Accessible Admissions Starts with Reducing Friction

WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.879 --> 00:00:07.190 You were listening to the Higher Ed Marketer, a podcast geared towards marketing professionals 2 00:00:07.230 --> 00:00:11.910 in higher education. This show will tackle all sorts of questions related to student 3 00:00:11.949 --> 00:00:16.070 recruitment, don't a relations, marketing, trends, new technologies and so much 4 00:00:16.070 --> 00:00:20.230 more. If you are looking for conversations centered around where the industry is going, 5 00:00:20.750 --> 00:00:30.140 this podcast is for you. Let's get into the show. Welcome to 6 00:00:30.179 --> 00:00:34.579 the High Ed Marketer Podcast, where every week we try to create wonderful and 7 00:00:34.659 --> 00:00:40.810 interesting conversations with higher ed marketers that we admire for the sake of other high 8 00:00:40.850 --> 00:00:46.409 ed markers to clean ideas from or just have something in common with. I'm 9 00:00:46.490 --> 00:00:51.560 always joined with my cohost, Bart Taylor, and we are talking to James 10 00:00:51.600 --> 00:00:56.840 Steen and he's with Houston back this university, and he is going to give 11 00:00:56.880 --> 00:01:00.759 us some wonderful tidbits on a transition that they made here recently. Barred, 12 00:01:00.759 --> 00:01:04.750 if you can help me explain a little bit about James and what they're doing? 13 00:01:04.870 --> 00:01:07.989 Yeah, I think we're going to have a great conversation with James and 14 00:01:08.310 --> 00:01:14.230 I met James Number of years ago at a Council for Christian College Universities Meeting 15 00:01:14.349 --> 00:01:18.510 and in Tampa Bay and Hannah will head it off while and have a chance 16 00:01:18.549 --> 00:01:21.099 to kind of get to know each other a little bit better. And I've 17 00:01:21.140 --> 00:01:23.780 kind of followed him for a couple years on what he's been doing and it's 18 00:01:23.819 --> 00:01:27.340 been fascinating and he's an excellent leader and rule kind of looked up to several 19 00:01:27.500 --> 00:01:33.209 of his peers and especially in faith based Christian Higher Education, and I know 20 00:01:33.370 --> 00:01:38.450 that recently he spoke at a conference that I spoke with with Nacap, and 21 00:01:38.650 --> 00:01:41.209 so it was great to be a part of that with him. But he 22 00:01:41.969 --> 00:01:46.930 he's done some very innovative things during his time at HBU and it it plays 23 00:01:46.969 --> 00:01:51.319 out into higher enrollment numbers, and so I really like the fact that sometimes 24 00:01:52.319 --> 00:01:57.159 doing innovative things and making what might be hard decisions sometimes can really pay off 25 00:01:57.319 --> 00:02:00.909 and really, in the long run, create a momentum that that you can 26 00:02:01.189 --> 00:02:05.670 really ride for a while. And one of the conversations that we'll talk about 27 00:02:05.670 --> 00:02:07.590 today is the idea of this whole test optional. You know, whether or 28 00:02:07.629 --> 00:02:14.550 not you need an act or an sat score to come to college. It's 29 00:02:14.629 --> 00:02:17.900 controversial. There's been a lot of conversation on inside Higher Ed and other industry 30 00:02:19.259 --> 00:02:23.099 publications about different aspects of test optional as far as you know, from a 31 00:02:23.259 --> 00:02:30.330 from a racial equality and devotion diversity standpoint to just a pragmatic standpoint within the 32 00:02:30.569 --> 00:02:36.009 pandemic, and I think it's a interesting to hear James Talk about his journey 33 00:02:36.050 --> 00:02:40.129 on that, on that thought process and the decisions that Hbu made this year 34 00:02:40.210 --> 00:02:44.719 as it related to that and how HBU is a kind of an interesting place 35 00:02:44.719 --> 00:02:46.879 as far as diversity to so it's going to be some really good conversations to 36 00:02:47.319 --> 00:02:53.439 to hear from James. Yes, he's a smart individual and a very engaging 37 00:02:53.280 --> 00:03:01.229 conversationalist and it's time for us to bring him into the conversation. We're excited 38 00:03:01.310 --> 00:03:07.509 to welcome James Steen, vice president of enrollment management at Houston Baptist University, 39 00:03:07.710 --> 00:03:12.150 to show welcome James. Thank you so much for having me, Troy. 40 00:03:12.150 --> 00:03:15.340 I appreciate it. James, if you could please tell us about your role 41 00:03:15.419 --> 00:03:22.300 at Houston Baptist, absolutely so. I've been at Houston Baptist University for almost 42 00:03:22.340 --> 00:03:27.930 fifteen years now and before that I was at Baylor University for a little over 43 00:03:28.090 --> 00:03:35.250 thirteen years and I describe myself as Babes, basically a recovering admissions counselor. 