Why Marketers Should Always Start With Why

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:06.320 The High Red Marketer podcast is sponsored by the ZEMI APP enabling colleges and universities 2 00:00:06.519 --> 00:00:14.560 to engage interested students before they even apply. You're listening to the Higher Ed 3 00:00:14.640 --> 00:00:19.920 Marketer, a podcast geared towards marketing professionals in higher education. This show will 4 00:00:19.920 --> 00:00:24.800 tackle all sorts of questions related to student recruitment, donor relations, marketing trends, 5 00:00:24.800 --> 00:00:29.559 new technologies and so much more. If you're looking for conversations centered around 6 00:00:29.600 --> 00:00:33.759 where the industry is going, this podcast is for you. Let's get into 7 00:00:33.799 --> 00:00:46.159 the show. Welcome to the High Reed Marketer podcast. I'm troy singer here 8 00:00:46.159 --> 00:00:51.320 with Bart Kaylor. Today we interview Chris Bender, who is the assistant deed 9 00:00:51.359 --> 00:00:57.119 for communications for the Aid James Clark School of Engineering at the University of Maryland 10 00:00:57.679 --> 00:01:03.280 and if you have a conversation with risks, his overall value that he will 11 00:01:03.320 --> 00:01:10.239 bring to that conversation is convincing marketers that they should speak and think more strategically 12 00:01:10.359 --> 00:01:15.480 instead of tactically, and he makes a great case for this within our podcast 13 00:01:15.480 --> 00:01:19.879 today. Yeah, try, I really enjoy the conversations with Chris. I 14 00:01:19.879 --> 00:01:23.079 mean this is you know, we've we've had several conversations with him and leading 15 00:01:23.120 --> 00:01:26.519 up to this podcast recording. But, um, he's so articulate and thoughtful 16 00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:30.840 in what he what he brings to the table and I really appreciate his desire 17 00:01:32.280 --> 00:01:34.400 not only for himself but for really kind of, uh, you know, 18 00:01:34.439 --> 00:01:38.680 illustrating it by example, of really trying to be more strategic in the way 19 00:01:38.719 --> 00:01:42.799 that he does all of his work, whether it's in the way he describes 20 00:01:42.879 --> 00:01:47.760 the management style that he has with his team or whether he's describing how to 21 00:01:47.799 --> 00:01:52.359 communicate, Um, the the impact that the marketing is making to various, 22 00:01:52.640 --> 00:01:56.239 you know, constituents on campus. I really think he brings a lot to 23 00:01:56.319 --> 00:01:59.840 the table. I would encourage you to kind of listen to this and he 24 00:02:00.040 --> 00:02:04.000 has some resources that he points out, a couple you know television shows that 25 00:02:04.079 --> 00:02:07.840 he encourages everyone to watch, as well as a book or two that he 26 00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:12.400 might mention as well. But it's it's such a rich conversation and and again 27 00:02:12.479 --> 00:02:15.800 we're we're kind of taking it to a strategic level on the way that we 28 00:02:15.879 --> 00:02:19.360 think about strategy today. So there's not gonna be a lot of tactics that 29 00:02:19.400 --> 00:02:22.400 you're gonna walk away with, but if there's plenty of notes that you can 30 00:02:22.400 --> 00:02:25.000 take on how to be a better, higher ed marketer. Here's our conversation 31 00:02:25.080 --> 00:02:32.240 with Chris Bender. We really appreciate Chris Coming on the PODCAST and being willing 32 00:02:32.280 --> 00:02:38.759 to share his opinion and knowledge of why marketers should think more strategically. But, 33 00:02:38.960 --> 00:02:42.479 Chris, before we go into the conversation, if you would please share 34 00:02:42.599 --> 00:02:46.680 something new and interesting that you've learned recently? Okay, I have a random 35 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:52.759 one. So this is for anybody that has house plants. So in our 36 00:02:52.800 --> 00:02:59.280 home we have approximately ten, ten, ten or so house plants and this 37 00:02:59.360 --> 00:03:00.759 is, we don't doubt, for a much higher number. This was a 38 00:03:00.840 --> 00:03:07.360 long negotiation process with my wife anyway. So there's a plant in our bedroom 39 00:03:07.400 --> 00:03:13.919 that has what plant people I didn't know but I now know as Spider Mites, 40 00:03:13.960 --> 00:03:16.719 and there are these tiny, tiny, tiny bugs and I had no 41 00:03:16.800 --> 00:03:20.520 idea how to get rid of them and I thought I was going to have 42 00:03:20.560 --> 00:03:22.639 to get rid of this plant, which I sort of like. But it 43 00:03:22.639 --> 00:03:25.479 turns out you can treat the plant with a little bit of alcohol, like 44 00:03:25.520 --> 00:03:30.599 you put it on a cute tip and then you rub the leaf and then 45 00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:32.080 you watch it off, and I had no idea you could do that. 46 00:03:32.159 --> 00:03:38.319 I thought alcohol was too Abrasive for a plant, but Kudos to one of 47 00:03:38.360 --> 00:03:43.039 my coworkers, Olga, she sort of turned beyond this solution and now the 48 00:03:43.080 --> 00:03:46.960 plant is in much better shape, so it will stay. Thank you. 49 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:50.439 Yeah, that is wonderful. And at the end of the podcast when you 50 00:03:50.479 --> 00:03:53.680 give your contact information, it's not only for Higher Ed marketing but it's also 51 00:03:54.360 --> 00:04:01.560 for growing plants. Yeah, if you tell us a little bit about your 52 00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:06.319 role at the University of Maryland? Sure, so. I'm the Assistant Dean 53 00:04:06.400 --> 00:04:13.199 for Communications and I am really fortunate to work with a super talented team of 54 00:04:13.240 --> 00:04:16.399 individuals. They are all really good at what they do. They're all committed. 55 00:04:16.920 --> 00:04:19.720 We have a pretty flat way of operating in that you know at the 56 00:04:19.800 --> 00:04:23.480 end of the day, if the decision needs to get made, the people 57 00:04:23.560 --> 00:04:27.600 that know who need to make those decisions make the decisions. But there's a 58 00:04:27.639 --> 00:04:30.399 lot of collaboration, a lot of discussion. We talk a lot about what 59 00:04:30.439 --> 00:04:34.360 we think is the right thing to do. I, as a management philosophy, 60 00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:38.240 more facilitation philosophy, have this belief that, like, you get the 61 00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:41.759 best ideas when you get the people in the room, and so I think 62 00:04:42.079 --> 00:04:46.600 my job is a couple fold. I think one is to provide strategic direction 63 00:04:46.839 --> 00:04:50.480 for the team. You know, the team, rightfully, is very focused 64 00:04:50.519 --> 00:04:53.519 on, you know, what are we gonna do this week or what are 65 00:04:53.519 --> 00:04:55.959 we gonna do this month, and