569 It means a two way communication flow. It means people being participatory in 95 00:06:30.610 --> 00:06:33.639 a process to be able to understand that. So, you know, those 96 00:06:33.639 --> 00:06:40.879 are marketing principles. Understanding and valuing what is important to your audience, understanding 97 00:06:41.199 --> 00:06:45.279 the marketing principle of differentiation. How can what we do be different than what 98 00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:48.670 our competitors do and what is the value of that for our audiences? So, 99 00:06:49.389 --> 00:06:51.430 you know, I don't really know. I don't have an answer today 100 00:06:51.470 --> 00:06:54.790 of what the next big thing is. Bart I'm sure it's going to be 101 00:06:54.870 --> 00:06:59.470 asked of me probably very soon, but I do have confidence knowing that if 102 00:06:59.629 --> 00:07:03.259 we were to approach the next big thing from a marketing principles angle, I 103 00:07:03.379 --> 00:07:06.500 think we're going to be successful and understand that, whatever it might be, 104 00:07:06.819 --> 00:07:12.379 it's going to be something rooted in understanding our audience, understanding what the message 105 00:07:12.420 --> 00:07:15.579 the media is. You know, if I didn't say the four peas, 106 00:07:15.620 --> 00:07:17.769 product, price, place and promotion, I think my dad wouldn't invite me 107 00:07:17.810 --> 00:07:21.930 to Thanksgiving dinner next week. But the very heart of it, it's really 108 00:07:23.009 --> 00:07:27.730 those things that we all learned in marketing principles one hundred and one. Yeah, 109 00:07:27.730 --> 00:07:30.120 I think that's a great point and I think that I think you're right 110 00:07:30.240 --> 00:07:31.879 because, I mean, if you look at it, just even look at 111 00:07:31.879 --> 00:07:35.279 the history of social media, I mean it was facebook. Well, before 112 00:07:35.319 --> 00:07:39.759 that was myspace and then it was facebook and then you know, and then 113 00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:43.600 you know, facebook kind of lost its edge because, hey, mom and 114 00:07:43.639 --> 00:07:46.069 dad and grandma start getting on facebook. So you know, I'm going to 115 00:07:46.110 --> 00:07:49.189 jump to twitter and then after that I'm going to jump over to instagram and 116 00:07:49.269 --> 00:07:53.910 then I'm going to jump over to tick tock, and so it's the yes, 117 00:07:54.029 --> 00:07:57.509 the the channels are different, they have different things. I mean you 118 00:07:57.629 --> 00:08:00.860 dance on one, you serve up pictures on another, but at the end 119 00:08:00.860 --> 00:08:03.620 of the day, the way you market on those is it's it's true to 120 00:08:03.699 --> 00:08:07.779 your point, there's a consistency of marketing, whether it's social media, whether 121 00:08:07.819 --> 00:08:11.660 it's a view book, whether it's a website. We have to have that 122 00:08:11.740 --> 00:08:16.329 differentiation. We have to have those different product price, place and promotion. 123 00:08:16.410 --> 00:08:18.769 We've got to have all those in place so that we can make sure that 124 00:08:18.889 --> 00:08:24.290 what we're doing and how we are communicating is ultimately for the end users benefit. 125 00:08:24.410 --> 00:08:26.759 Yeah, I think the other thing to think about when you talk about 126 00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:31.120 social media as a next big thing or the next big thing, is that 127 00:08:31.199 --> 00:08:35.240 they always go through these product cyclist right to your point. I remember back 128 00:08:35.240 --> 00:08:37.120 in the day it was my space and then it was facebook and you know, 129 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:39.200 we were trying to figure out how we were going to, you know, 130 00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:43.950 capitalize on facebook to be able to compel our audience to be able to 131 00:08:43.029 --> 00:08:48.230 do what we wanted them to do right. But then a transition and evolved 132 00:08:48.269 --> 00:08:50.909 in facebook became, you know, twitter, and twitter became instagram, and 133 00:08:52.230 --> 00:08:58.100 each one of those channels and and even even those mediums go through an evolutionary 134 00:08:58.220 --> 00:09:03.500 cycle where you start understanding social media as oh, we're going to post everything 135 00:09:03.539 --> 00:09:07.379 we possibly can to social media and you know we're going to tell them what 136 00:09:07.500 --> 00:09:11.649 we want them to know, when, in