Transcript
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You are listening to the Higher Ed
Marketer, a podcast geared towards marketing professionals
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in higher education. This show will
tackle all sorts of questions related to student
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recruitment, dontor relations, marketing trends, new technologies and so much more.
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If you are looking for conversations centered
around where the industry is going, this
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podcast is for you. Let's get
into the show. Welcome to the High
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Red Marketer podcast. I'm troy singer
and I'm here with my cohost and Talka
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truck collector, Bart Taylor, and
today we're going to talk to Peter Samuelson
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and he's with our dao education solutions
and with Peter we're going to have a
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discussion on how colleges can help grow
their enrollment and improve their value proposition through
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loan repayment assistant programs. Yeah,
it's been a really good conversation with Peter.
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I'm excited to share this with everyone
and I think that before the Higher
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Ed marketers out there are like I
thought this was a show about marketing.
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It is and I want you to
pay attention to it, because what Peter
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Talks about with these l wraps,
it's kind of the short version of the
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loan repayment assistant programs, L rap. What he talks about is the idea
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of how you can leverage these in
your marketing to help students find security in
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going into your school, especially if
they're having to take out debt and maybe
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their career isn't one that's going to
be a high paying career at the end.
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So a lot of thing is talking
about, you know, the prospective
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students needs, their perception, their
realities and how we can market and provide
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them tools to help them, you
know, get over the barriers of applying
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to your school, of accepting and
depositing your school and then ultimately, you
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know, becoming matriculated there. So
it's a good conversation, so be sure
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to stay stay tuned. Here's our
conversation with Peter Samuelson. Is My pleasure
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to welcome Peter Samuelson of our dao
education solutions to the Higher Ed Marketer podcast.
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How you doing today, Peter?
Very good, troy, thanks for
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having me on the podcast. Great
to join you. It is our pleasure
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and we can't wait to hear everything
you'd like to give us about how colleges
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can utilize loan repayment assistant programs to
enhance their enrollment. But before that,
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if you can give us a little
bit about you, your role and how
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you came up with this idea?
Sure things. So My name Peter Samuelson.
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I'm the president and founder at our
dao education solutions. We've been doing
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this for some years now, helping
colleges grow their enrollment by really helping students
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go to college. And this just
comes out of my personal life. I
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was coming out of college at Greenville
College Down There St Louis, heading to
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law school and wanted to go to
Yale law school but couldn't afford it.
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Right that classic phrase that students sale
the time is I can't afford it,
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and so I put in my deposits
to go to University of Chicago Law School
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and then discovered the Yel had this
great program. They called it a career
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options assistance program, but every law
school who copied them calls it a loan
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repayment assistance program and lay up for
short and the promise was come here,
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borrow a ton of money, pay
us that borrowed money and when you graduate,
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if your income is low, will
make your loan payments for you.
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So just a great program that said, yeah, I can go to get
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a law school, I can do
public interest work when I graduate. I'm
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not going to be burdened by a
load of debt because I can go do
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anything I want afterwards. And that
gave me the freedom to go to Yale
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instead of Chicago. Had A great
experience there. I use the program for
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a year afterwards to do human rights
work in Sudan and in Hong Kong,
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and so really affected where I went
to school, how I started my career.
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I ended up on Wall Street,
paid off the loans like most people
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do, which was great, but
was just delighted to have that freedom to
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go anywhere I want to do anything
I wanted. That is wonderful. And
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then from that experience the idea from
Ordeo arrived. But sure so, a
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few years later I was looking to
join the board of a college where my
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mom taught. So I grew up
in McPherson, Kansas, the home of
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central Christian College. Small little school
right, totally different experience from Yale.
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Totally different student body, but really
the same enrollment problem, which was they
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were admitting lots of students. Doing
all that marketing work to bring the students
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in bringing the applications, admit the
students. And then seventy five percent of
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students who are admitted said no,
we can't afford it, we're going somewhere
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else. Obviously lots of reasons that
go somewhere else, but you know,
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the dominant reason to not attend after
being admitted was we just don't want to
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borrow the money. Right. And
so I thought, you know, we
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need the same program Yale has.
