Diversify Classrooms Through Authentic Messaging

WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.919 --> 00:00:07.240 You are listening to the Higher Ed Marketer, a podcast geared towards marketing professionals 2 00:00:07.280 --> 00:00:12.000 in higher education. This show will tackle all sorts of questions related to student 3 00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:16.800 recruitment, donor relations, marketing trends, new technologies and so much more. 4 00:00:17.079 --> 00:00:21.000 If you are looking for conversations centered around where the industry is going, this 5 00:00:21.039 --> 00:00:29.120 podcast is for you. Let's get into the show. Welcome to the Higher 6 00:00:29.199 --> 00:00:32.880 Ed Marker podcast. I'm troy singer here with my cohost, Bart Taylor, 7 00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:37.520 and every week we interview high reed marketers that we admire for the benefit and 8 00:00:37.560 --> 00:00:42.119 hopefully the betterment of the entire Higher Ed community. Today we have a very 9 00:00:42.320 --> 00:00:47.359 dynamic guest. It's Dr Tim Bowling, who is the chief marketing and graduate 10 00:00:47.479 --> 00:00:53.600 enrollment officer and also a teaching professor at the Mendoza School of Business and marketing 11 00:00:53.600 --> 00:00:59.600 at Notre Dame. He brings it with his presentation today. He really does. 12 00:00:59.640 --> 00:01:03.040 He's got such a dynamic presentation. You can tell that he really knows 13 00:01:03.040 --> 00:01:07.599 what he's talking about. He's developed what he calls the smart marketing playbook out 14 00:01:07.640 --> 00:01:11.760 of his years and years of experience and industry. He's one of those individuals, 15 00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:15.560 like many of the guests that we've had and and people that I know 16 00:01:15.599 --> 00:01:19.439 in highed marketing who have made the transition out of, you know, traditional 17 00:01:19.480 --> 00:01:25.400 business into the ranks of high reed marketers and really passionate about what he's doing 18 00:01:25.439 --> 00:01:29.079 and you can tell that and everything and he says there's a lot packed into 19 00:01:29.120 --> 00:01:32.000 this episode and so I really encourage you to listen to that. And I 20 00:01:32.079 --> 00:01:34.920 also just make a note that Tim is the second guest that we've had on 21 00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:41.159 who has won the American Marketing Association Higher Ed Marketer of the year. He 22 00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:44.359 won it for night if for a two thousand and twenty, one Ethan Braden 23 00:01:44.400 --> 00:01:47.079 from Perdue, one a in two thousand and twenty. And so you know 24 00:01:47.120 --> 00:01:51.239 the caliber of these guests and the wisdom that they can bring. pull out 25 00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:53.920 your notebook because there's a lot of really good things to walk away with. 26 00:01:53.239 --> 00:01:57.680 You can see the common thread in both of them through that passion, through 27 00:01:57.719 --> 00:02:01.920 that expertise and how they deliver it so easily. Yeah, very articulate, 28 00:02:02.040 --> 00:02:08.560 yes, very much so. Here's our interview with Dr Tim Bowling. Please 29 00:02:08.599 --> 00:02:15.560 help me welcome Tim Bowling, chief marketing and graduate enrollment officer and teaching professor 30 00:02:15.599 --> 00:02:19.800 of marketing at the University of Notre Dame to the high reed marketer podcast. 31 00:02:20.120 --> 00:02:24.400 And before we get into the topic, which is how Notre Dame uses this 32 00:02:24.479 --> 00:02:30.960 wonderful smarter marketing and enrollment playbook for massive success, if you would tell us 33 00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:35.280 a little bit about the school that you are over, Tim, and I 34 00:02:35.360 --> 00:02:38.080 mean we all know about Notre Dame, but I believe that you are with 35 00:02:38.120 --> 00:02:42.960 the business school that's right to troy, and thank you for that welcome introduction. 36 00:02:43.240 --> 00:02:46.639 Delighted to be here with both you and Bart Tim Bowling, chief marketing 37 00:02:46.639 --> 00:02:52.360 graduate, Rollman Officer at the Mendoza College of business, of course, which 38 00:02:52.400 --> 00:02:57.000 is part of the University of Notre Dame. We're business school, a steeped 39 00:02:57.000 --> 00:03:00.400 in tradition a hundred years. We just celebrated our centennial and I've been at 40 00:03:00.520 --> 00:03:05.759 Notre Dame since January two thousand and nineteen and it's been just a great, 41 00:03:05.719 --> 00:03:09.080 great journey and we're just getting started. That's wonderful. And we are going 42 00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:15.400 to talk about this wonderful tool that you utilize. It's the smart marketing and 43 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:21.120 enrollment playbook and in our earlier conversation you mentioned that this actually came out of 44 00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:25.199 the private sector and through your journey of going into Higher Ed, you are 45 00:03:25.280 --> 00:03:30.000 able to bring it in, adapt it and it's still deliver success. Can 46 00:03:30.039 --> 00:03:34.840 you tell us a little bit about that? Sure happy to so. After 47 00:03:34.840 --> 00:03:39.879 spending twenty five years in industry, always having one foot planet in academia, 48 00:03:39.960 --> 00:03:46.439 I decided to put two feet firmly in academia and return to my Alma Mater 49 00:03:46.680 --> 00:03:51.280 I received my