reality, as the life cycle 137 00:09:11.730 --> 00:09:15.450 of social media evolves, you start realizing the real marketing play here is engaging 138 00:09:15.490 --> 00:09:20.529 people in conversation. Right that you think about things like social listening and you 139 00:09:20.690 --> 00:09:24.399 use the channel of social media to be able to do a better job of 140 00:09:24.799 --> 00:09:28.960 telling the brand story of your institution. And so you know, those people 141 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:33.320 that are using social media as a one way communication flow, you're going to 142 00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:37.399 be in a situation where you're very quickly going to understand that it's not a 143 00:09:37.480 --> 00:09:41.990 message that or a channel or a medium that you can control as much as 144 00:09:41.029 --> 00:09:46.190 you want. We talked about a lot these days about the the challenge of 145 00:09:46.549 --> 00:09:50.309 social media being as a not zero risk platform. Right, that, because 146 00:09:50.350 --> 00:09:54.220 you're in a two way communication flow. There's opportunity for people to have dissent, 147 00:09:54.419 --> 00:09:58.860 right. There's opportunities for people to tell you what's really wrong with your 148 00:09:58.899 --> 00:10:03.539 institution, but it also is a very authentic experience for our audiences and being 149 00:10:03.620 --> 00:10:09.009 able to understand in and engage with our brand and understand that not only are 150 00:10:09.009 --> 00:10:11.370 we telling a story, that they can tell us a story back, and 151 00:10:11.450 --> 00:10:15.409 so I think it's very valuable to look at those kind of opportunities and be 152 00:10:15.490 --> 00:10:18.409 able to understand where are we in the life cycle of each one of those 153 00:10:18.409 --> 00:10:22.399 kind of things and wherever we are start getting back to those principles that we 154 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:26.039 talked about of engagement and the idea of how our positioning our product. You 155 00:10:26.120 --> 00:10:31.039 know, how we are looking at the the brand and what it means to 156 00:10:31.399 --> 00:10:37.230 our audiences. Yeah, John, one of the things that I like talking 157 00:10:37.269 --> 00:10:41.149 to Bart about is are with his back in the day stories and he started 158 00:10:41.269 --> 00:10:45.990 the episode by saying that the both of you have been in this since the 159 00:10:46.070 --> 00:10:48.629 mid s and known one another. So will like to ask you, and 160 00:10:48.710 --> 00:10:52.500 also to get him a share a little bit about some of the next big 161 00:10:52.700 --> 00:10:58.139 things that you've encountered over the years and those life cycles of things that have 162 00:10:58.259 --> 00:11:03.379 come up and then went away and maybe some learnings that you've gained from those. 163 00:11:03.419 --> 00:11:05.529 Yeah, absolutely, and I mean there's a lot of back in the 164 00:11:05.570 --> 00:11:09.049 day stories when you've been at it for twenty five years. I'm sure Bart 165 00:11:09.090 --> 00:11:11.690 would echo this that there's just so many. I mean there are. There 166 00:11:11.730 --> 00:11:16.929 are things that also have endured over that time. You know, search engines 167 00:11:16.970 --> 00:11:20.279 are a particular interesting thing to me, having been around from the very inception 168 00:11:20.679 --> 00:11:26.200 of Yahoo, even before Google was a thing, and I remember back in 169 00:11:26.279 --> 00:11:30.720 the day when Yahoo is more of a listing service than it was a search 170 00:11:30.759 --> 00:11:33.629 engine, and they would put a new site up there and you could put 171 00:11:33.629 --> 00:11:37.149 your little badge on the bottom of your website it was a yahoo preferred search 172 00:11:37.309 --> 00:11:41.029 or a Yahoo preferred site. My colleague and I used to go to Yahoo 173 00:11:41.070 --> 00:11:43.990 every single day and it just hit refresh because we wanted to. We're just 174 00:11:45.110 --> 00:11:48.460 start for all the new and cool sites that were coming out, and so 175 00:11:48.580 --> 00:11:52.100 we would hit refresh and we would look for every new thing that was list, 176 00:11:52.220 --> 00:11:54.980 you know, listed on Yahoo. Can you imagine going through a search 177 00:11:56.059 --> 00:11:58.659 engine and having basically come to the end of the search engine because it was 178 00:11:58.779 --> 00:12:03.809 there wasn't any other sites listed on it? It's just crazy. And my 179 00:12:03.210 --> 00:12:07.250 