I think my job as a sort of 66 00:04:56.439 --> 00:04:59.360 push us solid think about where do we want to be in six or twelve 67 00:04:59.360 --> 00:05:02.079 months and then how do we link the day they work that we're doing to 68 00:05:02.279 --> 00:05:05.600 that six to twelve month goal? I think, too, it's to be 69 00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:12.920 a strategic advisor to leadership, so if a slippery situation comes up or an 70 00:05:12.920 --> 00:05:15.879 opportunity comes up, you know, to offer the best advice from the communications 71 00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:20.120 perspective about the right way to manage it. I think three, it's to 72 00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:27.439 represent what we do both internally and externally, and I think externally it's it's 73 00:05:27.439 --> 00:05:30.680 opportunities like this. But I think internally, you know a lot of times, 74 00:05:30.680 --> 00:05:34.399 and we can talk about this more, communicators not just an education but 75 00:05:34.399 --> 00:05:39.680 but generally I think, don't sell themselves as powerfully as they could. And 76 00:05:39.720 --> 00:05:43.680 so I think part of my job is to really make sure that our internal 77 00:05:43.879 --> 00:05:46.839 internal clients, internal partners like understand what we do, understand the value that 78 00:05:46.879 --> 00:05:50.959 we provide understand how we work and understand how best to work with us and 79 00:05:51.000 --> 00:05:55.160 how we could best work with them. And I think the last thing is 80 00:05:55.560 --> 00:05:59.839 to keep an eye on what's going on in the world, not just, 81 00:06:00.120 --> 00:06:02.199 you know, in communications, but generally, like what are the trends? 82 00:06:02.279 --> 00:06:04.720 You know, what's hot, what are people talking about? Where are they 83 00:06:04.720 --> 00:06:10.079 getting information, and like seeing what we can learn for those things and bringing 84 00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:14.519 them to the table. And I think all that is sort of wrapped around 85 00:06:14.560 --> 00:06:19.600 making sure that the group feels, you know, valued, respected Um like 86 00:06:19.600 --> 00:06:24.959 we're meeting their their needs for performance on the job, like we're thinking about 87 00:06:24.959 --> 00:06:28.879 work life balance, that kind of stuff. Thank you, Chris, and 88 00:06:28.879 --> 00:06:31.480 I think you've mentioned a lot that we can touch on during our time together. 89 00:06:31.839 --> 00:06:36.680 The first thing I wanted to ask you is about differentiation. I know 90 00:06:36.720 --> 00:06:42.639 a lot of higher end marketers think it's hard to differentiate themselves from other schools 91 00:06:42.680 --> 00:06:46.839 and would love to get your philosophy on how marketers could better do that. 92 00:06:48.319 --> 00:06:50.879 So, yeah, I think you hit upon it right. You know, 93 00:06:51.279 --> 00:06:56.000 the way I try to think about it is that at the end of the 94 00:06:56.079 --> 00:06:59.199 day, you know, all of us are doing sort of the same thing. 95 00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:01.839 You know, whether you work at a small liberal arts institution or whether 96 00:07:01.879 --> 00:07:06.480 you work at a big R one engineering institution. We're all trying to like, 97 00:07:08.720 --> 00:07:11.800 sell our ideas into the marketplace. And if you think about you know 98 00:07:12.120 --> 00:07:15.920 your audience as a bull's eye. Everyone is trying to get their Arrow into 99 00:07:15.959 --> 00:07:17.360 the middle of the bull's eye. So you have to be thinking about, 100 00:07:17.800 --> 00:07:23.720 you know, what's going to make my Arrow faster or bigger or come from 101 00:07:23.720 --> 00:07:28.560 a different angle, and I think the first way to do that is research. 102 00:07:28.600 --> 00:07:32.399 You've got to have a really good understanding of what what's happening around you. 103 00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:35.759 You know. So me as an example, I need to know what 104 00:07:35.920 --> 00:07:41.279 the other big ten plus engineering schools are doing from marketing perspective and I need 105 00:07:41.319 --> 00:07:44.399 to learn from that. And if I know that we're competing for the same 106 00:07:44.439 --> 00:07:47.800 talent pool, whether it's students or faculty or staff or speakers or donors or 107 00:07:47.839 --> 00:07:53.079 whatever, I need to be thinking about how can we position ourselves in a 108 00:07:53.120 --> 00:07:58.079 way that is unique and different and more powerful. I think a second thing 109 00:07:58.439 --> 00:08:05.480 is really thinking about trends that happen outside education that can influence what we do 110 00:08:05.639 --> 00:08:09.519 education. I think it's easy, whatever industry you're in. Right if you're 111 00:08:09.519 --> 00:08:13.000 in healthcare. I think in healthcare communications, I think it's easy to get 112 00:08:13.040 --> 00:08:18.399 trapped and only looking at what's happening in healthcare communications. If you're in hospitality 113 00:08:18.399 --> 00:08:20.079 communications, I think it's easy to get trapped in looking at what the other 114 00:08:20.120 --> 00:08:24.319 big hotel chains are doing. But I think to be really good at what 115 00:08:24.360 --> 00:08:26.959 all of us do, you know, you've got to be able to take 116 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:33.279 a step back and say what what's moving the needle these days? What is 117 00:08:33.399 --> 00:08:39.000 unique, what is different, what are people tuning into, and how can 118 00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:41.840 we jump on some of those trends or how can we utilize the lessons from 119 00:08:41.879 --> 00:08:46.679 those trends in a way that works really well for US in communications? I 120 00:08:46.879 --> 00:08:50.480 will give you a quick example, if you don't mind. So we just 121 00:08:50.600 --> 00:08:56.360 opened this fantastic facility called the idea factory that's going to be home to robotics 122 00:08:56.399 --> 00:09:01.440 research, quantum research, autonomousis research, so on and so forth, and 123 00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:05.720 at the dedication event, which was in May, we did this video, 124 00:09:07.080 --> 00:09:11.159 this kind of two to three minute video tour of the facility, and we 125 00:09:11.240 --> 00:09:16.759 talked a lot about how to do it. But I had watched hard knocks 126 00:09:16.759 --> 00:09:20.720 with the Dallas cowboys the previous summer. Now I'm a San Diego chargers fan. 127 00:09:20.799 --> 00:09:22.200 Noticed I said San Diego, not L A, but I bring this 128 00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:26.159 up because you know, it's sort of a ritual in our house. Like 129 00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:30.360 come football season we watched hard knocks and at the beginning of the second