doctorate, and that was Georgia State University. At the twenty 50 00:03:51.360 --> 00:03:57.280 plus years and industry, I had the opportunity to test, refine, Bild 51 00:03:57.599 --> 00:04:03.240 deploy best practice is from a customer engagement perspective, and this particular playbook we 52 00:04:03.280 --> 00:04:10.360 call the smarter marketing and recruitment playbook in higher education, akin to a smarter 53 00:04:10.479 --> 00:04:15.560 marketing and sales playbook in the commercial sector. And you know really those key 54 00:04:15.639 --> 00:04:21.279 tenants that work very effectively in industry or commercial space also work in higher education, 55 00:04:21.600 --> 00:04:28.079 that the playbook really is grounded on a couple of key tenants. Certainly 56 00:04:28.319 --> 00:04:33.920 you know knowing thy customer very deeply here from a data driven perspective, with 57 00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:39.759 a key depth of understanding of who the target audience is, and higher education 58 00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:45.079 that would be perspective. Students, we then ensure that we deliver a meaningfully 59 00:04:45.199 --> 00:04:49.319 unique and distinct value proposition, a brand narrative, if you will, that 60 00:04:49.399 --> 00:04:54.839 makes a case for why, and you know, delighted here at Notre Dame 61 00:04:54.959 --> 00:05:00.720 we have embarked on ellucinating a new brand narrative, driving a smarter marketing and 62 00:05:00.759 --> 00:05:04.639 recruitment playbook that has been very well received, very well received. Frankly, 63 00:05:04.720 --> 00:05:10.120 when I moved into academia I wasn't sure if it was going to work because 64 00:05:10.160 --> 00:05:14.120 it works so effectively in industry and you know, everyone talks about the differences 65 00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:18.800 between Higher Ed and Industry, but this framework is industry agnostic and is, 66 00:05:18.839 --> 00:05:25.240 you know, really elevating the brand reputation, the the brand equity of Notre 67 00:05:25.319 --> 00:05:30.839 Dame. Similarly for Georgia's state before I decided to come here to Notre Dame, 68 00:05:30.879 --> 00:05:36.720 and I would assert is effective path forward for all institutions, universities, 69 00:05:36.839 --> 00:05:42.319 colleges, state schools, private, you know, and so forth. I 70 00:05:42.360 --> 00:05:46.120 have not yet seen a situation where it doesn't work, which is pretty exciting. 71 00:05:46.519 --> 00:05:49.600 That's great and I really like, you know, some of the premise 72 00:05:49.639 --> 00:05:51.959 that you started out and we're going to kind of peel this back a little 73 00:05:53.000 --> 00:05:54.759 bit and talk a little bit more about this, but I think that the 74 00:05:54.800 --> 00:05:57.800 idea of data driven. You know, you and I both, and all 75 00:05:57.800 --> 00:06:00.000 three of us have been in the industries for four years as I think that 76 00:06:00.040 --> 00:06:04.800 we are living in a little bit of a unique time frame where twenty, 77 00:06:04.839 --> 00:06:08.600 five, thirty years ago we didn't have access to the kind of data that 78 00:06:08.600 --> 00:06:11.759 we have today, and I'm sure that you guys are really utilizing that and 79 00:06:11.759 --> 00:06:14.199 that's a big part of the playbook. Tell us a little bit about some 80 00:06:14.199 --> 00:06:16.839 of the data that you're pulling and utilizing for your messaging and how you're doing 81 00:06:16.839 --> 00:06:21.040 things. Great question barked from a day of perspective. Data is the heartbeat 82 00:06:21.120 --> 00:06:27.560 of modern marketing. It's the the heartbeat of our smarter marketing recruitment playbook. 83 00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:31.079 What data do we look at in leverage? Frankly, on a daily basis. 84 00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:35.800 Let me share with you a couple of real examples. So to determine 85 00:06:35.839 --> 00:06:41.639 what our brand narrative is, we went through a journey, a journey to 86 00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:47.360 really understand what makes no tre dame Mendoza College of business meaningfully distinct, and 87 00:06:47.399 --> 00:06:54.439 we leverage a number of traditional data sources, right surveys, focus groups, 88 00:06:54.480 --> 00:06:58.199 really you know, had a chance, frankly, to read the founding documents 89 00:06:58.319 --> 00:07:03.680 of our our college, really looking to understand what makes us us and makes 90 00:07:03.759 --> 00:07:09.199 us meaningfully different to, you know, everyone else. Right, a lot 91 00:07:09.199 --> 00:07:13.240 of sea of sameness going on across higher education if you look at the messages 92 00:07:13.319 --> 00:07:16.759 that we communicates. Therefore, we want to cut through the clutter make sure 93 00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:24.600 we connect in a very foundational, emotional and transformational level with those right fit 94 00:07:24.680 --> 00:07:28.959 students. So, you know, we embarked upon this journey and landed on 95 00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:32.279 grow the good, and that is our imperative from a the Doza College of 96 00:07:32.279 --> 00:07:34.920 business. In fact, I have it right behind me here. Throw the 97 00:07:34.920 --> 00:07:41.279 good in business. So that's one way in which we determine our brand narrative, 98 00:07:41.360 --> 00:07:43.920 those key messages. But let me add to it what is so, 99 00:07:43.920 --> 00:07:50.120 so important. The data driven orientation from a digital first model