my favorite story about that is at one point is you know, I was 180 00:12:07.289 --> 00:12:11.929 an entrepreneur and we were starting this company. At the bottom of the Yahoo 181 00:12:11.970 --> 00:12:15.049 search page there was a call and said, you know, Yahoo is expanding 182 00:12:15.090 --> 00:12:16.440 and we want, you know, people like you to be able to come 183 00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:20.840 work with us out in California. We can't pay you much, but you 184 00:12:20.960 --> 00:12:24.039 know, we know you're a likeminded person. Come on out and send your 185 00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:26.919 resume in and we'll do this together. And I always look back on that 186 00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:33.190 as a missed opportunity. You know, I obviously transitioned out of the entrepreneur 187 00:12:33.269 --> 00:12:35.389 of spirit and have been at loyal for seventeen years. But did I miss 188 00:12:35.470 --> 00:12:39.750 my opportunity to have that Super Yat by getting in on the ground floor with 189 00:12:39.789 --> 00:12:45.620 Yahoo and getting some stock options from that day? So the thing that I 190 00:12:46.059 --> 00:12:50.700 that fascinates me about search engines is, you know, seeing them evolved from 191 00:12:50.740 --> 00:12:52.700 the time when they were a listing engine, right and they were just a 192 00:12:54.100 --> 00:12:58.419 collection of sites that were endorsed by Yahoo, to the point where it's search 193 00:12:58.500 --> 00:13:03.370 engine, you know, in Google and the the the enormous way that search 194 00:13:03.450 --> 00:13:07.649 engines began as a service and a tool and now it become an experience. 195 00:13:07.769 --> 00:13:11.289 And so google itself, if you ever call it a search engine, is 196 00:13:11.370 --> 00:13:16.399 really kind of shortsighted. It's more of a user experience company and they've recognized 197 00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:18.440 that. Now, I think they're alphabet or whatever, and they've got mail 198 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:22.919 and they've got search engine and they've got video and youtube and all those kind 199 00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:28.190 of things. So their storytellers again and you know, but it's still starts 200 00:13:28.190 --> 00:13:31.190 as a as a search engine, and it starts as an evolution in that 201 00:13:31.269 --> 00:13:33.629 product cycle of you know, what does that mean? And one are the 202 00:13:33.669 --> 00:13:37.429 opportunities they each one of those different ways that Google represents itself is an opportunity 203 00:13:37.470 --> 00:13:41.179 as a marketer to be able to understand a different way of either telling your 204 00:13:41.259 --> 00:13:46.340 story reaching your audience. And we still spend a lot of money these days 205 00:13:46.379 --> 00:13:48.860 on search engine optimization, even though it's been the next big thing for, 206 00:13:50.419 --> 00:13:54.850 you know, Fifteen, twenty years now, but it's still it's still part 207 00:13:54.889 --> 00:14:00.169 of that marketing makes it. You have to equate. Yeah, I remember 208 00:14:00.370 --> 00:14:03.409 talking about search engines. I remember that before Google it was Alta Vista and 209 00:14:03.490 --> 00:14:09.970 asked Jeeves, I remember. Yeah, and and you never could quite if 210 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:11.399 you couldn't quite find what you wanted to ask Jeeves, you go over to 211 00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:15.360 over to Alta Vista and you'd kind of you kind of kind of did this 212 00:14:15.519 --> 00:14:18.000 search engine surf until you found what you were looking for. And then I 213 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:22.000 remember talking to a client one day and they're like, Hey, have you 214 00:14:22.120 --> 00:14:24.509 heard about that new thing coming out today? This couple guys from Stanford Google. 