or 130 00:09:30.399 --> 00:09:35.120 third season, sorry, the second or third episode of hard knocks from the 131 00:09:35.159 --> 00:09:39.240 cowboys season, there is a drone fly through of the facility where the cowboys 132 00:09:39.240 --> 00:09:43.279 practice and it is amazing. I would encourage everybody to watch it. It's 133 00:09:43.320 --> 00:09:48.240 like three minutes and the drone just does not stop. It goes in the 134 00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:52.639 door, it goes around the practice facility, it goes in the weight room. 135 00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:56.639 It's it's incredible and I had this idea that like, why don't we 136 00:09:56.720 --> 00:10:01.600 do that for the idea factory, because, like, drones are trending, 137 00:10:01.679 --> 00:10:05.080 it's interestring, it pulls people in and and I don't get the credit for 138 00:10:05.120 --> 00:10:09.720 executing it, our videographer lead did all the hard work. But I think 139 00:10:09.759 --> 00:10:13.559 the point of the matter is the idea came from a totally different place and 140 00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:16.000 we brought it into education and used it in a way that was powerful. 141 00:10:16.080 --> 00:10:20.679 So it's just an example to say like, look around, you know, 142 00:10:20.759 --> 00:10:24.039 see what's happening around you, see what's interesting, see what's unique, see 143 00:10:24.039 --> 00:10:28.320 what turns your head, you know, and then try to pull some of 144 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:30.919 those things in. Some of them will work, some of them won't, 145 00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:33.320 but but be open to experimenting. I think I love that idea, Chris, 146 00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:37.360 and I I think that, you know, a lot of times I'll 147 00:10:37.399 --> 00:10:39.960 tell my clients to take a look at, you know, what's what's target 148 00:10:39.039 --> 00:10:43.799 doing, what's what's happening out there in, you know, similar industries that 149 00:10:43.840 --> 00:10:48.320 are, you know, targeting you know, generation Z or or your potential 150 00:10:48.399 --> 00:10:50.759 students. I mean, you know, look at what Apple's doing. I 151 00:10:50.759 --> 00:10:54.519 mean apple has been, you know, utilizing the iphone and you know, 152 00:10:54.600 --> 00:10:56.960 back in the day when they were, you know, doing the ipod and 153 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:01.120 things like that, they had a very nique perspective on how to market to 154 00:11:01.480 --> 00:11:05.120 the same, you know, age frame, and so I think a lot 155 00:11:05.120 --> 00:11:07.759 of times we can do that. Take a nod from what's going on in 156 00:11:07.799 --> 00:11:11.240 corporate take a nod and what's going on in social and I think there's a 157 00:11:11.279 --> 00:11:15.720 lot of opportunities there that. Many times, I think as higher ed marketers, 158 00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:18.240 we kind of tend to start looking too closely to our belly buttons and 159 00:11:18.279 --> 00:11:24.320 not really looking out beyond the education area. I think part of it too, 160 00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:26.519 is is thinking about the work that we do in a different frame. 161 00:11:26.840 --> 00:11:30.840 So, as an example, you know, I think a lot of times 162 00:11:30.919 --> 00:11:33.519 again, regardless of what aspect of communications you're in, you know, if 163 00:11:33.559 --> 00:11:37.639 you're in telecom, you think about you know, we're gonna, we're gonna 164 00:11:37.879 --> 00:11:43.000 market a telecom story we're telling, we're selling telecom products, or if you're 165 00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:45.600 in education, you know we're trying to get people to come here. And 166 00:11:45.720 --> 00:11:48.559 and that's true. But I think again it's like, okay, take that 167 00:11:48.639 --> 00:11:50.399 step back and say to yourself, well, what are we really doing here? 168 00:11:50.840 --> 00:11:54.799 and to me, I think, regardless of whether you're in again, 169 00:11:54.840 --> 00:11:58.159 you know, telecom or hotels or communications for education, like we all are, 170 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:03.080 like you're selling an idea, right, and the idea for us in 171 00:12:03.159 --> 00:12:09.919 engineering education is that this is a place where you can have access to, 172 00:12:09.080 --> 00:12:13.559 you know, the most cutting edge, interesting people, research facilities that are 173 00:12:13.559 --> 00:12:16.799 going to give you the tools to go change the world, like that's the 174 00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:20.440 idea. And if you step back and say to yourself, okay, so 175 00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:24.159 how do companies, how do it think takes or how do other education institutions 176 00:12:24.200 --> 00:12:30.799 sell ideas. That's really there are probably plenty of people to do that, 177 00:12:30.879 --> 00:12:33.120 but I would challenge people to say, like, think about it that way, 178 00:12:33.159 --> 00:12:37.360 like you're you're selling an idea, you're selling a concept and that is 179 00:12:37.399 --> 00:12:41.919 the concept. And then what do you need to do tactically to drive that? 180 00:12:41.440 --> 00:12:43.720 If that makes sense. It does make sense and you know, one 181 00:12:43.720 --> 00:12:46.639 of the one of the shows I enjoy watching sometimes when I'm traveling is shark 182 00:12:46.679 --> 00:12:50.879 tank, and I think that you know the idea of how they're pitching their 183 00:12:50.919 --> 00:12:56.000 ideas, how they're expressing themselves with these new things. I think there's a 184 00:12:56.000 --> 00:12:58.919 lot that can be gathered from that and learned. Um, I know you 185 00:12:58.960 --> 00:13:03.120 had referenced the Reality Show The pitch from a MC uh in our early pre 186 00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:07.559 pre conversation and I since then I've watched a few episodes of that and I 187 00:13:07.600 --> 00:13:13.519 think that's that gets some different brain cells moving as well. And maybe tell 188 00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:16.120 me a little bit about your experience with watching that, because I think you 189 00:13:16.159 --> 00:13:20.080 applied some of the thinking with that on that particular pilot episode. Yeah, 190 00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:24.399 so, first of all I would encourage everybody, as a laundry folding show, 191 00:13:24.519 --> 00:13:28.399 to watch the pitch if you don't know about the pitch, it's a 192 00:13:28.440 --> 00:13:31.639 show on AMC that ran right about the mad men time frames. So you 193 00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:35.279 know, everyone knows about mad men and if you you don't, then stop 194 00:13:35.320 --> 00:13:39.759 watching right now and go watch mad men and then come back to this podcast. 