perspective enables us 100 00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:56.519 to understand what works and doesn't work. We hear at at Notre Dame Medosa 101 00:07:56.519 --> 00:08:01.480 College of business, have put in market a couple thousand ads. May sound 102 00:08:01.519 --> 00:08:03.319 like a lot, but let me share with you how you get to that. 103 00:08:03.399 --> 00:08:07.680 All of them, you know, on message, all the lattering to 104 00:08:07.680 --> 00:08:11.680 our brand narrative, which speaks to a community mutual advancement, speaks to INTRIGRA 105 00:08:11.839 --> 00:08:16.560 leadership development, speaks to, you know, this notion of experiential learning that 106 00:08:16.600 --> 00:08:22.360 we believe as uniquely at Notre Dame. But from a messaging standpoint, across 107 00:08:22.360 --> 00:08:26.839 a digital ECO system, everything is instrumented, every single touch point is instrumented, 108 00:08:28.519 --> 00:08:33.960 interconnected across an integrated marketing communication plan and spins off intelligence. So the 109 00:08:33.960 --> 00:08:37.000 three eyes, if you will. You know there's nose, an instrumented, 110 00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:45.759 interconnected, intelligent we can, in real time, understand what messages are being 111 00:08:45.759 --> 00:08:50.200 completely ignored and, more importantly, what messages are being engaged with, such 112 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:56.360 that we double down on what works and we change or stop what doesn't. 113 00:08:56.360 --> 00:09:01.279 Often when I find in across many industry you made a great strategy, but 114 00:09:01.399 --> 00:09:05.720 often we employ, not here at Notre Dame, but often schools grapple with 115 00:09:05.759 --> 00:09:11.039 this what I call a set and forget strategy. Build an incredible strategy and 116 00:09:11.080 --> 00:09:15.360 then put it market and wait and see and wait and see, and then 117 00:09:15.399 --> 00:09:18.399 you know, surprisingly, it may not work. So what we do is 118 00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:24.960 we call sense and respond. Every day we are measuring the degree of engagement 119 00:09:24.960 --> 00:09:28.639 with all of our messages, and let me share the notion of it's not 120 00:09:28.679 --> 00:09:33.080 one message. It's a personalized message based on data back to the persona that 121 00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:37.679 is the right fit student. So the message is we deliver, help us 122 00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:43.320 shape the class profiles, enhance the diversity, enhance the women in business where 123 00:09:43.320 --> 00:09:46.519 business school. So you, women in business and so forth, were very 124 00:09:46.519 --> 00:09:50.679 target in these key segments that, you know, we believe can just continue 125 00:09:50.720 --> 00:09:54.480 to elevate the brand equity of Notre Dame Mendoza College of business and certainly, 126 00:09:54.519 --> 00:09:58.600 of course, the programs of themselves. That's great and I know you kind 127 00:09:58.600 --> 00:10:03.320 of mentioned those three eyes and I know in our pre conversation we talked a 128 00:10:03.320 --> 00:10:07.039 little bit about the what the smart marketing playbook is built on. What those 129 00:10:07.080 --> 00:10:09.679 what those tenants are? Are Those three eyes the tenants of the of the 130 00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:13.120 playbook or is there something different that you kind of are using as the tenants 131 00:10:13.120 --> 00:10:18.080 of the playbook? Yeah, so you look at the smarter marketing playbook, 132 00:10:18.120 --> 00:10:22.679 it is absolute data driven. That's central to it. It really really is. 133 00:10:22.799 --> 00:10:28.360 I did on top of it this notion of having a compelling value proposition. 134 00:10:28.399 --> 00:10:33.600 So you know really what is your unique value proposition and you use data 135 00:10:33.679 --> 00:10:37.000 to you deliver that from a digital first perspective. So digital is key. 136 00:10:37.080 --> 00:10:41.840 And then, you know, frankly, talent is everything. It really really 137 00:10:41.919 --> 00:10:43.039 is. So I would just you know, share also, I'm so, 138 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:46.960 you know, proud of the team that they are just delivering with excellence, 139 00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:52.440 seeing very focused every day, living the values of Notre Dame and and, 140 00:10:52.519 --> 00:10:54.600 you know, being a force for good in the world, if you will, 141 00:10:54.600 --> 00:11:00.039 helping those, you know leaders of today and tomorrow right become the best 142 00:11:00.120 --> 00:11:03.759 versions of themselves and so forth. So that, I think, those are 143 00:11:03.799 --> 00:11:05.639 some of the the key pillars has helped us deliver on what I call the 144 00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:09.399 QUINTFECTA. So you know from a Quin fact if I made show, I 145 00:11:09.480 --> 00:11:13.759 pivot to that now or do you have a different so quin FECTA. One 146 00:11:13.799 --> 00:11:16.159 day I was sitting in my office and we've got these key metrics on my 147 00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:20.279 white board, you know, key metrics that I would assert every school, 148 00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:24.840 big school, small school, public, private, etc. Should be thinking 149 00:11:24.879 --> 00:11:28.399 about right, and that is, you know, the interest, the reputation 150 00:11:28.799 --> 00:11:31.960 of your institution could be measured, should be measured, at least to some 151 00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:37.000 extent, in terms of, you know, the applications right, what types 152 00:11:37.039 --> 00:11:41.799 of applicants are are being, you know, interested in your institution. And 153 00:11:41.919 --> 00:11:46.080 let me share what the quint fact is across the enrollment journey, and this 154 00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:52.240 enrollment journey is really, really important. The notion of applications submitted. That's 155 00:11:52.279 --> 00:11:58.759 one of the five Quinfecta elements. We've seen a surgeon interest from a application 156 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:03.559 standpoint, and it's not just applications, although we love to see that increase. 