44 00:03:35.370 --> 00:03:38.250 I started way back when, right out of college, I was a tour 45 00:03:38.370 --> 00:03:44.960 guide whenever I was a student at Baylor and would drop families off over at 46 00:03:44.960 --> 00:03:47.759 the admissions office. So when I was graduating and had no idea what I 47 00:03:47.879 --> 00:03:51.919 was going to do after graduation, I thought I could. I could get 48 00:03:51.960 --> 00:03:55.389 one of those admissions counselor jobs and do that for a year or two and 49 00:03:55.469 --> 00:03:59.870 then go get a real job. Right. So, twenty eight years later, 50 00:04:00.030 --> 00:04:04.990 here I am and I'm still a recovering admissions counselor. That's great, 51 00:04:04.990 --> 00:04:09.830 James. I don't think I've ever met a small girl or boy who says 52 00:04:09.830 --> 00:04:12.939 I want to be a vice president for enrollment when I grew up. Sometimes 53 00:04:12.979 --> 00:04:15.420 so exactly. It's not one of those jobs that you start and you say 54 00:04:15.459 --> 00:04:19.899 that's that's my career path. But that's exciting. It's definitely not on the 55 00:04:19.939 --> 00:04:26.569 top ten list, is it? So you know, when we first kind 56 00:04:26.569 --> 00:04:29.649 of started talking a little bit about this podcast, James, I know you 57 00:04:29.689 --> 00:04:31.689 and I've known each other for a few years and we reached out to you 58 00:04:31.769 --> 00:04:34.170 and said, Hey, let's let's kind of talk a little bit about what's 59 00:04:34.170 --> 00:04:38.800 going on at Houston Baptist and in the pre interview you kind of talked about 60 00:04:38.800 --> 00:04:41.399 a number of things, but one of the interesting topics that I found, 61 00:04:41.759 --> 00:04:45.279 especially in light of what's happened in the last year, eighteen months, with 62 00:04:45.399 --> 00:04:49.839 with covid and the pandemic, is just the just this journey and maybe the 63 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:55.949 success that Houston Baptist has after you made the decision to go test optional, 64 00:04:56.550 --> 00:04:59.350 and I know a lot of people are aware of that. I just like 65 00:04:59.470 --> 00:05:00.670 to talk a little bit about that because, I mean, we have a 66 00:05:00.709 --> 00:05:04.750 lot of different people on the listening to the show. Some people might totally 67 00:05:04.790 --> 00:05:08.740 understand what's going on. What why you made that choice. Other people might 68 00:05:08.779 --> 00:05:12.259 be like what's test optional? Tell us a little bit about what went into 69 00:05:12.300 --> 00:05:15.459 that topic, when I went into that decision for Hbu and where you guys 70 00:05:15.500 --> 00:05:18.259 are on that. Yeah, thanks, Bart. It's a good question and 71 00:05:18.420 --> 00:05:26.329 I know I'll qualify my my stance on test optional by saying, you know, 72 00:05:26.449 --> 00:05:30.170 probably five or six years ago I wrote a paper when I was working 73 00:05:30.209 --> 00:05:35.959 on my doctor just about the whole test optional process in general and I really 74 00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:43.040 took the stance in that and that paper arguing that it's not necessarily. The 75 00:05:43.480 --> 00:05:48.079 problem is not necessarily with the test as much as it is with our admissions 76 00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:54.790 policies. Right. So where is the the the sat or the act? 77 00:05:54.949 --> 00:06:00.949 Certainly, standardized testing is is certainly biased in favor of some versus others. 78 00:06:00.990 --> 00:06:05.300 As long as the stance I took was as long as we as enroll of 79 00:06:05.379 --> 00:06:10.500 managers, as directors of admission, as long as we're, you know, 80 00:06:10.819 --> 00:06:16.779 able to have policies that are fair and equitable, it's not necessarily the test 81 00:06:16.939 --> 00:06:19.810 that's the problem. So that was the argument that I took several years ago. 82 00:06:19.850 --> 00:06:28.370 So so I didn't necessarily go into the pandemic or go into two thousand 83 00:06:28.370 --> 00:06:32.920 and twenty with this whole mindset that test optional was going to be the greatest 84 00:06:32.920 --> 00:06:38.839 thing since live spread. But I'm I've kind of I'm coming out of this 85 00:06:39.199 --> 00:06:45.160 crazy covid year that we've had really as a convert, if you will, 86 00:06:45.480 --> 00:06:49.790 to test optional and I think for for us, for hbu especially, it 87 00:06:50.470 --> 00:06:56.709 really has been a game changer. And I'll also say too, if we're 88 00:06:56.990 --> 00:07:02.540 HBU, Houston Baptist University is a really unique institution. It's not your typical 89 00:07:02.620 --> 00:07:10.939 private or Baptist University. Were Majority Hispanic with well over forty two, forty 90 00:07:11.019 --> 00:07:15.540 three percent of our freshman or Hispanic. Were about twenty one, twenty two 91 00:07:15.579 --> 00:07:19.209 percent African American. We're about one, nineteen, twenty percent wide and and 92 00:07:19.410 --> 00:07:23.970 even, you know, ten to twelve percent Asian. So it's a really, 93 00:07:24.329 --> 00:07:30.399 really diverse institution. So we didn't necessarily need to go test optional to 94 00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:38.519 help more students of Color Access Hbu. We that that was not the impetus. 