195 00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:43.480 So you can probably want stuff. Um. The pitch is the show 196 00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:48.759 is a reality show about, Um, you know, marketing firms, advertising 197 00:13:48.759 --> 00:13:52.559 agencies, and the concept basically is that there's a client at the beginning of 198 00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:58.120 the show that's got a marketing problem or an advertising problem. Two advertising agencies 199 00:13:58.159 --> 00:14:03.480 are brought in to try and figure out a solution. The show catalogs all 200 00:14:03.480 --> 00:14:07.000 of the creative development they do and then at the end they both pitch and 201 00:14:07.080 --> 00:14:09.840 somebody wins. The reason, you know, clearly I like it because this 202 00:14:09.879 --> 00:14:13.399 is what we do and it's interesting. But the other reason I like it 203 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:18.360 is like you get a bird's eye view as to how other people approach the 204 00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:22.279 same challenges, you know. So A it's a learning it's a learning opportunity 205 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:26.600 from the standpoint of watching other people be creative, watching how other teams work, 206 00:14:26.960 --> 00:14:31.320 watching how people collaborate, collaborate and like you could draw things that you 207 00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:33.200 think irrelevant into your work, but to the point. You know, you 208 00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:37.960 were just making Bart. So the first episode, and I'm gonna have to 209 00:14:37.960 --> 00:14:41.559 give a spoiler, I'm so sorry, but the first episode is about subway 210 00:14:41.960 --> 00:14:45.759 and you know, subway is in this episode really trying to think about how 211 00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:50.440 to sell it to breakfast products. And two firms come in and one firm 212 00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:54.440 does this whole like Zombie thing, right, they do this, Um, 213 00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:58.840 they do it. It's called ZAMBIES. It's like breakfast and zombies, zambies, 214 00:14:58.919 --> 00:15:01.679 and it's it's rate. It's first of all, it's great today, 215 00:15:01.720 --> 00:15:05.960 I think, but it was at the time when all the zombies were the 216 00:15:05.039 --> 00:15:09.360 rage and, like you know, so it's timeline. This other firm came 217 00:15:09.399 --> 00:15:13.000 in and they did this campaign that, if I remember it was called like 218 00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:18.279 let's remake breakfast. And you know, you watch the show and I admit 219 00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:22.240 I was convinced the Zombie firm was gonna win. Now, maybe the shows 220 00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:24.679 that I'm totally like shower was all into that trend or whatever. But the 221 00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:30.679 other firm one and after the show Tony Pace, who was the guy at 222 00:15:30.679 --> 00:15:33.159 that point that was the CMO for subway, talked about you know, you 223 00:15:33.279 --> 00:15:39.240 gotta go with the durable idea, and it really stuck with me, you 224 00:15:39.279 --> 00:15:43.039 know, because I think what we have to be able to do is find 225 00:15:43.039 --> 00:15:50.000 an idea that has both breakthrough and durable, you know, something that punches 226 00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:52.240 through, punches up, gets out of the clutter, gets into the center 227 00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:54.600 of that bowls light, whatever you want to say, and at the same 228 00:15:54.639 --> 00:16:00.200 time like sticks with people. And again I think it goes back to at 229 00:16:00.279 --> 00:16:03.600 original point we were talking about tenners so minutes ago. At some level, 230 00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:07.639 you know, all of the work that we do is similar, just like 231 00:16:07.759 --> 00:16:11.519 all of the work that hotel marketing is similar, just like all of the 232 00:16:11.559 --> 00:16:15.960 work that auto marketing is similar. So, like, what are you gonna 233 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:18.679 say that's gonna make you stick apart? And I think actually the more fund 234 00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:22.000 and on a question is like how are you going to say it that's different? 235 00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:26.039 You know, think about the Lexus or infinity commercials. When they first 236 00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:30.639 hit. They were really unique and like people tuned in just because the delivery 237 00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:33.639 method was really unique. That's great. Yeah, I think there's so many 238 00:16:33.639 --> 00:16:36.919 ways that we can kind of look at that and I agree with you that 239 00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:41.639 I think sometimes looking outside of our own bubble is so valuable and I think 240 00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:45.679 that's a great idea. We talk a lot about it on the show. 241 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:49.759 Schools are really struggling today that make the same at spend work. CPMS are 242 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:55.279 up eighty nine year over a year. On facebook and instagram. Our College 243 00:16:55.279 --> 00:16:59.799 clients are no longer looking for rented audiences. They're looking for an own community 244 00:16:59.799 --> 00:17:03.000 where they can engage students even before they apply. This is why Zemi has 245 00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:07.400 become so crucial for our clients, with over one million students, close to 246 00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:12.039 ten thou five star ratings, consistently ranked as one of the top social lapps 247 00:17:12.440 --> 00:17:17.720 and recently one of Apple's hot APPs of the week. There simply isn't anything 248 00:17:17.720 --> 00:17:21.039 out there like it, and we have seen it all. Zemy not only 249 00:17:21.079 --> 00:17:25.240 provides the best space for student engagement, but the most unique and action Wal 250 00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:30.759 data for the one sixty college and university partners. We know firsthand from our 251 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:34.000 clients that Zem me is a must have strategy for Gen z check them out 252 00:17:34.039 --> 00:17:41.240 now at colleges dot Zem dot com. That's colleges dot Z E M E 253 00:17:41.519 --> 00:17:47.480 dot Com. And yes, tell him Barton Troy sent you. If you 254 00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:52.680 have a conversation with Chris, his overall value that he will bring to that 255 00:17:52.799 --> 00:18:00.519 conversation is convincing marketers that they should speak and think more strategically instead of tactically. 