157 00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:09.200 It's the type of applicants that are actually applying. Hence that we're able 158 00:12:09.240 --> 00:12:13.000 to increase our selectivity. What does that mean? We've got student bet you 159 00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:16.360 know, like an elevation, and you know, best fit, right fit 160 00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:20.840 students. In addition to that, the matriculated students have increased. So the 161 00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:26.879 first three of the five Quin fact application submitted increased, selectivity increased, matriculated 162 00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:31.720 students increased. In addition to that, I'm very pleased to say the academic 163 00:12:31.879 --> 00:12:37.000 quality, academic readiness has improved as well. So we're business school, graduate 164 00:12:37.039 --> 00:12:39.840 school. Will talk about that here. What does that mean? That needs 165 00:12:39.840 --> 00:12:46.279 a gmat scores, gre scores, undergraduate GPA's average work experience. And the 166 00:12:46.279 --> 00:12:52.159 fifth component of the quint fact that I'm actually most proud of is the diversity 167 00:12:52.159 --> 00:12:56.159 we have elevated, the diversity within our classrooms with women in business, under 168 00:12:56.240 --> 00:13:01.960 represented minorities, is just a fantastic five, four five that you know. 169 00:13:01.960 --> 00:13:05.000 I'm optimistic. Actually we're going to go back to back with the five four 170 00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:07.960 fives, with where we are right now in our enrollment cycle. Some of 171 00:13:07.960 --> 00:13:13.399 our programs already at over a hundred percent increase your to year and applications, 172 00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:18.639 after seeing significant your your increases the last two years since we've deployed the smarter 173 00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:24.159 marketing playbook here at Notre Day. That's great. Would you be able to 174 00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:30.159 share some of the outcomes, positive outcomes that you have realized? Sure, 175 00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:33.720 happy to so. I'll go back to a point I mentioned a moment ago 176 00:13:33.799 --> 00:13:37.399 which I'd encourage everyone listening that's in the higher it space to think about, 177 00:13:37.480 --> 00:13:43.080 and that is this notion of enrollment journey. It's really important to understand who 178 00:13:43.159 --> 00:13:48.759 those right fit perspective students are and their journey to your institutions, knowing of 179 00:13:48.759 --> 00:13:54.159 course they're potentially likely applying to multiple schools. Right. So we look at 180 00:13:54.159 --> 00:14:00.080 from a enrollment journey standpoint is across all of our programs, how are we 181 00:14:00.159 --> 00:14:05.200 showing up at that in query stage when somebody across a digital ECO system, 182 00:14:05.240 --> 00:14:11.200 you know, shares their name, their email address, their phone number perhaps, 183 00:14:11.200 --> 00:14:16.639 reaches out and wants to talk to an emissions leader the notion of in 184 00:14:16.759 --> 00:14:22.240 query stage. Then we look at created APPS, we look at submitted APPS, 185 00:14:22.240 --> 00:14:26.039 we look at admits and then, ultimately enrollment and matriculation. And at 186 00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:30.879 each of those stages in I'll call the enrollment journey, we have key metrics 187 00:14:30.919 --> 00:14:33.960 that we look at program by program and then collectively. Let me give you 188 00:14:33.960 --> 00:14:37.639 a couple of data points here, as you ask. So from a data 189 00:14:37.720 --> 00:14:43.840 point perspective we've delivered a forty percent increase in queries, a twenty five percent 190 00:14:43.879 --> 00:14:48.080 increase in created APPS, twenty nine percent increase in submitted APPS, twenty six 191 00:14:48.120 --> 00:14:52.679 percent increase in admits and thirty percent increase in enrollment. So I look at 192 00:14:52.720 --> 00:14:56.919 this on an ongoing basis those key parameters. And when everything's green, green 193 00:14:58.039 --> 00:15:00.919 is good. We like Green. That I especially you're at notes. Youre 194 00:15:01.039 --> 00:15:05.360 Dame right go I wish green. So those are all green right now and 195 00:15:05.720 --> 00:15:09.639 looking very positive going forward. So those are the specific metrics and of course 196 00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:13.759 we do this at all program level. And then also programmed by program our 197 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:18.559 MBA program versus are specialized masters, versus are executive programs and so forth. 