Let's tell these students, let's say we're
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sure you're making a good economic investment, we're confident you're going to get a
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good job. Most of you write, and that's true at most colleges.
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You know, eighty percent, ninety
percent of graduates do get a good job.
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But there is that bottom group of
students, at ten or twenty percent
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at every college every year who struggle
to get a job. They come out
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with student loans. That burden really
hurts and everyone hears about those, right,
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if you've got a nephew and Nie, a daughter, son at a
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CO worker at work, you hear
about those, those hard cases. So
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I thought, why don't we make
the same promise you all made to me?
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And let's make let's give students the
comfort and the confidence they need to
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come here and matriculates and get the
value of this education. I love that
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idea because I think that not only
are you solving a real world problem.
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I mean much like you know,
you experienced yourself at Yale being able to
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go out and then do some social
impact type of law, but I mean,
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you know, a lot of the
really good schools for for you know,
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really good types of education. Sometimes, you know, it's challenging,
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and I'm thinking of some smaller private
colleges right now where, you know,
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a lot of their going to graduate, a lot of nurses or a lot
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of teachers or a lot of pastors
and faith based leaders, and sometimes those
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careers don't have the largest incomes.
And you know, take a lawyer.
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I mean what's one thing, a
lawyer and a doctor being able to pay
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back and being able to provide that
for them, but just for the for
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folks like you who called into ministry
to be able to go to a really
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good Christian, you know, private
school. It's not the same as going
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to community college. So I'm saying
that really plays out well with us.
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Is as well well it does.
You know, you mentioned teachers teachers are
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just a great example for us because
when a teacher lands at full time job,
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usually a union base job, right, they get a good pay.
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But so often when a student gets
a teaching degree and starts their substitute teaching
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and they're also working at starbucks and
for that year or two until they land
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the full time Gig, they're not
making that much money. And we help
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a lot of those students, a
lot of those graduates. And then you
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mention the ministry. Right, a
lot of people, as they are high
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school seniors, go into college.
If they're looking at a Christian college,
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they're very often wondering, am I
going to head into some ministry related job?
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And through college they make that decision. Some do, many don't,
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but it's nice for that to still
be an option for them if they have
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an l wrap in place and know
that they don't have to worry about the
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income when they graduate and they can
pursue that calling if they want to pursue
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that calling. So let's talk about
how a college and university can benefit by
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promoting, by marketing l wraps and
how they can utilize it to enhance their
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enrollment. Sure so you know,
when people ask me what I do?
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I say I help students go to
college, and that's really what we're doing,
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is we're helping students go to their
first choice college and that of course
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helps colleges. So our economic model
is we sell this program to colleges,
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colleges give it to their students and
the way a college does this as they
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sign up with us and then we
work with that college to help them figure
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out which of their perspective students should
they give these l raps to. So
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they can look at their segments and
anywhere that they have low yield. So
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out of states student Sudents is off
at a segment where they have really low
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yield, right. Or maybe low
EFC students, or maybe it's the nonathletes,
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or maybe they're going to add l
wrap to some of their scholarship students
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who aren't getting the top scholarships just
to suitet in it and make that deal
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a little better for them. Right. Maybe they're restarting a major where they
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want to rebuild that major, or
they have a brand new major where they're
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trying to draw some attraction to it. So anywhere where they have a segment
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where the yield is lower than they
want they can add l wrap into that
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offer to those students and help out. And then almost every college, as
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they go from March, April May
and they've sent out those financial aid awards
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and they're waiting for students to show
up. In August or September, they
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suffer summer melt and they have a
whole bunch of students in their funnel that
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go stale and quit talking to them. So you can definitely use l rap
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as a tool to respond to summer
melt and to work with the stale funnel
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through the late springing through the summer
to find those students who have said I
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wanted to come but I'm nervous and
I'm reluctant to borrow and change that equation,
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turn that no into a yes.