256 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:03.759 I think you summed it up in a nutshell. I mean, you 257 00:18:03.799 --> 00:18:07.599 know, Troy, you should print t shirts and just like like that's say, 258 00:18:07.759 --> 00:18:11.160 just that right, and I will say I um, I will say 259 00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:17.839 I learned this lesson from experience. So I have been in the tactical I 260 00:18:17.839 --> 00:18:21.839 had been in the tactical camp for many years and over the course of my 261 00:18:21.880 --> 00:18:25.240 career I figured out why the strategic camp is more power for one and how 262 00:18:25.240 --> 00:18:27.359 to get there. But but here's what I mean. I think that we 263 00:18:27.759 --> 00:18:33.880 in communications do so much good work and I see communications, and I think 264 00:18:33.880 --> 00:18:38.920 other people probably do too, as a business function, not necessarily a service 265 00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:44.559 function, and I don't mean business in the big B like we're here to 266 00:18:44.599 --> 00:18:48.279 make the money. I mean like we're here to help drive an organization forward, 267 00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:52.680 and we will always have a service capacity in that. You know, 268 00:18:52.920 --> 00:18:56.200 if something comes up that's immediate, which it always does in our field, 269 00:18:56.480 --> 00:19:00.559 we jump on that thing, whether it's an opportunity or a lunge. But 270 00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:04.160 a lot of times what happens I think for communicators across the board, not 271 00:19:04.279 --> 00:19:10.799 just an education, is that we think about ourselves in this tactical sense. 272 00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:15.079 So somebody says to us, you know, here's a prime example. You 273 00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:17.920 know, a communicator might say, I want to get us in the New 274 00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:22.160 York Times and you know, leadership might say, well, that sounds great. 275 00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:26.759 You know why? And some communicators, and used to be me, 276 00:19:26.319 --> 00:19:30.319 would say well, because it's The New York Times, it's a really important 277 00:19:30.680 --> 00:19:33.400 media outlet, and that is a true statement. But that is a totally 278 00:19:33.480 --> 00:19:38.759 tactical way of working at it and the people that are outside communications like they 279 00:19:38.799 --> 00:19:42.880 don't think tactically and they don't understand things the way we understand them. You 280 00:19:42.880 --> 00:19:47.119 know, it's it's the same thing as if I set to somebody in leadership. 281 00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:52.599 You know, we got five thousand impressions on this particular ad that inside 282 00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:56.880 a communications meeting. That has value. But like if I'm going to go 283 00:19:56.960 --> 00:20:00.160 talk to someone in leadership or someone in another part of the organization, what 284 00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:04.240 they want to know is, number one, how our work relates to the 285 00:20:04.279 --> 00:20:10.680 strategic goals or the strategic plan for the organization. And too, they want 286 00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:15.960 to know the impact that it had not the reach, the impact, you 287 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:19.640 know, impressions is reached, people taking action is impact. And so to 288 00:20:19.759 --> 00:20:26.079 me, I think in communications, in marketing, it's really important that we 289 00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:32.799 we present ourselves in a way that is strategic and linked to the overall goals 290 00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:37.039 of the organization. And I think that's especially true in engineering, you know, 291 00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:41.240 just like it is if you work at a pharmaceutical company or you work 292 00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:44.960 at a telecom company, you know Um or you work, you work in 293 00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:51.519 healthcare and education, education, healthcare, those people that work in those disciplines 294 00:20:51.720 --> 00:20:56.319 are process oriented thinkers, right, you know, linear, process oriented thinkers. 295 00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:00.799 Communicators, for the most part, are pecular thinkers, and there's nothing 296 00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:04.039 wrong with that. It takes both to like drive the world forward. But 297 00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:11.200 you can't communicate the work you're doing this way to an audience that thinks this 298 00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:15.680 way. So you've got to find ways to make your work, to describe 299 00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:19.079 your work, excuse me, in a way that is linear and process Orient 300 00:21:19.160 --> 00:21:25.000 and has links back to bigger tent poles and just we're putting up a twitter 301 00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:30.640 post. Sorry, I totally wanted to sell box. No, that's exactly 302 00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:33.359 I mean. That's that's so important because I, you know, I see 303 00:21:33.400 --> 00:21:38.640 so many times, and I think that Um agencies that support higher education are 304 00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:42.640 guilty of this as well, where I'll see reports from different Um, you 305 00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:47.519 know it's a digital agency or whatever, and they so focused on the you 306 00:21:47.559 --> 00:21:51.319 know, the clicks or the or the you know, impressions or all the 307 00:21:51.359 --> 00:21:52.920 other things, the things you just talked about. But at the end of 308 00:21:52.920 --> 00:21:56.519 the day, I think that, you know, as Higher Ed marketers, 309 00:21:56.559 --> 00:22:00.240 we owe it to ourselves to go to that level of strategy and the strategic 310 00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:04.839 level of thinking and say, how