198 00:15:18.799 --> 00:15:22.639 That's great. So you kind of talked a little bit about you touched on 199 00:15:22.679 --> 00:15:26.080 those three different programs that you're kind of utilizing the playbook in. How is 200 00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:30.639 that collaboratively working? I mean, obviously you're doing personas for each of the 201 00:15:30.639 --> 00:15:35.200 different programs. You're developing that enrollment journey and measuring those different programs, but 202 00:15:35.559 --> 00:15:41.039 talk to me a little bit about how those different aspects of the different programs 203 00:15:41.080 --> 00:15:43.919 collaborate underneath all of this. Sure, sure, Bart, so it is 204 00:15:45.039 --> 00:15:48.320 very much a collaborative, transparent process. Frankly, let me share with you 205 00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:52.480 the dashboard, the dashboard that I have on my computer that I, you 206 00:15:52.519 --> 00:15:56.000 know, look at every day, actually is the same dashboard that's on the 207 00:15:56.000 --> 00:16:00.440 Dean's computer as well. Frankly, he doesn't look at it, but if 208 00:16:00.440 --> 00:16:03.279 he wanted to, he certainly can write. And in addition to that, 209 00:16:03.320 --> 00:16:08.000 of course, there's academic program directors, there's marketeers, there's admissions, you 210 00:16:08.039 --> 00:16:11.159 know, and so forth. So we've got, you know, the single 211 00:16:11.240 --> 00:16:12.960 source of the truth, as how I refer to it. That right, 212 00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:18.399 everybody's opinions are welcomed. You know, everyone's entitled to their opinion. I 213 00:16:18.519 --> 00:16:22.240 welcome at all, but they're not entitled to their own set of data. 214 00:16:22.360 --> 00:16:25.879 Right. So we have one single source of the truth. That's then, 215 00:16:25.919 --> 00:16:29.559 you know, a real time dashboard, which has been great, drives tremendous 216 00:16:29.559 --> 00:16:33.879 Trans parency and accountability and team or right, it's a very collaborative it's a 217 00:16:33.879 --> 00:16:37.960 team sport. It really really is. And you know, that's not just 218 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:44.080 for a dashboard. That's also from a persona perspective. The personas are built 219 00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:49.600 with marketeers, admissions team member, student services, Career Services, academic program 220 00:16:49.639 --> 00:16:56.360 directors, students, as well as those individuals who have applied to Notre Dame 221 00:16:56.639 --> 00:17:00.159 middle of the college in Business and for whatever reason, chose to go somewhere 222 00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:03.799 else. Right. So it's a very kind of wide inputs here from a 223 00:17:03.880 --> 00:17:11.400 data perspective and collaboration on the Personas, on the message, called message hierarchies 224 00:17:11.480 --> 00:17:15.519 or the message maps. We've got personas and message maps built for each of 225 00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:21.759 our programs such that we can deald our personalized messages based on that program and 226 00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:26.200 the right fit students for the program are. NBA students are different than our 227 00:17:26.200 --> 00:17:30.640 fifth year. You know specialized masters. They're different than the executive NBA. 228 00:17:30.839 --> 00:17:34.519 So we've got clarity on who those perspective students are that we would like to 229 00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:40.200 continue to cultivate and see in our classrooms. And you know what messages resonate 230 00:17:40.279 --> 00:17:42.680 and what message don't resonate. Right. So that's how we look at it 231 00:17:42.680 --> 00:17:47.880 from a collaboration standpoint. That's great, and I'm sure even down to the 232 00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:51.319 modality of the delivery of the messaging. I'm sure that you know the way 233 00:17:51.319 --> 00:17:55.720 that you're going to be talking to an executive education prospect and you know corporus. 234 00:17:55.880 --> 00:18:00.359 You See ceio or CFO or CEO is going to be different. Then 235 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:03.680 you know the modality that you might do. For a moment. You know 236 00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:07.720 an older generation Z who's getting ready to go into their NBA program tell me 237 00:18:07.759 --> 00:18:10.920 a little bit about that. I mean, are there ways that you're doing 238 00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:14.359 that differently? Yeah, so, so you're exactly right, and you know 239 00:18:14.440 --> 00:18:19.079 each program is unique. Each program has their own priorities, if you will. 240 00:18:19.079 --> 00:18:25.119 Even you know, domestic versus international, stand based versus non stand based. 241 00:18:25.240 --> 00:18:29.440 Right, undergraduates who are liberal arts versus undergraduates or business students. So 242 00:18:29.640 --> 00:18:33.599 we look at all of those characteristic being very cognizant of where we are today 243 00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:37.599 and and where we want to be tomorrow, the notion of really shaping our 244 00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:44.119 classrooms going going forward. And I'd also suggest that it's not just about enrollment. 