That's great. And then, and
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then I'm guessing that sometimes, you
know, looking at the data. Then
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I'm sure that you have some data
that shows that students who you know,
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have the security of this type of
way to not only begin their college career
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in matriculate, but also then to
retain and actually, you know, complete
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and graduate. I'm sure that that
security for a student and their family probably
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does play in a lot to the
retention? Is that true? Absolutely,
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definitely boost retention and graduation rate,
sometimes by quite a bit. Now depends
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on why the student came. If
the student wanted to go to your college
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and l rap enables them to go, it's going to boost retention rate by
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probably about ten percentage points all the
way through graduation. If you were their
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second choice or they weren't that excited
about you, but I'll wrap kind of
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twisted their arm and said go ahead
and try it, not going to see
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a retention boost with that group of
students, but certainly there's a big boost
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with students who view your specific college
as the place they want to go,
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their preferred choice. Right. And
then what about I know you've done some
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some research and working with Ruffelo Nol
levits are now on some some of this
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data and kind of how this impacts
the during Roman decisions and, I guess
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specifically the SOC and come in Firstgen
type of students. You've talked a little
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bit about that, but anything specific
to the RNL research that you've kind of
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discovered? Yeah, we do research
with every year. We do it internally.
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A lot of our clients do their
own research, but this last year
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we did a big survey with Rufflonel
leavitts had a really great sample size.
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Was Fun to work with a partner, with someone like ourn l to do
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it and just got the same results
we always see but, you know,
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even more detail than we've often seen. So they did a survey a one
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fifteen hundred students in the summer who
had and had not matriculated but had been
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offered l rap. Sixteen percent of
those who matriculated said they would not have
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matriculated except for L rap. And
what was really interesting is thirteen percent who
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did not matriculate said they would have
matriculated if they had been offered l rap.
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Right. So that's just a huge
group of students. I'll there that
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these colleges could have successfully recruited if
they had gone ahead and make the offer.
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And then you mentioned students of color, first generation low income. One
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of the great details we got out
of this are inhale study, because it's
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bigger than the ones we've done before, is the impact was almost twice as
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big for students of color, first
generation and low income. Specifically, twenty
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four percent of students of color said
they would not have come without being offered
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the all rap twenty seven percent of
those whose families had incomes below a hundred
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thousand said the same thing, and
twenty four percent of those whose parents did
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not have a college degree of the
same thing. And when you talk to
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colleges, every college today wants more
students of color, more first generation more
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students from low income backgrounds. Right
those are the students who have the biggest
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social need to get that the advantage
as the college offers, and it's really
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exciting that our program makes such a
different, big difference in letting them go
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to the college they want to go
to. I think that's great and I
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love the fact that it's not only
marketing this to the college is to help
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them understand it, but then giving
the college as tools to be able to
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market to the students. Because,
I mean, I know at myself as
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a first generation student and showy it
was also a first generation student. You
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don't know what you don't know when
you're walking into college, and so you
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know when you're talking to mom and
dad and saying, Hey, I'd really
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like to go to this school and
they're like, oh, we can't afford
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that. Well, I'll take loans
out. Will you can't afford that with
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your career, having something like this
and being educated and having the student be
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able to say, well, my
college amissions counselor showed me this. I'd
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never heard of it. What do
you think? That? I think builds
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that security, builds that trust and
obviously builds that that ability for them to
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go. So that's that's really exciting. I know that one of the things
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kind of we're talking about there,
because, I mean you talked a lot
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about students of color and low income
and first generation students, sometimes Tho as
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the ones that are going to be
most impacted, but sometimes are the ones
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that are often on the fence of
trying to figure out is college worth it,
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and and I know that that that's
some, you know, some research
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that's being done under that title right
now, College Worth it research initiative,
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and so tell me a little bit
about how you guys are involved in that
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and what's going on with that as
well. Sure. So, you know,
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we love talking to families and students
when they have those questions about is
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college worth it? Can I really
afford it? One of the things we
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do is when our college partners offer
lap to students is we run a whole
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media campaign at cadence with them.