95 00:07:38.680 --> 00:07:43.480 We really made that switch because we had to. Literally students were not 96 00:07:43.720 --> 00:07:48.790 able to take standardized test. They did not have set or act scores readily 97 00:07:48.829 --> 00:07:54.269 available. So we really just did it as a strategic decision. But like 98 00:07:54.470 --> 00:07:57.790 everybody else did, and I know we can, we can dig into the 99 00:07:57.829 --> 00:08:01.699 numbers a little bit further, but but I would say for us at Hbu, 100 00:08:01.939 --> 00:08:05.100 it really, really has been a game changer. It's great. And 101 00:08:05.579 --> 00:08:07.339 I guess, just out of curiosity, since since we're talking to a lot 102 00:08:07.379 --> 00:08:11.180 of marketers on this podcast, how did you end up kind of communicating that 103 00:08:11.300 --> 00:08:16.529 and really kind of selling that as a benefit for Hbu, because, I 104 00:08:16.569 --> 00:08:20.050 mean, not everybody's doing that and certainly there's various reasons why people might go 105 00:08:20.209 --> 00:08:22.050 test optional. Mean certainly a lot of it's the right thing to do as 106 00:08:22.089 --> 00:08:28.519 far as diversity and accessibility for four different different groups. But but I think 107 00:08:28.600 --> 00:08:31.959 that, you know, the pandemic caust some things. But how did you 108 00:08:31.039 --> 00:08:33.960 end up kind of communicating that and how did that become part of the marketing? 109 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:37.399 Yeah, I think that's a good question. We you know, from 110 00:08:37.559 --> 00:08:41.710 from our perspective. You know, as you said, we didn't necessarily go 111 00:08:41.870 --> 00:08:48.029 into it trying to increase our diversity, and I will say they're there are 112 00:08:48.549 --> 00:08:52.429 very legitimate reasons to do that. I know a lot of institutions have had 113 00:08:52.470 --> 00:08:58.059 success doing that even prior to the pandemic, and I think it's important, 114 00:08:58.539 --> 00:09:03.379 you know, to note as well on the back end that that that institutions 115 00:09:03.539 --> 00:09:09.299 that go test optional there their mean sat or mean act goes up right, 116 00:09:09.460 --> 00:09:13.250 because those with lower test scores tend not to self report, those with higher 117 00:09:13.330 --> 00:09:18.570 test scores do continue to provide test scores and go that route, if you 118 00:09:18.690 --> 00:09:24.440 will, and we've seen all of those things happen at Hbu this year as 119 00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:28.240 well. But I think we really went into it with the message that we 120 00:09:28.440 --> 00:09:33.559 understand what you're going through. We understand that there are problems and issues. 121 00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:37.830 There's limited access to standardized testing and so we want to do whatever we can 122 00:09:39.509 --> 00:09:45.149 to make HBU and this admissions process is accessible to you as possible. And 123 00:09:45.389 --> 00:09:50.230 and and, quite frankly, I think the the marketing of test optional in 124 00:09:50.309 --> 00:09:56.980 a lot of ways has almost become ubiquitous. So I don't know many institutions 125 00:09:56.580 --> 00:10:01.340 who have really, you know, planted a you know, a stake in 126 00:10:01.379 --> 00:10:03.340 the ground and said we're not budging, this is our policy, come hell 127 00:10:03.340 --> 00:10:09.250 or high water. I think really all of us, at least every rob 128 00:10:09.289 --> 00:10:11.809 of manners that I know, had to make some hard decisions or or change 129 00:10:11.970 --> 00:10:16.850 their processes in terms of test optional, in terms of how to get this 130 00:10:18.090 --> 00:10:20.639 class is two thousand and twenty one class in the door. So I don't 131 00:10:20.639 --> 00:10:24.879 want to say it's sold itself, but but it certainly was not a hard 132 00:10:26.039 --> 00:10:30.120 cell, if you will. From a marketing perspective it's great and from what 133 00:10:30.600 --> 00:10:33.840 from what I understand what you've said is that it was not in an impediment 134 00:10:33.919 --> 00:10:37.590 to building your class, and I think that's probably an important thing. Is 135 00:10:37.629 --> 00:10:41.669 that sometimes, when we're looking at these things trying to make decisions about how 136 00:10:41.710 --> 00:10:45.029 things move forward, it's like what's going to hurt you versus what could help 137 00:10:45.029 --> 00:10:50.940 you if you move those things exactly exactly. And I think in doing that 138 00:10:50.179 --> 00:10:58.179 we've now in some ways created an expectation, at least externally, that this 139 00:10:58.419 --> 00:11:01.019 is going to be the new norm and I think it'll be interesting to see 140 00:11:01.539 --> 00:11:07.090 over the next several years how many institutions go back to requiring an essay to 141 00:11:07.210 --> 00:11:15.289 or in act, how many institutions continue to have test optional as a as 142 00:11:15.370 --> 00:11:18.879 one of their admissions policies? And I think, not not to speak for 143 