did we move the needle today? And, 311 00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:07.440 like you said, it's like, you know, what is the impact 312 00:22:07.599 --> 00:22:11.960 rather than what's that you know, impression and Um you know, the more 313 00:22:11.960 --> 00:22:15.400 people we have on a school visit or the more people that we have that 314 00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:21.200 have actually taken the called action of applying or, you know, we requesting 315 00:22:21.240 --> 00:22:26.319 more information or depositing or whatever metric we want to use. We've got to 316 00:22:26.359 --> 00:22:30.279 be able to measure that impact and tie that directly back to the tactics that 317 00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:33.759 we did and I think that when we can do that, that's when strategy 318 00:22:33.799 --> 00:22:37.599 starts to happen and when we can be strategic because, you know, we 319 00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:41.279 can spend all day long. You know what I call moving the deck chairs 320 00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:42.799 on the titanic, and it's just like, you know, we have these 321 00:22:42.839 --> 00:22:45.839 impressions, we have this and you know, Oh, isn't it great, 322 00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:48.799 but at the end of the day, if we don't have students showing up 323 00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:55.720 and, you know, and and and moving the the mission of the school 324 00:22:55.759 --> 00:23:00.119 forward, we're just we're just, we're just messing around and we're just doing 325 00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:03.359 a lot of busy work. Yeah, there's a good there's a quit good 326 00:23:03.400 --> 00:23:06.240 test that, you know, I would encourage people to use and I'm sure 327 00:23:06.279 --> 00:23:07.640 there's a lot of the audience that's already using it. You know, when 328 00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:12.440 you're thinking about doing something, whatever this something is, it's easy to ask 329 00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:18.079 yourself what you're doing and it's easy to let me rephrase that. It is 330 00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:22.920 often easier to ask yourself what, but step back and say why. Why 331 00:23:23.079 --> 00:23:27.200 is the relevant question. Are we doing this to drive the strategic plan forward? 332 00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:32.200 Are we doing this because it links to some other higher initiative that we're 333 00:23:32.200 --> 00:23:36.119 trying to launch? Like make sure you've got a good answer to the why, 334 00:23:36.160 --> 00:23:40.319 not only for yourself so that you know what you're doing, but so 335 00:23:40.359 --> 00:23:42.519 that you can explain it to other people in a way that makes sense to 336 00:23:42.559 --> 00:23:47.240 them. Now I love that idea. I love that start with. Why? 337 00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:51.640 I think that's a great way to go with that. There's a book 338 00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:56.759 with the title plane to win that Chris is a big believer in and recommends 339 00:23:56.799 --> 00:24:00.359 to marketers that he speaks to Chris. What is it about this book that 340 00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:06.960 makes it so impactful? So I was first introduced to this book several years 341 00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:11.759 ago when I worked for Nova designs, which is a global biotech company, 342 00:24:11.799 --> 00:24:18.000 and the book basically, at its most foundational level, is about corporate strategy. 343 00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:21.799 But really what the book is about, at least to me as reading 344 00:24:21.799 --> 00:24:26.160 it as a communications person, is how do you think and communicate in a 345 00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:32.559 strategic way? So, as an example, you know most people, let 346 00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:37.000 me rephrase that, there are, there's there's an opportunity in communications when you're 347 00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:40.839 putting together a new initiative, like to think about you know your goal, 348 00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:45.119 okay, you know here's the goal, you know here's the objectives. Great, 349 00:24:45.720 --> 00:24:49.640 but what this book, I think, really forces you to think about 350 00:24:49.720 --> 00:24:52.599 is like, can you think one level up? So, in other words, 351 00:24:52.599 --> 00:24:56.920 what's the ambition? The goally ambition are different, right. The goal 352 00:24:57.000 --> 00:25:00.480 is what you want to get done with the particular effort that you're undertaking. 353 00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:06.400 The ambition is like if everything went to plan, if you had all the 354 00:25:06.440 --> 00:25:10.640 people, all the resources, all the time that you needed, what would 355 00:25:10.640 --> 00:25:14.640 the outcome look like? And the reason it's important to map that out is 356 00:25:14.680 --> 00:25:21.960 because it really makes you think about ultimately what you're driving for, because ultimately 357 00:25:22.240 --> 00:25:26.720 you're not necessarily just driving for that goal. You're driving to move the needle 358 00:25:26.799 --> 00:25:30.119 in some bigger way, like we've just been talking about. And and I 359 00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:36.079 think what the book forces you to think about is, how do I get 360 00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:40.839 into that mindset and then how do I communicate in that mindset, you know, 361 00:25:40.920 --> 00:25:44.759 and it's a really interesting read. Um, so I would encourage folks. 362 00:25:44.759 --> 00:25:47.160 You know, I know that we don't all have a lot of free 363 00:25:47.200 --> 00:25:51.079 time, but you know, if if you have downtime and books on like 364 00:25:51.160 --> 00:25:55.079 corporate strategy like that are interesting for you, check it out. There's a 365 00:25:55.119 --> 00:26:00.319 process that it talks through about how to think in a in a strategy Egypt, 366 00:26:00.359 --> 00:26:03.759 way from like big too much more focused, and there's a way that 367 00:26:03.880 --> 00:26:08.039 I found to adapt it for communications that works really well and I'm sure other 368 00:26:08.039 --> 00:26:11.440 people will be able to do the same, but it is. It is 369 00:26:11.480 --> 00:26:15.279 really good in helping to train people to think in the ways we've been talking 370 00:26:15.279 --> 00:26:18.799 about for the last couple of minutes. there. That's great. I think 371 00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:23.039 that resources like that Um that. I think that you know that. That 372 00:26:23.079 --> 00:26:26.119 book, I think, is a great way kind of moving yourself up on 373 00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:30.160 the ambition. But then also, like we talked earlier about, you know, 374 00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:33.279 the pitch and other looking for those places outside of what we do every 375 00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:37.119 day to kind of challenge us to move, move up the ladder for strategy. 