We email them, send them postcards but,
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most importantly, we get on the
phone and we talked to them because
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we want to explain how this l
rap works and often in those conversations we
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get to rebut some of those common
misconceptions about is college worth it, and
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when you read media articles, it's
really easy for the media to write a
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story that talks about some student with
hundred thousand a debt. Only one percent
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of undergraduate graduates come out with a
hundred thousand a debt. The people with
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hunder thousand dollars of debt are doctors
and lawyers and, like you said,
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no one's worried about doctors and lawyers
paying off their loans. Right. The
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average undergraduate only has thirty three thousand
in loans when they come out of college,
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but the media stell stories and says
on average they have ninety four thousand.
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Right. So there's this huge misconception
and that does such a disservice to
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these families where the students, like
you said, they want to go to
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a college. They asked mom and
Dad and mom and dad are skeptical.
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Right, you can't borrow that much. And if they really think they have
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to borrow a hundred thousand to go
to college. That's totally going to dissuade
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them because they can't do that and
they're the job they get isn't going to
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pay that back right. But when
they learn they only have to borrow thirtyzero
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probably on average, that's much more
viable, especially when they have the safety
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net that l rap gives them,
the promises them. If, in for
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whatever reason, you have struggled making
those loan payments, getting a better income
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as you graduate will help you out. What's really exciting for us on the
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back end is we help twenty,
five thirty percent of graduates who struggle right
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out of the gates, but within
a year most of them get really good
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pay raises. It's really fun to
see that over the course of a year
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after graduation so many of them find
that much better job, whether it's a
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substitute teacher getting the full time job
or the person in some business career getting
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a promotion, whatever it is,
within a year or two almost all of
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them have seen significant income growth,
which is nice. That's great. So
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Peter has we were talking about all
that. One of the things that I
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have in mind. I mean my
kids. One of my kids go to
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Pretty University and I know President Mitch
Daniels, and we've had Ethan Braden,
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the vice president of enrollment, on
the show couple times. But I'm always
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influenced with a lot of things I
hear from purdue and I've been aware of
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our Daoh and before you are Our
da Oh, you were l rap and
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you've been doing this for a number
of years. Since then I've heard the
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initiative from from at least from purdue, this back of boiler. It's the
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idea that you know, alumni will
basically invest in students of need and other
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people that might typically qualify like for
an l rap, but they would basically
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be investing in them with with a
return on that investment later on. It's
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more of an investment tool for the
alumni than it is a safety net for
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the student. So tell me a
little bit about that and how that relates
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to what you're doing. Sure so, in some ways it's very similar.
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Both we and, if you know, that's an income share agreement, is
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the generic name for that back of
boiler program. And you mentioned for due
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right a great school. Mitch has
been a great leader in higher education doing
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a lot of innovative things and there's
a lot of interest in higher ed financial
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aid. Right. How do you
finance student loans and income based repayment is
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both what's is is as do and
what l reps do right. We're going
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to look at your income after graduation
and use that in some way to determine
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how you finance your education. The
really big difference between ISA as and l
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wraps is every school has a few
students who just can't borrow that last five
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thousand dollars they need and the is
Isa fills that gap and provides the actual
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cash they need for that last five
thous we don't provide a loan as L
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rap. We don't fill that gap, we don't solve the need for that
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group of students. What we do
is work with a much larger group of
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students who have available to them the
loans to borrow, whether federal or private
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loans, and they just don't want
to borrow and we make them comfortable borrowing
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all of those student loans that are
available. So I think that the use
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case for is is as and l
raps are quite different with different groups of
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students. A college can certainly do
both I think we can help them work
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with more students and I think students
have been very, very happy with the
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l raps we provide across, you
know, hundreds of colleges now over the
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last ten years. That's great.