00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:26.200 the administration at Houston Baptist University, I think, I think for the short 144 00:11:26.200 --> 00:11:31.240 run we are very happy remaining test optional and I think there's even, you 145 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:35.629 know, several more ways to leverage that in the future. If I recall 146 00:11:35.789 --> 00:11:41.190 correctly in our earlier conversation, tested out test optional. Certainly, as you 147 00:11:41.230 --> 00:11:46.500 said, the higher scores tend to self report. You still require scores for 148 00:11:46.779 --> 00:11:52.299 merit awards, as that correct? That is not correct. So we actually 149 00:11:52.539 --> 00:11:56.100 yeah, so we started the year, you know, with this, with 150 00:11:56.259 --> 00:12:01.340 this big question mark of okay, what are we going to do about those 151 00:12:01.450 --> 00:12:05.850 who were admitted under test optional that don't have a test score, because obviously 152 00:12:05.129 --> 00:12:11.289 merit awards were so, so integral to that process. So we literally came 153 00:12:11.370 --> 00:12:18.399 up with an entirely new process for awarding merit and and I'll be honest, 154 00:12:18.440 --> 00:12:22.879 it was it was a little touch and go. We we certainly ran numbers. 155 00:12:24.200 --> 00:12:28.120 We worked with RNL to come up with, you know, a formulation 156 00:12:28.440 --> 00:12:33.509 for our scholarship and merit awarding that we thought could work with test optional. 157 00:12:33.990 --> 00:12:41.429 And and in doing that, the tricky thing was our our acceptance letters actually 158 00:12:41.990 --> 00:12:46.860 doubles as a scholarship or merit award. So it's congratulations, bar to, 159 00:12:46.940 --> 00:12:50.379 you're accepted to Huston Baptish University and you've been awarded the X Y Z scholarship. 160 00:12:50.539 --> 00:12:56.500 So so we couldn't even get an acceptance let her out until we figured 161 00:12:56.539 --> 00:13:01.929 this process out. And and and the interesting thing was, as we we 162 00:13:01.049 --> 00:13:07.409 did have some tweaks along the way with the formula that we were using for 163 00:13:07.570 --> 00:13:11.169 test optional. But but in the in the grand scheme of things, if 164 00:13:11.210 --> 00:13:15.279 you think of your ad met pool, is kind of a bell curve with 165 00:13:15.879 --> 00:13:18.320 you know, you know, those at the top and the bottom and then 166 00:13:18.360 --> 00:13:22.480 everybody in the middle, kind of formula forming a nice pretty bell curve. 167 00:13:22.159 --> 00:13:26.350 So far. We'll see what it looks like once we get to sensus date 168 00:13:26.509 --> 00:13:30.429 and how, you know, the the final yield comes in. But so 169 00:13:30.590 --> 00:13:33.669 far we've been able to maintain that Nice, pretty bell curve, if you 170 00:13:33.789 --> 00:13:39.029 will, even with our merit award distribution. So so that was something at 171 00:13:39.029 --> 00:13:41.460 the beginning of the year I would have told you there's no way we can 172 00:13:41.500 --> 00:13:46.379 do a merit award with how to without a test score right, but we've 173 00:13:46.379 --> 00:13:50.620 been able to even pivot and figure out a way to do that going forward. 174 00:13:50.899 --> 00:13:54.100 That's great. That's great. And then I guess one final question about 175 00:13:54.100 --> 00:13:56.330 the test option before we move on. Is there any place in the funnel 176 00:13:56.330 --> 00:14:03.529 that you saw a greater increase in in results because of this, this new 177 00:14:03.769 --> 00:14:07.570 approach? I mean was it was at the applications? Was it the admits? 178 00:14:07.690 --> 00:14:09.970 Was At the deposits? I mean we're in the funnel. Did that 179 00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:13.159 kind of plate self out? Yeah, so I think that was the thing 180 00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:18.000 that was the most exciting and the biggest surprise to us. So at the 181 00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:22.960 top of the funnel, for for for those who, you know, don't 182 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:26.549 know the funnel, you know you've got your inquiries and your applicants. So 183 00:14:26.750 --> 00:14:31.509 our inquiries in applicants. Year over year we're down about seven percent. So 184 00:14:31.669 --> 00:14:37.429 when your applications are down seven percent, you certainly don't expect to be up 185 00:14:37.629 --> 00:14:41.899 at the bottom of the funnel. However, because of test optional, our 186 00:14:41.980 --> 00:14:48.379 application completion rate is literally up year over year, about ten points better. 187 00:14:48.580 --> 00:14:52.809 So we're able to complete more applications even though we had fewer of them. 188 00:14:54.370 --> 00:14:58.570 And my acceptance rate, I was able to accept more. So my acceptance 189 00:14:58.610 --> 00:15:03.090 rate year over year is up about ten points. So so. So you 190 00:15:03.250 --> 00:15:07.440 do the compounding of that. So even though we're down on applications, I'm 191 00:15:07.480 --> 00:15:13.120 able to complete more and admit more at a higher rate because of test optional. 