245 00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:48.039 Of course that's what I have responsibility for from a graduate enrollment is part 246 00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:51.759 of my cheap marketing graduate rollment perspective, but if you talk about marketing in 247 00:18:51.799 --> 00:18:56.400 general, it represents the entire school and all of our stakeholders. From a 248 00:18:56.440 --> 00:19:02.200 curriculum development standpoint, I talked about it in regards to the brand integrity index 249 00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:07.640 or the promise to performance metric. So those brand promises that we're making, 250 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:11.440 are we delivering on them from a performance standpoint? Right? Are we INSYNC 251 00:19:11.480 --> 00:19:15.480 from an integrity standpoint? And that's helped transform a number of things, frankly, 252 00:19:15.720 --> 00:19:19.000 from curriculum development an example. So you know, one of those key 253 00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:25.240 pillars under that supports our brand imparative to grow the good business is Integra leadership 254 00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:30.720 development. Another is experiential learning on the front lines that how, from a 255 00:19:30.759 --> 00:19:36.160 curriculum perspective, are we delivering on those promises? That's really important and we've 256 00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:41.279 seen some great progress there as we go forward. So the data informs much 257 00:19:41.319 --> 00:19:45.599 more than just graduate enrollment. Just wanted to kind of share that point as 258 00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:52.079 well. That's great. It seems it's evident that this playbook delivers huge success. 259 00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:56.400 But let me ask you, how confident would you be to say we 260 00:19:56.480 --> 00:20:02.599 wanted to double the enrollment and not today? Yeah, so I would say 261 00:20:02.599 --> 00:20:06.079 we could actually do it. In fact, we don't intend to do that 262 00:20:06.119 --> 00:20:10.359 for the right reasons. Right what are classrooms? Only so large and but 263 00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:15.720 importantly, we focus on quality. Quality, is that the most important thing 264 00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:19.440 here? Obviously it's, you know, quality and quantity. Given the curriculum 265 00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:22.880 parameters that we have at play, a number of faculty, size of classrooms 266 00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:26.400 and so forth. We're very purposeful to, you know, be thoughtful in 267 00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:33.000 our growth approaches. This playbook can accelerate tremendous growth, and it has, 268 00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:37.759 but it's thoughtful, discipline growth in those key areas. I'll also add we 269 00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:41.599 have not increased the budget. This is not a matter of increasing budgets. 270 00:20:41.599 --> 00:20:45.680 It's just better use of existing budgets. That's really, really important for a 271 00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:48.039 lot of the listeners. I'm sure they're they're wondering, you know, how 272 00:20:48.039 --> 00:20:51.400 do you get these tremendous results. It's not by increasing the budget, although 273 00:20:51.440 --> 00:20:56.519 that is nice, of course. It's about smaller usage of existing budgets and, 274 00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:00.559 importantly, quantifying the return on investment from said budget, so you can 275 00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:04.160 improve budget based on looking at, you know, return investment metrics. I 276 00:21:04.200 --> 00:21:10.279 could as certain literally the dollar amount that will be required to double our enrollment, 277 00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:14.960 because everything's instrument. We have cost per in query, costper created APP 278 00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:17.960 and it's different bites program all the way through the funnel, of course, 279 00:21:17.960 --> 00:21:22.240 to cost per enrollment from an investment. I actually prefer the word investment to 280 00:21:22.359 --> 00:21:26.160 expense and in cost. Well, that's very exciting. So my next question 281 00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:30.279 if you're not going to use it to double the enrollment at nor to dame, 282 00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:37.279 is this available to other schools, other leaders or's? This is something 283 00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:41.319 that's exclusive to you. Appreciate that that question. I share a couple of 284 00:21:41.319 --> 00:21:47.359 comments. One, I'd be happy to have conversations with your listeners in terms 285 00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:52.799 of sharing the path rawn and have in fact spent a number of speaking sessions 286 00:21:52.839 --> 00:21:57.799 conveying this this, you know, framework approach that we have underway. Secondly, 287 00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:02.880 there will be a peer review paper coming out here in the next month 288 00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:07.359 or so. That speaks to this, you know, brand narrative, elevation 289 00:22:07.480 --> 00:22:10.880 of brand equity. So look for that coming out and you know. Thirdly, 290 00:22:10.920 --> 00:22:15.279 if you're interested, I actually run a bowling consulting business. My wife 291 00:22:15.319 --> 00:22:18.160 actually is one who runs the business. Does a tremendous, you know, 292 00:22:18.200 --> 00:22:23.400 performance there in helping higher education institutions and you know, other industries as well, 293 00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:30.359 deploy brand strategy and smarter marketing and enrollment or or sales at ativity. 