376 00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:40.799 I think is is so critical. So that's that's great, good, 377 00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:44.240 good, and and there's an I mean there's another relevant example on that. 378 00:26:44.279 --> 00:26:47.160 You know. Okay, so a lot of times when let me again rephrase 379 00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:49.200 that. Sometimes I don't want to say I don't I don't want to overgeneralize. 380 00:26:49.640 --> 00:26:53.799 Sometimes we in communications have this tendency that we think about, you know, 381 00:26:53.920 --> 00:26:59.519 okay, here's our strategy, you know, here's the audience and then 382 00:26:59.519 --> 00:27:02.319 here the pctics we're under deploy. You know, first of all those should 383 00:27:02.359 --> 00:27:06.319 really be flipped. The audience should dictate the strategy. But the second thing 384 00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:10.759 is that sometimes we get in this this mode where we go like regardless of 385 00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:12.759 the different audience segments, we're going to run the same strategy and the same 386 00:27:12.759 --> 00:27:15.799 tactics and like that. Again, that's not a strategic way of looking at 387 00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:18.680 it. So you've got to say to your stuff, okay, for for 388 00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:22.240 this particular effort, whatever the effort is, there's three distinct audiences. If 389 00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:26.519 there are three distinct audiences, we need to have three distinct strategies and three 390 00:27:26.519 --> 00:27:32.519 distinct lines of tactics, three sets of deliberals, three sets of measures. 391 00:27:32.519 --> 00:27:33.519 That, like, that's the only way, you know, you really move 392 00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:41.039 the needle, and it's it's more granular than I think sometimes we force ourselves 393 00:27:41.079 --> 00:27:45.759 to go. But you know, to to Bart's point earlier about like impact, 394 00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:52.160 it's the only way to really make impact is to align the very particular 395 00:27:52.200 --> 00:27:56.759 things with the very particular audience. So it just again, it goes back 396 00:27:56.799 --> 00:27:59.519 to the idea from the book and it goes back to the thing we talked 397 00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:03.640 about early. You're about being strategic versus tactical. The more you can force 398 00:28:03.680 --> 00:28:07.640 yourself to be granular and linear and link back to big things, the more 399 00:28:07.880 --> 00:28:15.880 detailed and well thought your strategy will go. Chris, we end every episode 400 00:28:15.880 --> 00:28:19.240 by asking this question to our guest. If there's a piece of advice or 401 00:28:19.759 --> 00:28:26.759 an idea that you could share with marketers that would have immediate impact for their 402 00:28:26.839 --> 00:28:32.240 career or life or their processes, what would that be? Can I share 403 00:28:32.240 --> 00:28:37.839 it too? Absolutely all right. Um, one would be and I am 404 00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:41.839 sure there are plenty of really, really good folks out there doing this already, 405 00:28:41.880 --> 00:28:45.319 but it's just, I think, a good reminder. Do everything you 406 00:28:45.400 --> 00:28:51.519 can to put your team's Co workers, student workers, all of it, 407 00:28:52.240 --> 00:28:56.279 in a position where they've got good work life balance, where they feel valued, 408 00:28:56.119 --> 00:29:00.279 Um, where they have room to do what it is that they do 409 00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:04.480 best. You know, I I there are plenty of things that I think 410 00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:07.400 I do well as a as a leader. There's plenty of things that I 411 00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:11.079 know I need to work on as a leader, but I think one of 412 00:29:11.079 --> 00:29:12.839 the things that I try to do is like just get out of my people's 413 00:29:12.839 --> 00:29:17.640 way, like removal roadblocks, and like let them do what they're good at 414 00:29:17.640 --> 00:29:22.119 doing, and I would just encourage everybody as much as you can do that. 415 00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:26.119 It just you know, you've got great people, let him work. 416 00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:32.400 Second, much more tactically, keep a folder on your desk of great ideas. 417 00:29:33.240 --> 00:29:34.680 You know it can be things that you pull out of a magazine. 418 00:29:36.200 --> 00:29:40.799 It can be I mean my my wife and I were at this restaurant in 419 00:29:40.799 --> 00:29:44.000 New York and they had this coaster that I thought, from a design perspective, 420 00:29:44.079 --> 00:29:45.640 is really cool. I took the coaster. You know, they looked 421 00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:51.319 at me a little nuts when I told them. You know, Um, 422 00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:53.400 it can be things that you see online and pronout. It can be photos 423 00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:59.319 you take and just pronount. But like have a a physical not not a 424 00:29:59.359 --> 00:30:06.240 computer. I've like have a physical idea folder and anytime you're thinking, you 425 00:30:06.279 --> 00:30:11.799 know, let me rephrase that, once once every regular interval, whatever that 426 00:30:11.880 --> 00:30:14.519 is for you, once every two weeks or whatever, once a month, 427 00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:18.160 go in there and thumb through it. Invariably you will see something that will 428 00:30:18.200 --> 00:30:22.400 spur a thought. It may not work for you at that particular time. 429 00:30:22.519 --> 00:30:23.759 You made his bookmark it going. I'm going to come back to that, 430 00:30:23.839 --> 00:30:30.000 but it is the best way I have found to like very practically, going 431 00:30:30.039 --> 00:30:34.039 back to the beginning of our conversation, find things that help set you apart. 