192 00:15:13.639 --> 00:15:18.519 So we literally have twenty seven percent more admits this year than we did 193 00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:22.230 last year. And and currently at the bottom of the funnel we're sitting on 194 00:15:22.429 --> 00:15:28.590 twenty four percent more deposits this year versus last year. And I think the 195 00:15:28.669 --> 00:15:31.070 the exciting thing is is, you know, a lot of us, I 196 00:15:31.190 --> 00:15:35.230 think, and I was just on an eab called the other day, and 197 00:15:35.269 --> 00:15:41.259 about two percent nationally, you know, of all institutions there, their data 198 00:15:41.340 --> 00:15:46.700 was showing the deposits were up nationally about two percent. And that's as as 199 00:15:46.820 --> 00:15:50.049 compared to last year. Will a lot of us were down on deposits last 200 00:15:50.049 --> 00:15:52.970 year. So really, if you go back to two thousand and nineteen and 201 00:15:52.169 --> 00:15:56.970 compare this year verse of Two Thousand and Nineteen, we're still up on deposits. 202 00:15:56.049 --> 00:16:02.409 And and because of I mean I'm literally giving credit to this new test 203 00:16:02.450 --> 00:16:07.519 optional policy. Because of this, this new test optional policy, we're going 204 00:16:07.559 --> 00:16:11.000 to enroll far and away a record number of freshmen this fall, which, 205 00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:15.440 of course, we're thrilled about. Let's congratulations on that. And and I 206 00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:18.389 guess want to take away, as I'm listening to from a from a marketing 207 00:16:18.429 --> 00:16:22.110 standpoint, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but would you say 208 00:16:22.230 --> 00:16:26.909 that the test optional decision? Obviously there's a lot of things that went into 209 00:16:26.990 --> 00:16:30.669 that, but you removed one piece of friction for a student being able to 210 00:16:33.220 --> 00:16:37.860 get enrolled to Houston Baptist University. I often talked to my clients and people 211 00:16:37.899 --> 00:16:42.220 about removing friction from the students engagement. You know, whether we on the 212 00:16:42.259 --> 00:16:45.779 RFI form, if we're asking way too many questions and they just decide that 213 00:16:45.779 --> 00:16:49.970 I can't, I can't complete this, this is crazy. Anywhere we can 214 00:16:51.049 --> 00:16:53.570 remove friction, it helps kind of smooth it and keep it for it. 215 00:16:53.690 --> 00:16:57.009 It sounds to me like, you know, there's a lot of factors involved, 216 00:16:57.049 --> 00:17:00.529 but maybe there was a little bit of friction in that. You know, 217 00:17:00.610 --> 00:17:03.399 I've got to gather my scores, I've got to gather everything for my 218 00:17:03.679 --> 00:17:07.599 application. Do you think that maybe that was part of the what increased your 219 00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:12.279 application completion rate? Yeah, I mean I think it's I think it's all 220 00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:18.910 of the above. And we're even, you know, good marketers are are 221 00:17:18.069 --> 00:17:26.470 obviously good about doing research and market analysis where where we're trying to do a 222 00:17:26.109 --> 00:17:33.779 survey of this incoming class to really understand the why behind, you know, 223 00:17:33.619 --> 00:17:37.779 some of these numbers and some of these metrics that were experiencing. But, 224 00:17:38.019 --> 00:17:44.059 but, but I do think as as enrollment managers, and I you use 225 00:17:44.140 --> 00:17:47.369 the word friction, I use the word barriers, I think we have to 226 00:17:47.529 --> 00:17:55.369 be very intentional about removing barriers, right and so so the argument to be 227 00:17:55.529 --> 00:17:59.480 made is, you know, if you don't have to have an application fee, 228 00:18:00.039 --> 00:18:03.079 then then why do you have one? Or One of my mentors, 229 00:18:03.119 --> 00:18:07.759 Bill Royal, used to say the only reason to have an application fee is 230 00:18:07.799 --> 00:18:10.839 if you're willing to waive it. Right and I think there are really good 231 00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:14.549 reasons to have an application fee. But but if you don't have to have 232 00:18:14.589 --> 00:18:18.430 an application fee, do you really, you know, should you have one? 233 00:18:18.589 --> 00:18:21.230 It becomes a barrier to entry, right. So you can you can 234 00:18:21.269 --> 00:18:23.750 ask those things about every, you know, every different stage of the funnel 235 00:18:23.789 --> 00:18:27.740 and certainly in the application process. If you don't have to require a test 236 00:18:27.740 --> 00:18:33.460 score, then should you? And and I think, I think, especially 237 00:18:33.539 --> 00:18:38.059 after experiencing just some of the incredible success that we've had this year, I 