215 00:14:26.029 --> 00:14:28.789 I'm like no, I hadn't heard about Google. And that's a weird 216 00:14:28.789 --> 00:14:30.669 name. Yeah, it's kind of a weird name. You gott to check 217 00:14:30.669 --> 00:14:33.470 it out. They've got a better search engine than anybody. It's just it's 218 00:14:33.549 --> 00:14:35.190 fine. Remember when search engines were such a big thing. And I won't 219 00:14:35.190 --> 00:14:41.620 name the university, but this we were undergoing a webrary design for our our 220 00:14:41.700 --> 00:14:46.299 university and we were, you know, doing some competitive analysis and trying to 221 00:14:46.340 --> 00:14:50.620 figure out what we should do in one of the institutions really just honestly did 222 00:14:50.740 --> 00:14:56.610 nothing more than put a good like a a search box in a submit form. 223 00:14:56.049 --> 00:15:00.129 They had gotten the point where what we'd got in the point we're trying 224 00:15:00.169 --> 00:15:03.009 to make an information architecture. And you know, you you wrestle with the 225 00:15:03.129 --> 00:15:07.480 about us, the academics, the admission, you know, the you know 226 00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:11.200 the standard approach to the to an institutional website. I don't know whether they 227 00:15:11.240 --> 00:15:15.639 were frustrated and through their arms up in the air or they were sheer geniuses 228 00:15:15.759 --> 00:15:18.799 that they were just going to put a search engine, because I remember that. 229 00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:24.110 Yeah, and everybody it was just it looked like Google. I thought 230 00:15:24.149 --> 00:15:26.429 it was the clolest thing in the world. I thought it was something that 231 00:15:26.629 --> 00:15:31.190 we should really consider and and you know I I I paid attention to it 232 00:15:31.269 --> 00:15:33.429 and I said, let's look at this and see where it ends up. 233 00:15:33.950 --> 00:15:37.740 But I saw what ended up happening was, over time, little things just 234 00:15:37.860 --> 00:15:43.500 started creeping up, like the the the master idea was a simplicity, right, 235 00:15:43.059 --> 00:15:46.700 that it was just the basic thing and everybody was going to get to 236 00:15:46.820 --> 00:15:48.860 something through a search. And then they had been enamored with Google and this 237 00:15:50.009 --> 00:15:52.009 was they we're going to do, but over time went and up happening was 238 00:15:52.049 --> 00:15:56.409 they would end up having, you know, a link to the president's office, 239 00:15:56.409 --> 00:15:58.169 or there was a directory here or there was something like there, and 240 00:15:58.289 --> 00:16:02.370 it became almost like a nascar where there were like little things that kept on 241 00:16:02.529 --> 00:16:06.240 adding on to the page until the point where I'm sure people who would have 242 00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:07.879 been in my position or art and your position would have been like, all 243 00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:11.039 right, we can't do it anymore. It just in a failed experiment. 244 00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:15.360 It's like one of those things where you're like, if you had just kept 245 00:16:15.399 --> 00:16:18.470 it pure, it would have worked. Except we all know and are challenged 246 00:16:18.549 --> 00:16:23.110 by the fact that there's so much request on that home page space. There's 247 00:16:23.149 --> 00:16:27.110 political challenges that you have to undergo. You've got an answer to a number 248 00:16:27.110 --> 00:16:32.309 of different you know, people asking you for space that it just ended up 249 00:16:32.350 --> 00:16:33.539 on the other side of it. And you know, I think it's so 250 00:16:33.659 --> 00:16:41.419 funny to watch those kind of progressions of different sites and I develop a sympathy 251 00:16:41.460 --> 00:16:44.019 for these people on the back end that are like, I know what that 252 00:16:44.100 --> 00:16:47.059 guy's going through, I know what that woman's going through, because I've been 253 00:16:47.139 --> 00:16:52.169 there and I fought that battle before. But Hey, good job and trying 254 00:16:52.210 --> 00:16:56.169 to try in it. Right. Yeah, exactly right. You know, 255 00:16:56.289 --> 00:16:59.490 it's fun to kind of think about, you know, the past and all 256 00:16:59.570 --> 00:17:02.200 the kind of the back in the day types of things. And you made 257 00:17:02.200 --> 00:17:06.039 a comment earlier about Google changing to alphabet and at the end of the day 258 00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:08.720 they're really more of a content company and and you can kind of start making 259 00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:14.279 an argument that. You look at apple and you know they shifted from hardware 260 00:17:14.359 --> 00:17:17.390 and now they are you know, one of the most popular TV shows on 261 00:17:18.150 --> 00:17:22.269 the planet is on an apple with with Ted Lasso and and so you think 262 00:17:22.269 --> 00:17:26.670 about these so many