294 00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:33.480 So happy that to help. Very good will. We will give you an 295 00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:38.559 opportunity to give your information so people can contact you, but before we do 296 00:22:38.599 --> 00:22:42.160 we're going to make you give one piece of advice for free. We always 297 00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:48.759 ask our guest if there is one takeaway that you could give that someone could 298 00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:53.440 implement today or Monday that could have some impact. What would that piece of 299 00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:57.599 advice be? Sure, so let me give one piece of free advice and 300 00:22:57.599 --> 00:23:02.200 maybe a second as well. So I really, you know, would encourage 301 00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:07.839 everybody to think about the enrollment journey. Think about this not, as you 302 00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:12.079 know, one moment, but the notion of journeys. That really is is 303 00:23:12.200 --> 00:23:15.319 essential. It really really does. So I'd encourage you to think about that. 304 00:23:15.640 --> 00:23:21.960 Encourage your teams to really think through those activities that take place. You 305 00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:25.279 know, before someone shows up on your website, before they show up in 306 00:23:25.319 --> 00:23:29.759 your your classroom, that that journey is really, really important. And then 307 00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:33.279 the second you know, as I may I add another we've talked about this 308 00:23:33.319 --> 00:23:37.079 already. It's data right. Data, digital first, is the key here. 309 00:23:37.240 --> 00:23:41.680 Right. The world, how we live, work interacting by has fundamentally 310 00:23:41.799 --> 00:23:45.680 changed before the pandemic and even more so, you know, as we continue 311 00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:48.759 to find ourselves working our way out of this pandemic. Right, this no 312 00:23:48.839 --> 00:23:52.960 shit. Digital First, data matters a lot. There's still a lot of 313 00:23:52.960 --> 00:23:56.480 traditional techniques that are taking place across the higher education landscape, and I'd encourage 314 00:23:56.480 --> 00:24:03.640 you to think about digital first and shifting some of your investment accordingly to connect 315 00:24:03.680 --> 00:24:07.359 across that journey. It will, it will yield tremendous success. That would 316 00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:12.480 be my guidance here. Wonderful Tim thank you so much. This is very 317 00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:18.720 exciting. Now would love to give you an opportunity to give our listeners how 318 00:24:18.839 --> 00:24:22.000 they can contact you if they're interested in the playbook, if they're interested in 319 00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:26.000 the peer review or just to simply connect with you. Sure. So, 320 00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:30.559 couple ways. One, I'm on Linkedin. Certainly look for me. They're 321 00:24:30.759 --> 00:24:36.079 on Linkedin. Secondly, tim at Bowling Consultingcom, you can get me there, 322 00:24:36.200 --> 00:24:38.720 or t bowling at indie dotted. You again, happy to you know, 323 00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:44.279 engage to help. You know, really this is such a tremendous profession. 324 00:24:44.319 --> 00:24:48.880 Having, you know, relatively recently moved into higher at after twenty plus 325 00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:52.880 years and industry. I feel it's on us to help your shepherd the next 326 00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:56.839 generation of marketeers and the you know, what a purposeful industry right. So, 327 00:24:57.200 --> 00:25:00.599 anyway I can help, just feel free to reach out. Happy to 328 00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:03.720 have the conversation and see where it goes. Thank you, Tim, and 329 00:25:03.759 --> 00:25:10.599 I do want to make note that bowling is Boh l I g. you've 330 00:25:10.640 --> 00:25:14.880 been a wonderful guest and I look forward to following you. I look forward 331 00:25:14.920 --> 00:25:18.240 to the peer review and to learn more about the playbook. Thank you so 332 00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:22.440 much. As pleasure spending time with you. Bart. What are your last 333 00:25:22.599 --> 00:25:26.519 minute takeaways or thoughts that you can share before we wind up our episode? 