Thank you. As we bring our conversation
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to a close, we always ask
our guests is there a topic or a
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takeaway that you could offer that would
be immediately implementable by someone, especially someone
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that's considering a program like yours?
So I think something immediately that they could
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take away and do is most clients
of ours, most college partners who use
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L rap, they start in the
spring and they do a pilot with a
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few students. This is the perfect
time to start right financial aid awards have
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gone out the door or are going
out the door. Admissions counselors have students
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who are raising their hand and say
I'm reluctant to borrow that money, I
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can't afford it, I don't want
to borrow colleges who are interested in intrigued
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by this idea should just sign up
with us for a pilot and let their
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admissions counselors make this offer to a
few of those students who raise their hand
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and what they're going to find out
is are going to find out the power
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of that promise, the power of
that a rat promise, to really turn
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that skepticism of around and turn that
no, I can't come to a yes.
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I can come and I'm excited.
So We'd love to see people just
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try it out, tested on a
few students and see if it works.
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That's wonderful and, Peter, thank
you so much for being a guest today.
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You've definitely brought some wonderful information.
Just want to make sure we've covered
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everything that you would like to have
covered today and is there anything additional that
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you would like to add? You
know, delighted to be on your show
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to day, Troy Bart, thanks
for having us. If anyone has any
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more questions about this, you know
we are always eager to talk about it.
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Our website is our DAO aardo dot
org. My own email is Peter
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at our Dal Education Dot Org.
Would be happy to follow up with any
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questions any of your listeners and thank
you very much, Peter Bart. Would
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you have any final thoughts that you
would like to share? Yeah, I
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think that this is a really good
example of when we're looking at higher ad
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marketing, really understanding the needs of
your perspective students and understanding what would be
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the challenges that they might need to
overcome. I mean, we talk about
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messaging a lot and we talk about
branding and we talked about ways to make
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sure that we're answering the questions that
students have. I mean that's that's basic,
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you know, marketing one hundred and
one. But I think this is
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a good example of sometimes, as
hired marketers, we might not go deep
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enough to understand what those true issues
are that's keeping them from coming to your
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school. It might not be the
fact that they don't like your school.
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It might not be the fact that
you don't have their major, it might
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not be the fact of anything that
you typically think of. It might be
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the fact of their own fear of
being able to repay it back their loans
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or or be able to be successful
enough to afford an education. And so
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I think that what Peters talked about
today is really important for us, as
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highed marketers, to really understand the
full spectrum of the of the student,
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understand the full spectrum of the families
and what their concerns are and then,
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as high ed marketers, as enrollment
professionals provide the tools and the education to
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them to allow them to make those
decisions to actually matriculate and graduate successfully from
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your school. You know, certainly
it's better for them to get into your
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school and graduate and be successful alumni
and always have good things to say about
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your school then to just turn away
and go to some place that they really
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didn't want or never end up in
higher education to begin with. So I
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think these are some really good marketing
lessons all the way through and and what
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a great opportunity to talk about a
tool like this that could be part of
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the marketing tool kit for enrollment and
going from there. So thanks again,
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Peter, for being on the show
today. Thank you for thank you,
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00:19:42.890 --> 00:19:47.690
troy. That brings us to the
end of a wonderful episode. The High
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00:19:47.730 --> 00:19:52.880
Ed Market of podcast is sponsored by
Kaylor solutions and education marketing and branding agency
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00:19:52.279 --> 00:19:56.759
and by Think, patented, a
marketing, execution, printing and mailing provider
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00:19:57.119 --> 00:20:04.480
of Higher Ed Solutions. Thank you
all for joining us. You've been listening
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00:20:04.519 --> 00:20:08.269
to the Higher Ed Marketer. To
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