238 00:18:38.259 --> 00:18:41.769 think the answer for us is no, we don't have to do that and 239 00:18:41.849 --> 00:18:45.170 I think if we're going to do it, we're going to go all in 240 00:18:45.930 --> 00:18:51.250 and and one of the things that we're looking at even for next year is 241 00:18:51.450 --> 00:18:55.450 this, is this idea of do no harm and and if an applicant comes 242 00:18:55.490 --> 00:18:59.359 in and maybe checks the I want to go traditional route or checks the test 243 00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:03.920 optional route, if for some reason they submit a test score and and maybe 244 00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:07.319 they're not admissible with that test score, but they would be admissible under a 245 00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:12.950 test optional review process or the other the other scenario could be. Or what 246 00:19:14.109 --> 00:19:18.630 if a student who comes in on the traditional route maybe would qualify for a 247 00:19:18.710 --> 00:19:23.029 lower scholarship than they would if they were test optional. Right. So do 248 00:19:23.190 --> 00:19:30.259 no harm policy would say. It doesn't matter what what methodology you choose when 249 00:19:30.259 --> 00:19:33.140 you apply, we're going to we're going to do no harm, right. 250 00:19:33.180 --> 00:19:34.579 We're going to give you the benefit of the doubt and if it's if it's 251 00:19:34.579 --> 00:19:37.859 best for you to go the traditional route or if it's best for you to 252 00:19:37.900 --> 00:19:41.650 go test optional, that's how we're going to consider you for admission and or 253 00:19:42.130 --> 00:19:48.809 awards your merit scholarship. So so I think that's how we're researching and really 254 00:19:48.970 --> 00:19:53.559 looking into how to make this even better going forward next year. That's great 255 00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:57.359 and I liked what you said about, you know, what what royal said 256 00:19:57.359 --> 00:20:02.000 about the idea of if you need a if you don't need a fee, 257 00:20:02.079 --> 00:20:04.480 don't you don't charge one. I'm sure, though, that some people on 258 00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:07.910 campus, when it comes to test optional, especially academics and faculty, would 259 00:20:07.910 --> 00:20:11.990 say, actually, that is something that's required, it's something that we need 260 00:20:11.630 --> 00:20:15.190 because, you know, for whatever reason they have their belief. How did 261 00:20:15.190 --> 00:20:18.910 you deal with facts? I'm sure that came up. It did. It 262 00:20:18.190 --> 00:20:23.140 did, and I think and just talking to colleagues, you know, and 263 00:20:23.380 --> 00:20:29.339 in different areas of the country and at other institutions. It's it is so 264 00:20:29.539 --> 00:20:33.380 true. I think that, you know, if faculty want to know that 265 00:20:33.500 --> 00:20:37.210 the students are teaching in the classroom were qualified to be there. And I 266 00:20:37.329 --> 00:20:41.930 think we had to do a lot of a lot of homework with with data 267 00:20:42.130 --> 00:20:48.890 in terms of looking at studies and resource it showed really GPA and and high 268 00:20:48.930 --> 00:20:52.759 school rank and these other metrics that we can get from a high school transcript. 269 00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:56.839 It's literally based on three or four years as opposed to a standardized test 270 00:20:56.839 --> 00:21:00.359 score that's based on three or four hours. Truly is a better predictor. 271 00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:07.390 So when we made the decision to go test optional, we had to we 272 00:21:07.509 --> 00:21:11.309 had to sell it or market it externally, but we also had to sell 273 00:21:11.390 --> 00:21:17.910 it internally to yeah, and and and convinced faculty that this student that we're 274 00:21:17.950 --> 00:21:23.019 considering through this new holistic review process really is not only going to be a 275 00:21:23.099 --> 00:21:27.180 good fit but is going to be a contributor, is going to be successful 276 00:21:27.660 --> 00:21:32.619 in the classroom. So so it really is kind of a both and approach. 277 00:21:32.779 --> 00:21:34.529 We yes, we had to market it externally, but but we did 278 00:21:34.650 --> 00:21:40.369 have to do some work internally to convince faculty. And again, well, 279 00:21:40.930 --> 00:21:44.130 we'll know when it comes to fall spring. You know what our fault of 280 00:21:44.170 --> 00:21:48.559 Spring retention is and we're going to be very, very methodical about going through 281 00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:51.960 the data and making sure the decisions that we made were the right ones. 282 00:21:52.359 --> 00:21:55.559 That's that's fascinating. That's great. I love the fact that it's it takes 283 00:21:55.599 --> 00:21:59.160 internal marketing sometimes as much as it takes externals. So I want to pivot 284 00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:00.509 