334 00:25:26.599 --> 00:25:30.240 Yeah, I just want to point out a few things that Tim had said 335 00:25:30.279 --> 00:25:32.799 and certainly I encourage you to go back and listen to some of the other 336 00:25:32.839 --> 00:25:36.480 details but a few things Tim's done an excellent job of articulating, I think, 337 00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:38.799 what I would call some basic blocking and tackling from marketing. We're talking 338 00:25:38.839 --> 00:25:44.200 about being authentic and distinctive in your messaging. We're talking about personas, taking 339 00:25:44.240 --> 00:25:48.759 the time to develop those personas per audience and per program within those audiences. 340 00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:51.599 I mean you can't just say, oh, the personas graduate, you know, 341 00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:55.240 students, know it's it's either MBA students or it's, you know, 342 00:25:55.319 --> 00:25:57.680 it's executive NBA. There's a lot of and even within their tim kind of 343 00:25:57.880 --> 00:26:02.799 hinted at that. There's even segments within each of those. So there's women 344 00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:06.000 in business, there's minorities, there's different ways of looking at that. So 345 00:26:06.319 --> 00:26:11.039 the blocking and tackling of authenticity, of distinctiveness of Personas, and especially this 346 00:26:11.079 --> 00:26:14.079 idea of customer journeys be one of the things that we hear a lot about 347 00:26:14.119 --> 00:26:18.160 US customer journeys or enrollment journeys and the mapping of that and taking the time, 348 00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:22.279 just like you would with personas, of actually documenting all of that down 349 00:26:22.319 --> 00:26:25.759 so that you have an idea of what are the questions that your perspective, 350 00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:29.200 students are asking at this part of their journey and how can you create that 351 00:26:29.240 --> 00:26:32.720 messaging in that content that's going to answer those kinds of questions, and so 352 00:26:32.920 --> 00:26:36.279 I think that's really important just to kind of go back and listen to some 353 00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:37.920 of those points again. And then finally, I just want to really focus 354 00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:42.079 on the data. I Love Tim's quote about you know, data equals truth. 355 00:26:42.119 --> 00:26:45.000 You know that is it doesn't matter if you're a big school like Notre 356 00:26:45.079 --> 00:26:48.799 Dame or purdue or University of Kentucky, or you're really tiny school. You 357 00:26:48.839 --> 00:26:52.640 have access to data. You might have to figure it out how to get 358 00:26:52.720 --> 00:26:55.640 to it. You might not be able to have a real fancy dashboard, 359 00:26:55.680 --> 00:26:57.720 you might just be doing it out of excel or Google sheets, but you 360 00:26:57.799 --> 00:27:02.279 have access to day to drive that data. Use that day to look at 361 00:27:02.319 --> 00:27:04.839 that data. Use that data that you've got access to, the funnel data. 362 00:27:04.880 --> 00:27:07.440 You can figure out how many apps you have. You can figure out 363 00:27:07.480 --> 00:27:11.400 how many you know what the quality of those apps. You know how many 364 00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:15.880 people have matriculated. You can put that quinfect it's together for yourself and that's 365 00:27:15.880 --> 00:27:18.599 going to give you a lot more. It's gonna give you vision on what's 366 00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:21.759 going on. And it's only when you have that vision and that clarity that 367 00:27:21.799 --> 00:27:25.119 you can make those good decisions, and so I think that goes back to 368 00:27:25.160 --> 00:27:26.319 a lot of what Tim said. And there at the end just the idea 369 00:27:26.319 --> 00:27:30.400 of being smarter with what you have. I hear so to too many schools, 370 00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:33.640 especially small schools at Beman, about the fact that, Oh, if 371 00:27:33.640 --> 00:27:37.319 we just had a bigger budget, if we were a notre dame boy, 372 00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:38.960 we could do that. No, it's more about the matter of using what 373 00:27:40.039 --> 00:27:42.880 you have and being smarter with it, using the data and apply it accordingly. 374 00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:45.839 So really appreciate your time to day, Tim. It's been a it's 375 00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:48.640 been a wonderful lesson. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure being 376 00:27:48.640 --> 00:27:52.680 with you. I wish you everyone the best. The High Ed Marker podcast 377 00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:57.119 the sponsored by Kaylor solutions and education, marking and branding agency and by Think, 378 00:27:57.160 --> 00:28:03.640 patented, a marketing execution company combining print, data and personalization for campaign 379 00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:08.559 success. On behalf of my cohost Bart Kaylor, I'm troy singer. Thank 380 00:28:08.599 --> 00:28:15.400 you for joining us. You've been listening to the Higher Ed Marketer. To 381 00:28:15.559 --> 00:28:18.319 ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite 382 00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:22.880 podcast player. If you're listening with apple PODCASTS, we'd love for you to 383 00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:26.519 leave a quick rating of the show. Simply tap the number of stars you 384 00:28:26.519 --> 00:28:30.359 think the podcast deserves. Until next time,