432 00:30:34.400 --> 00:30:37.519 It's easy to like say that get lost, but if you make it 433 00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:42.359 really practical and really easy, it can actually be kind of a fun journey. 434 00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:47.839 That's great, Chris. I have to tell you that you brought that 435 00:30:47.920 --> 00:30:52.039 up in our pre interview and everybody can't see it because we aren't on video, 436 00:30:52.440 --> 00:30:55.839 but I have. I have created my idea folder and I've already started 437 00:30:55.839 --> 00:30:59.559 putting things in it this past week. So thanks for that real practical to 438 00:30:59.599 --> 00:31:03.839 do it, Chris. For any of our listeners that would like to reach 439 00:31:03.880 --> 00:31:07.000 out to you, what would be the best way for them to do that? 440 00:31:07.960 --> 00:31:11.480 You are welcome to email me. My email is C S Bender B 441 00:31:11.640 --> 00:31:15.519 E N D E R at U, M D dot e D U, 442 00:31:17.200 --> 00:31:18.799 or you can hit me up on Linkedin. Either one of those works. 443 00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:23.880 Thank you, Chris. You are so fun to talk to and to listen 444 00:31:23.960 --> 00:31:30.039 to, and thank you for sharing the impactful wisdom that you did. By 445 00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:33.440 all means. I really appreciate the opportunity to chat with everybody and I'm gonna 446 00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:40.200 go check on my house plan. Bart, what are your final thoughts? 447 00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:45.200 I just wanna again thank Chris for being on the show today. I think 448 00:31:45.240 --> 00:31:49.079 he's just brought a wealth of experience and knowledge to the to the PODCAST, 449 00:31:49.119 --> 00:31:52.160 and I'm grateful for that. This is one of those episodes that we didn't 450 00:31:52.200 --> 00:31:56.519 necessarily get into tactics of hey, here's six of the ways that you can 451 00:31:56.559 --> 00:32:00.759 do social media better, or here's, you know, nine ways to better 452 00:32:00.799 --> 00:32:04.799 do your messaging. Those are tactics and I think those have places and a 453 00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:07.240 lot of our episodes have that. But one of the things I think that 454 00:32:07.279 --> 00:32:09.599 this episode particularly did that I that I really value, and I've I've had 455 00:32:09.640 --> 00:32:13.920 that from other guests as well, is is taking us to that next level 456 00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:16.440 up of of the why, and I think that Chris made some really good 457 00:32:16.480 --> 00:32:21.799 points about, you know, really starting with that why and and even even 458 00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:23.920 to the point of, you know, why do we do this podcast? 459 00:32:23.960 --> 00:32:27.799 What? Why are we doing what we're doing? It's it's to really impact 460 00:32:28.200 --> 00:32:31.279 hired marketers and and everyone who's listening, to to do our job better, 461 00:32:31.759 --> 00:32:37.440 to Um, have a greater voice at the table. Um. You know, 462 00:32:37.519 --> 00:32:38.680 we've talked to a lot of different people, whether it's, you know, 463 00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:44.319 Ethan Braden at purdue or Jamie Hunt at at Miami, these different chief 464 00:32:44.319 --> 00:32:50.039 marketing officers, and how quickly they say how important it is for for marketers 465 00:32:50.079 --> 00:32:52.480 to have a voice at the table and to really be able to represent that 466 00:32:52.559 --> 00:33:00.839 well and and be able to help everyone understand that that what we do does 467 00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:05.519 move business forward, as as Chris kind of illustrated in there. So I 468 00:33:05.559 --> 00:33:08.319 think that's really important and it's also very important, as we really become more 469 00:33:08.319 --> 00:33:15.000 strategic, that we show how our work has strategic impact rather than just, 470 00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:17.240 you know, sometimes we get kind of UH. I always we've always talked 471 00:33:17.240 --> 00:33:21.559 about it before and my company is, you know, we like to wear 472 00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:23.160 the Beret sometimes and it's like, okay, you know, it's it's fun 473 00:33:23.160 --> 00:33:28.200 to wear the Beret and when the when the art awards and the design awards, 474 00:33:28.200 --> 00:33:30.480 but at the end of the day, are we impacting the bottom line 475 00:33:30.519 --> 00:33:36.160 of our institutions and are we really moving forward what the institution is all about? 476 00:33:36.200 --> 00:33:38.240 And I really think that was some great things that that Chris brought up 477 00:33:38.599 --> 00:33:42.960 and I really love the idea of of really kind of moving beyond just our 478 00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:45.079 goals and and looking at ambition. You know what what is at the end 479 00:33:45.079 --> 00:33:47.920 of the day that when we put our heads on our pillows at night, 480 00:33:49.319 --> 00:33:51.279 what are we most proud of that we can say, you know what, 481 00:33:51.599 --> 00:33:54.880 this really happened and this was something that that my team was able to do 482 00:33:55.000 --> 00:33:59.200 and and make a big, big impact, and not only the lives of 483 00:33:59.200 --> 00:34:01.279 our institution, it in the lives of the students that we serve. So, 484 00:34:01.480 --> 00:34:06.160 Chris, thanks again for for bringing your wisdom to the show and you're 485 00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:08.480 welcome back anytime. Thank you very much. I hope everyone's you know, 486 00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:13.000 learn something and I'm looking forward to learning from your other guests and your audience 487 00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:19.239 as well. Great thanks. The Higher End Marketer podcast is brought to you 488 00:34:19.280 --> 00:34:23.920 by Kaylor solutions and education, marketing and branding agency and by Think, patented, 489 00:34:24.239 --> 00:34:30.480 a Marketing Execution Company combining print and digital assets for higher impact within your 490 00:34:30.480 --> 00:34:35.800 communications. On behalf of Bark Kaylor, I'm troy singer. Thank you for 491 00:34:35.920 --> 00:34:42.760 joining us. You've been listening to the Higher Ed Marketer. To ensure that 492 00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:45.840 you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. 493 00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:50.920 If you're listening with apple PODCASTS, we'd love for you to leave a 494 00:34:51.000 --> 00:34:53.400 quick rating of the show. Simply tap the number of stars do you think 495 00:34:53.440 --> 00:35:00.480 the podcast deserves. UNTIL NEXT TIME, all L