really quick before we kind of close up and everything, and just talk a 285 00:22:00.549 --> 00:22:03.190 little bit at the very beginning. You talked about HBU and some of the 286 00:22:03.269 --> 00:22:07.509 diversity issues and I just wanted to kind of touch based on that because I 287 00:22:07.710 --> 00:22:11.230 think that, you know, it's naturally occurred on your campus with with diversity 288 00:22:11.269 --> 00:22:18.579 because of your location and but I think that many schools struggle to to build 289 00:22:18.660 --> 00:22:22.579 diversity and you know, and we've talked to a couple different guests about that, 290 00:22:22.660 --> 00:22:25.500 and I've been in situations where, you know, people have actually said, 291 00:22:25.900 --> 00:22:27.980 can you do some marketing so that we have more diverse students come in 292 00:22:29.140 --> 00:22:32.250 and and I look at their, you know, staff and faculty page and 293 00:22:32.289 --> 00:22:34.529 I'm like, well, you probably need to have more people who are diverse 294 00:22:34.690 --> 00:22:38.529 on your staff before you actually can market more people because that's what that's what 295 00:22:38.569 --> 00:22:41.609 they're going to look for. That's what anybody's going to look for is, 296 00:22:41.769 --> 00:22:44.289 am I going to fit in here? And if they go to your website 297 00:22:44.319 --> 00:22:45.720 and they don't see that they're going to fit in. I don't care how 298 00:22:45.720 --> 00:22:48.279 much marketing that I do. I'm just curious what you think about that. 299 00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:52.720 Is that is I mean, certainly you've been naturally blessed to have that where 300 00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:56.279 you are and I think it's brings a richness to the community. But tell 301 00:22:56.279 --> 00:22:59.390 me about you know, what your what your advice is? Yeah, I 302 00:22:59.470 --> 00:23:03.950 know, I think you're you're absolutely correct, barred and you you've hit the 303 00:23:03.029 --> 00:23:08.549 nail on the head that it really does matter who we hire and and and 304 00:23:08.950 --> 00:23:15.460 I really we don't have a, you know, a specific, you know 305 00:23:15.660 --> 00:23:18.700 metric that we're trying to hit in terms of hiring policies, but I do 306 00:23:18.940 --> 00:23:26.539 have a very diverse team working for me. And so when you know, 307 00:23:26.819 --> 00:23:32.450 when perspective students come to camp us, when they go to our admissions page, 308 00:23:32.849 --> 00:23:37.490 you know when when they're when they're visiting, they they see lots of 309 00:23:37.650 --> 00:23:44.839 students of color and they see admissions counselors from from many different backgrounds and and 310 00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:52.279 so it's it's sometimes it's a challenge, right to really try to connect with 311 00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:57.990 everybody and and find that institutional fit with everybody. But I think it absolutely 312 00:24:00.190 --> 00:24:06.109 begins with and and hiring. Your hiring policies are so, so, so, 313 00:24:06.309 --> 00:24:11.019 so critical. That's great. That's great. I'm glad that you've shared 314 00:24:11.099 --> 00:24:14.619 that with us and that that's what you've found as well. So Great, 315 00:24:15.059 --> 00:24:18.259 James, you've been so generous with your wisdom. But Mart and I are 316 00:24:18.339 --> 00:24:25.849 greedy and every week we ask our guest if there's an additional idea or something 317 00:24:25.930 --> 00:24:30.250 that you've come across that would be an ideal worth sharing to your colleagues that 318 00:24:30.369 --> 00:24:33.890 may be listening to the show. If you could share that please, and 319 00:24:33.049 --> 00:24:37.920 anything that's top of mind. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Troy. 320 00:24:37.920 --> 00:24:45.799 I think one of the things that you know, this this this covid 321 00:24:45.880 --> 00:24:48.920 nineteen pandemic, I think has taught us more than anything, and and I 322 00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:52.789 think this is true for all of us in a sense, is it we 323 00:24:53.750 --> 00:24:57.309 we have to fly the plane, and I'm kind of borrowing that that quote 324 00:24:57.549 --> 00:25:02.470 from the movie sully. And you know, it's hard to go wrong with 325 00:25:02.670 --> 00:25:06.990 a with a Clint Eastwood directed movie that that Tom Hanks is starring, and 326 00:25:07.109 --> 00:25:08.500 right it's just hard to go wrong with a movie like that and it's a 327 00:25:08.539 --> 00:25:14.299 true story. But but you know what, everything is blowing up, when 328 00:25:14.460 --> 00:25:18.619 everything is going wrong, you still have to fly the plane right. And 329 00:25:18.779 --> 00:25:22.970 I think that's true for all of us, whether we're in moment managers, 330 00:25:22.569 --> 00:25:29.369 whether we're, you know, chief academic officers, whether we're chief financial officers, 331 00:25:29.769 --> 00:25:36.319 whether we're