of these companies in so many places are kind of making 263 00:17:26.670 --> 00:17:30.059 a pivot into content companies, content marketing and things like that. So I 264 00:17:30.140 --> 00:17:33.099 mean, you know, we can kind of make arguments about the next big 265 00:17:33.140 --> 00:17:37.140 thing and things like that, but content has always been something very important and 266 00:17:37.299 --> 00:17:44.099 it's something that I think is really starting to drive more of what people are 267 00:17:44.220 --> 00:17:45.250 looking for. I mean, in a few weeks we're going to have Jay 268 00:17:45.329 --> 00:17:49.009 bear on the show. He's the author of utility and and I read his 269 00:17:49.089 --> 00:17:52.769 book, you know, probably seven or eight years ago and it really impacted 270 00:17:52.849 --> 00:17:56.130 me in the idea that if you answer the questions that your perspective customers are 271 00:17:56.130 --> 00:18:00.559 students or anybody else has, and you provide those answers and you do that 272 00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:03.319 in a consistent way, you're going to win at search, you're going to 273 00:18:03.319 --> 00:18:07.000 win another things, but it comes down to content. And you know Jay's 274 00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:11.880 company, convinced and convert, I mean he's had success developing that content strategy 275 00:18:11.920 --> 00:18:15.150 for for different companies across different verticals. Tell me a little bit about what 276 00:18:15.150 --> 00:18:18.789 you think about content marketing and higher at and where that's going and where it's 277 00:18:18.789 --> 00:18:22.589 been and what it is. Yeah, it's you know, it is, 278 00:18:22.829 --> 00:18:27.299 I mean maybe the the one thread line through everything that we've done over these 279 00:18:27.380 --> 00:18:30.339 years. Art is content. Right, content is king. I say it 280 00:18:30.460 --> 00:18:34.140 all the time and I think it's you know, when we look at it 281 00:18:34.180 --> 00:18:38.940 at loyal and we walk into do digital strategy with one of our schools or 282 00:18:40.059 --> 00:18:44.410 one of our departments, you know we talked about content as a driver of 283 00:18:44.529 --> 00:18:48.609 what we're trying to do, right, tell the story of Loyola. But 284 00:18:48.730 --> 00:18:52.450 in many ways we talked about content in two ways. There's process content and 285 00:18:52.529 --> 00:18:59.039 there's narrative content. Right, the process content is the stuff that is informational 286 00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:02.079 based, right, the you know, what are your admission requirements? What 287 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:04.359 are your academic what is the curriculum? Those kind of things, and certainly 288 00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:08.400 you can form that content into an experience, and the good ones really do 289 00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:14.269 like looking at that content and making it engaging and palatable and consumable and all 290 00:19:14.269 --> 00:19:17.549 those kind of things. But the other part of that content equation is the 291 00:19:17.589 --> 00:19:21.750 narrative content and that's the telling the story, and it's really the most engaging 292 00:19:21.829 --> 00:19:25.220 and exciting part of your website, in my opinion, because it's where you 293 00:19:25.299 --> 00:19:30.619 can differentiate yourself from those other institutions. What is different about an experience at 294 00:19:30.660 --> 00:19:33.220 loyal? What is different about how we approach research? What is different about 295 00:19:33.579 --> 00:19:37.569 how we do that? We well, we can make that differentiation apparent by 296 00:19:37.730 --> 00:19:41.410 talking about stories. And you know, the big thing I always lead people 297 00:19:41.450 --> 00:19:45.089 to talk about when we tell narrative stories is be person centric. You know 298 00:19:45.250 --> 00:19:49.529 so many times in higher education when we talk about telling stories, someone wants 299 00:19:49.529 --> 00:19:53.880 to tell a story about the department of x or, you know, the 300 00:19:55.079 --> 00:19:57.440 Institute for X, Y Z, and I always leave people back to think 301 00:19:57.480 --> 00:20:03.160 about telling narrative content around a person centric right. Tell me a story of 302 00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:07.430 impact for somebody. That begins with you know the problem that this person was 303 00:20:07.509 --> 00:20:12.670 overcoming and then tell me how your institute help that person. Right. So 304 00:20:12.750 --> 00:20:17.069 it always comes back to that. And I think the other part of that 305 00:20:17.269 --> 00:20:21.069 is when you tell those stories in that way, you can compel people to 306 00:20:21.190 --> 00:20:23.180 Action Better. First all, it's get it yet engage right. It's really 307 00:20:23.220 --> 00:20:27.019 hard to tell a story about an institute or a Department or an idea. 308 00:20:29.180 --> 00:20:32.539 It's a lot easier to tell it and engage somebody because they see themselves in 309 00:20:32.740 --> 00:20:34.460 that or they see the challenge or they see the passion, or whatever it 310 00:20:34.500 --> 00:20:37.690 might be. Because once I'm engaged with you, I can then get you 311 00:20:38.210 --> 00:20:42.250 to think about how you can participate in this story. Right, and that's 312 00:20:42.289 --> 00:20:47.490 the compelling part of it. So many times we talked about telling stories and 313 00:20:47.609 --> 00:20:52.119 content, we forget to ask what we want them to do. Right, 314 00:20:52.279 --> 00:20:56.720 if you want to make impact, like the Institute of Xyz, join us, 315 00:20:56.119 --> 00:21:00.559 support us, you know is fill out a form, whatever it might 316 00:21:00.599 --> 00:21:07.190 be, connecting the narrative content, connecting the process content to the compelling someone 317 00:21:07.230 --> 00:21:12.589 to Action. Because here's the bottom line. Doing content well takes a lot 318 00:21:12.630 --> 00:21:18.430 of resources. Right, telling stories well takes a lot of resources. If 319 00:21:18.470 --> 00:21:25.180 you're not compelling somebody to action through those using those resources. Your ineffective and 320 00:21:25.259 --> 00:21:27.859 inefficient being able to use those resources. And then it's you know, and 321 00:21:27.940 --> 00:21:33.289 then it gets into digital analytics and how you're tracking what stories are compelling people 322 00:21:33.329 --> 00:21:36.690 the most, what resonates with our audience, which one is getting the most 323 00:21:36.730 --> 00:21:40.769 likes on social media. So it Becu comes a digital analytics conversation as well 324 00:21:40.809 --> 00:21:44.690 and trying to drive back into those kind of things. But it all begins 325 00:21:44.730 --> 00:21:48.200 with content, right. It all begins with how we define content and when 326 00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:51.880 we we've talked about the evolution of the Internet, but I think you'd echo 327 00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:56.039 that content itself has, you know, have evolved in itself, like to 328 00:21:56.119 --> 00:22:00.589 your point of you know, the different search engines and experience engines and all 329 00:22:00.589 --> 00:22:04.109 those kind of things that people are are working on. Even the way they're 330 00:22:04.150 --> 00:22:08.190 doing content has changed and how people are engaging with that content. And maybe 331 00:22:08.269 --> 00:22:11.349 there's something in the next big thing in the contents their sphere as well. 332 00:22:11.750 --> 00:22:15.859 Yeah, I think you're right and I you talked about resources. A couple 333 00:22:15.900 --> 00:22:18.339 resources that I like and I'll just going to throw out Donald Miller did a 334 00:22:18.380 --> 00:22:22.539 great job with his book story brand kind of talks about, you know, 335 00:22:22.740 --> 00:22:26.420 that our our our perspective, student, our reader, should be the hero 336 00:22:26.059 --> 00:22:30.849 and we're simply the the Yoda to their Luke Skywalker to kind of help them 337 00:22:30.930 --> 00:22:33.930 kind of do their journey. And so I think that that's really important. 338 00:22:33.130 --> 00:22:38.369 And then another one that I really like is just being able to utilize. 339 00:22:38.569 --> 00:22:41.450 You know, there's a lot of things online with with content that you can 340 00:22:41.490 --> 00:22:45.480 certainly do some research on, and and and so I think that the idea 341 00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:51.079 of really kind of coming up with content, with storytelling, being able to 342 00:22:51.160 --> 00:22:55.200 kind of capture that and capture that well, is so important and I really 343 00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:57.200 appreciate you kind of bringing that up, bringing that up, John. So 344 00:22:57.829 --> 00:23:02.670 go ahead and let troy take it over. John. We end every episode 345 00:23:02.750 --> 00:23:07.710 by asking our guests to give us either an idea or a thought that they 346 00:23:07.789 --> 00:23:12.579 can share that could be immediately implemented by a fellow hired marketer, and I 347 00:23:12.700 --> 00:23:18.900 guess today would be maybe around digital strategy or how to stay in front of 348 00:23:18.980 --> 00:23:22.900 the next big thing. Yeah, I think it's the people that are most 349 00:23:22.940 --> 00:23:27.809 successful about staying relevant in this space are just thirsting for knowledge, right. 