in marketing or wherever we are. During a pandemic, we 332 00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:41.240 still have to fly the plane right during during a hurricane. We've had two 333 00:25:41.240 --> 00:25:45.240 hurricanes at HBU since I've been here. We still have to fly the plane 334 00:25:45.319 --> 00:25:49.029 right. We may be under water, we may be without power, we 335 00:25:49.470 --> 00:25:55.269 may be all zooming from home and and having to figure out how to do 336 00:25:55.470 --> 00:26:00.990 things virtually but ultimately, you know, we're still called to do everything that 337 00:26:00.109 --> 00:26:04.099 we're supposed to do, and so rick our list of what's happening. You 338 00:26:04.180 --> 00:26:07.579 know, we still have to figure out how to fly the plane. James, 339 00:26:07.619 --> 00:26:11.900 that's wonderful, brilliant and you did a great job of bringing this episode 340 00:26:12.539 --> 00:26:18.569 down for landing. Thank you so much. If someone would like to reach 341 00:26:18.690 --> 00:26:22.049 you, what's the best way for them? To do so, absolutely. 342 00:26:22.250 --> 00:26:26.609 You can ping me or connect on Linkedin. You can certainly shoot me an 343 00:26:26.609 --> 00:26:30.009 email. It it's just first initial, last name, J Stein at hbu 344 00:26:30.210 --> 00:26:36.319 Dot eedu. I'd love to hear from you. Thank you, James Bart 345 00:26:36.400 --> 00:26:40.279 before we depart, do you have any final thoughts? Yeah, I just 346 00:26:40.400 --> 00:26:42.720 wanted to really appreciate everything you said, James, and I just sometimes I 347 00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:45.400 like to just kind of summarize a couple key points for everyone to kind of 348 00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:49.069 think about. I think that a lot of what James talked about. One 349 00:26:49.069 --> 00:26:52.269 of the key points I wanted to kind of point out is that a lot 350 00:26:52.309 --> 00:26:56.349 of times when you're making decisions and making change, you removing the barriers and 351 00:26:56.430 --> 00:27:00.029 then being able to communicate that to the prospective students is very important. I 352 00:27:00.109 --> 00:27:04.380 think marketing that and explaining that sometimes. I'm a big believer that even if 353 00:27:04.420 --> 00:27:08.180 you're on your on your application page or even as you're getting ready to start 354 00:27:08.220 --> 00:27:11.059 the application, explain to them what they're getting ready to, explain to them 355 00:27:11.099 --> 00:27:15.259 how it's going to work, remove any barriers of them wanting to just jump 356 00:27:15.299 --> 00:27:18.250 because they're overwhelmed. But I think the other thing that I will wanted to 357 00:27:18.289 --> 00:27:22.410 point out is that just how HBU really took and had to do some internal 358 00:27:22.450 --> 00:27:25.529 marketing, and I think sometimes we forget about that. I think that we're 359 00:27:25.569 --> 00:27:29.970 so busy and focused as marketers and sometimes we're in small, small offices where 360 00:27:29.970 --> 00:27:33.119 we don't have you know, we're overwhelmed already with the amount of work that 361 00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:36.839 we need to do. But I think that sometimes when big major changes are 362 00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:41.279 happening, especially in the enrollment office, being able to communicate that internally will 363 00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:45.710 save a lot of political headache and heartache later on, and so I think 364 00:27:45.710 --> 00:27:48.349 that's so important to kind of think about how to make sure that our messaging 365 00:27:48.549 --> 00:27:52.390 is coing both ways, both internally and externally. So I really appreciate you 366 00:27:52.470 --> 00:27:55.670 know, you pointing that out, James, and that's just kind of a 367 00:27:55.710 --> 00:28:00.579 key takeaway when everybody to think about. Absolutely well said, Bart and thank 368 00:28:00.660 --> 00:28:04.700 you both for a wonderful episode. To all of our listeners. We just 369 00:28:04.819 --> 00:28:10.259 want to remind you that the Higher Ed Marketer podcast is sponsored by Kaylor solutions 370 00:28:10.539 --> 00:28:15.250 and education marketing and branding agency and by Think, patented, a marketing, 371 00:28:15.329 --> 00:28:19.170 execution, printing and mailing provider of higher its solutions. On behalf of the 372 00:28:19.289 --> 00:28:23.569 COHOST, Bart Kaylor, I'm troy singer. Thank you for joining us. 373 00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:30.359 You've been listening to the Higher Ed Marketer. To ensure that you never miss 374 00:28:30.400 --> 00:28:36.039 an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you're 375 00:28:36.079 --> 00:28:38.519 listening with apple PODCASTS, we'd love for you to leave a quick rating of 376 00:28:38.599 --> 00:28:42.390 the show. Simply tap the number of stars you think the podcast deserves. 377 00:28:44.109 --> 00:28:44.950 Until next time,