350 00:23:29.009 --> 00:23:30.930 You know, Bart puts a really good point on it. To be able 351 00:23:30.930 --> 00:23:33.930 to provide resources for people to be able to follow up and do more, 352 00:23:34.009 --> 00:23:37.930 and I'm I'm writing them down as you speak because you know, when you're 353 00:23:37.970 --> 00:23:41.880 looking at the next big thing, you got to be plugged into the places 354 00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:45.359 where people are going to identify it. Your point about Donald Miller is a 355 00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:48.799 great one. Like I have, I don't know him at all, but 356 00:23:48.920 --> 00:23:52.359 I've, you know, received his email newsletter all the time and I pay 357 00:23:52.359 --> 00:23:55.440 attention to those kind of things. You know, one of the other things 358 00:23:55.519 --> 00:24:00.710 that it brings me energy about this space is that, you know, higher 359 00:24:00.750 --> 00:24:03.670 at is weird in the fact that we compete against each other, but we're 360 00:24:03.670 --> 00:24:08.670 also very sharing with ideas and backgrounds and even just being on a podcast like 361 00:24:08.789 --> 00:24:11.579 that, and I appreciate Troy and Bart, you bringing this podcast. You 362 00:24:11.859 --> 00:24:17.539 are our group and paying attention to those kind of things because if someone else 363 00:24:17.619 --> 00:24:21.500 is doing it, they probably have faced similar challenges. There's opportunity to be 364 00:24:21.579 --> 00:24:25.650 able to learn from them and more often than not that they're sharing it right 365 00:24:25.769 --> 00:24:29.369 like we've all gone too those higher at Amas and you know edge, you 366 00:24:29.450 --> 00:24:33.809 web and edge cause and all those other things, and I'm always energized by 367 00:24:33.930 --> 00:24:37.640 people willing to be able to share those kind of stories of their experiences in 368 00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:41.599 the sense that, you know, we're all we're all sharing the same challenges 369 00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:45.000 many times, you know, we've got the same political challenges, we've got 370 00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:51.880 the same resource challenges, oftentimes we've got the same audience challenges, the same 371 00:24:52.039 --> 00:24:56.230 obstacles, that kind of thing, and I really energized by the idea of 372 00:24:56.390 --> 00:25:00.190 people bringing to the table and being willing to share that kind of stuff so 373 00:25:00.269 --> 00:25:03.309 that we can overcome them, even while we're in competition, right even while 374 00:25:03.349 --> 00:25:10.539 we're competing for those same targeted audiences, while we're still looking to be able 375 00:25:10.539 --> 00:25:14.299 to fill those seats with some of the similar perspective students or the alum night 376 00:25:14.339 --> 00:25:18.380 and donors, and it's just a great industry to be in and a rewarding 377 00:25:18.460 --> 00:25:21.849 one that I've been proud to be a part of for as long as I 378 00:25:21.930 --> 00:25:26.329 have. Well, John, I'm very grateful for you being on the episode 379 00:25:26.569 --> 00:25:32.450 and passionately sharing your knowledge and your recommendations for those who would want to reach 380 00:25:32.450 --> 00:25:34.170 out and connect with you. What's the best way for them to do so? 381 00:25:36.319 --> 00:25:38.680 They're always welcome to contact me at my email address. It's Jay drebs 382 00:25:38.799 --> 00:25:42.279 at Luc died you. I'm on Linkedin. You can find me through Linkedin. 383 00:25:44.680 --> 00:25:47.400 Think those are probably the best places to get Ahold of me and I'm 384 00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:51.829 always willing to pay the favor back to the many people that have been been 385 00:25:51.869 --> 00:25:55.710 beneficial to me and my career and would pay it forward to those people that 386 00:25:55.789 --> 00:26:00.029 want to reach out and have a conversation. I don't claim to know anything 387 00:26:00.109 --> 00:26:03.390 or everything, but I'm always happy to have a conversation and balance ideas off 388 00:26:03.470 --> 00:26:10.740 of people. Thank you, John Bart do you have any last minute thoughts 389 00:26:10.980 --> 00:26:14.059 or comments you'd like to share? Yeah, I just wanted to kind of 390 00:26:14.259 --> 00:26:15.380 point out a couple things. I mean, it was fun to kind of 391 00:26:15.539 --> 00:26:19.130 Walk Down Memory Lane with John and, you know, being able to kind 392 00:26:19.130 --> 00:26:22.890 of talk about, you know, days of Issdn and all those types of 393 00:26:22.890 --> 00:26:25.930 things. But the the idea that I think is really important to kind of 394 00:26:26.049 --> 00:26:27.410 take away as just the idea of this idea of, you know, the 395 00:26:27.609 --> 00:26:32.450 next big thing and the idea of content marketing. And so I mean you 396 00:26:32.490 --> 00:26:34.039 could argue that, well, content marketing is kind of the next big thing, 397 00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:37.880 yes, and maybe so and, but I don't like to really kind 398 00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:41.799 of put my thumb on something that's the next big thing, because there's always 399 00:26:41.799 --> 00:26:44.960 going to be a lot of next big things and they're going to change. 400 00:26:45.720 --> 00:26:48.869 I often in my presentations that I give I will start off with a disclaimer 401 00:26:49.309 --> 00:26:52.670 that says, you know, I might tell you something today that this time 402 00:26:52.750 --> 00:26:56.309 next year I'm going to tell you don't do that anymore and move on to 403 00:26:56.430 --> 00:26:59.789 something else because it changes. That freak that frequently and I think we all 404 00:26:59.869 --> 00:27:03.099 know that if we're in any kind of marketing, especially digital marketing, that's 405 00:27:03.180 --> 00:27:06.140 the case. But I think John Brings up a lot of really good things 406 00:27:06.180 --> 00:27:08.460 about just, you know, the basics of marketing, the four peas, 407 00:27:08.900 --> 00:27:12.980 kind of leaning into the the traditional marketing and then also, just as we 408 00:27:14.059 --> 00:27:18.210 talked about content marketing, same thing, leaning into that traditional marketing, leaning 409 00:27:18.329 --> 00:27:21.009 into the fact that we've got to be constant learners as we go into that. 410 00:27:21.130 --> 00:27:22.730 And we talked a little bit about Donald Miller and his story brand. 411 00:27:23.289 --> 00:27:26.730 Another one to a podcast that we did recently was with Jim Small at Notre 412 00:27:26.769 --> 00:27:30.200 Dame. He kind of did his five points of storytelling. A lot of 413 00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:34.359 really great resources out there and I think that, to John's point, being 414 00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:37.680 able to kind of take it to the next level and being able to lean 415 00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:42.039 into the resources, lean into you know it takes work, it takes resources 416 00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:45.829 to do content and being able to kind of, you know, prepare yourself 417 00:27:45.950 --> 00:27:51.190 for that and surround yourself with a lot of really good resources and in both 418 00:27:51.309 --> 00:27:55.589 content, like reading content, but also listening and being with other people about 419 00:27:55.589 --> 00:27:57.069 that. So, John, thanks for being a part of this today. 420 00:27:57.069 --> 00:28:03.819 Right pleasure. The hired Marker podcast is sponsored by Kayli solutions and education, 421 00:28:03.940 --> 00:28:08.380 marketing and branding agency and by thing patent did, a marketing execution company offering 422 00:28:08.500 --> 00:28:15.250 enhanced printing and mailing solutions to hire it institutions. On behalf of my cohost, 423 00:28:15.369 --> 00:28:21.690 Bart Kaylor, I'm Troye singer. Thank you for joining us. You've 424 00:28:21.730 --> 00:28:25.529 been listening to the Higher Ed Marketer. To ensure that you never miss an 425 00:28:25.529 --> 00:28:30.359 episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you're listening 426 00:28:30.400 --> 00:28:33.640 with apple podcasts. We'd love for you to leave a quick rating of the 427 00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:37.480 show. Simply tap the number of stars you think the podcast deserves. Until 428 00:28:37.559 --> 00:28:37.960 next time,