The 5 Steps of Storytelling at Notre Dame w/ Jim Small

WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.879 --> 00:00:07.190 You are listening to the Higher Ed Marketer, a podcast geared towards marketing professionals 2 00:00:07.230 --> 00:00:11.910 in higher education. This show will tackle all sorts of questions related to student 3 00:00:11.949 --> 00:00:16.070 recruitment, don't a relations, marketing, trends, new technologies and so much 4 00:00:16.070 --> 00:00:20.230 more. If you are looking for conversations centered around where the industry is going, 5 00:00:20.750 --> 00:00:29.300 this podcast is from you. Let's get into the show. Welcome to 6 00:00:29.339 --> 00:00:32.939 the hired marketer podcast. My name is troy singer and, as always, 7 00:00:32.979 --> 00:00:37.049 I'm here with my partnering creation, Bart Taylor, where each week we both 8 00:00:37.250 --> 00:00:41.210 interview hired marketers that we admire that we feel others in the community can benefit 9 00:00:41.289 --> 00:00:46.649 from. This week we had the pleasure of interviewing the associate VP of storytelling 10 00:00:46.689 --> 00:00:51.000 and engagement for the University Notre Dame, Jim Small, and if you know 11 00:00:51.119 --> 00:00:55.960 anything about Jim, you know that he is known for his energetic and impactful 12 00:00:56.000 --> 00:01:00.159 storytelling. Yeah, it's been a great interview and I'm really excited to share 13 00:01:00.200 --> 00:01:03.600 this with everyone. I think that he really has you know, a storytelling 14 00:01:03.679 --> 00:01:06.430 is one of those things, troy, that I think that people think they 15 00:01:06.430 --> 00:01:08.829 understand and they and they know it when they feel it and they see it, 16 00:01:10.390 --> 00:01:11.510 but sometimes it's like, well, what does that mean and how do 17 00:01:11.549 --> 00:01:15.469 you do that? And I think Jim has kind of a really creative process 18 00:01:15.590 --> 00:01:21.019 and he's actually, you know, he's organized how he tells stories into five 19 00:01:21.099 --> 00:01:25.219 bullet points. I really like his methodology and the way that he just is 20 00:01:25.260 --> 00:01:27.739 very logical in his thinking, and so I think you're going to walk away 21 00:01:27.739 --> 00:01:32.930 with a really a lot of practical things that you can apply no matter how 22 00:01:32.969 --> 00:01:34.569 big a school you are. Don't don't be intimidated at that. We're talking 23 00:01:34.569 --> 00:01:38.530 to the University of Notre Dame. There's a lot of really practical things here, 24 00:01:38.569 --> 00:01:41.049 and be sure to stick around to the very end because there's a goodie 25 00:01:41.090 --> 00:01:44.450 that Jim offers everybody that you want to hear about. Well said, Bart. 26 00:01:44.769 --> 00:01:49.200 Without further ado, let's bring in Jim. We like to welcome Jim 27 00:01:49.359 --> 00:01:55.359 Small, Associate Vice President of storytelling and engagement at Notre Dame, to the 28 00:01:55.400 --> 00:02:00.760 Higher Ed Marker podcast. Hello, Jim, I don't try doing wonderful and 29 00:02:00.959 --> 00:02:05.150 we are really happy that you can join us here on the podcast. In 30 00:02:05.269 --> 00:02:09.789 a previous conversation, both Bart and I were just really impressed with both your 31 00:02:09.830 --> 00:02:16.460 background and how utilize storytelling. Well, you know it's it's way overrated from 32 00:02:16.500 --> 00:02:21.500 my perspective here internally. But I want to thank you too for having Notre 33 00:02:21.500 --> 00:02:23.819 Dame joined this conversation. So thank you for that. Very Good Bart. 34 00:02:24.139 --> 00:02:28.180 Yeah, JEM I really appreciate I know you and I've met a couple times. 35 00:02:28.219 --> 00:02:30.889 It's a different conferences here in Indiana and had a chance to get to 36 00:02:30.969 --> 00:02:32.250 know each other a little bit better. But I think one of the things 37 00:02:32.289 --> 00:02:36.530 that I really wanted to talk about, and I think you said, you 38 00:02:36.610 --> 00:02:40.330 know, sometimes it's overrated, sometimes it's not. It's misunderstood just what storytelling 39 00:02:40.449 --> 00:02:44.680 is and what the importance is. And so maybe just tell us a little 40 00:02:44.680 --> 00:02:49.879 bit about, you know, where, how you're leveraging storytelling at the University 41 00:02:49.879 --> 00:02:53.759 of Notre Dame and and kind of how you got into storytelling, because it's 42 00:02:53.800 --> 00:02:55.680 not I mean it's something that's been around for Eons, but I think some 43 00:02:55.879 --> 00:03:00.349 it's kind of been the marketing buzzword in the last five ten years. Well, 44 00:03:00.389 --> 00:03:04.469 I'M gonna go back to being thirteen years old and the state of Michigan 45 00:03:04.509 --> 00:03:07.069 and working at a golf course and I met a guy named Bob Kane to 46 00:03:07.110 --> 00:03:10.669 work for Golf magazine and what I saw as a thirteen year old was a 47 00:03:10.669 --> 00:03:14.860 guy that came in once a week with clients and he played golf for a 48 00:03:14.939 --> 00:03:16.900 living. That's what I saw. So I decided right then and there I 49 00:03:16.939 --> 00:03:20.219 wanted to be the publisher of Golf Magazine. So let's let me on a 50 00:03:20.699 --> 00:03:23.460 path to become a publisher, if you will. And and I went off 51 00:03:23.500 --> 00:03:25.979 to college. I put a little basketball, but I I really have an 52 00:03:25.979 --> 00:03:30.729 advertising degree of from school called Fair State University and big rapids Michigan, and 53 00:03:30.169 --> 00:03:35.090 there I started my first publication when I was a junior in college and that 54 00:03:35.289 --> 00:03:38.210 progressed to where I got my first interview after graduating. I got hired of 55 00:03:38.250 --> 00:03:42.520 the Publishing Company and was there for a couple years. I got hired another 56 00:03:42.560 --> 00:03:45.479 publishing company that I have my big break, where I was on my way 57 00:03:45.599 --> 00:03:49.439 to, I believe, working for time ink on People magazine, when I 58 00:03:49.560 --> 00:03:53.479 was intercepted by a big Ad Agency and Detroit called Campbelly Wald and they were 59 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:55.710 starting a storytelling division which no one knew about the time. I end up 60 00:03:55.710 --> 00:03:59.990 taking that job instead and as probably the best decision ever made my life, 61 00:03:59.990 --> 00:04:02.469 because I end up working with a lot of huge brands and helping them tell 62 00:04:02.469 --> 00:04:08.030 their story and it just led to a career for me of convincing people wasn't 63 00:04:08.069 --> 00:04:10.939 their marketing or wasn't their advertising. That was the challenge. It was their 64 00:04:11.060 --> 00:04:15.500 story and we were less company. I was involved before Notre Dames Company called 65 00:04:15.780 --> 00:04:18.420 story worldwide that I created with three other guys and we became the world's large 66 00:04:18.420 --> 00:04:23.860 storytellers and we were the first guys and Medicine Avenue to tell people it's not 67 00:04:23.980 --> 00:04:26.290 your advertise, do your market and your story. They look as kind of 68 00:04:26.370 --> 00:04:29.089 cross I'd for a long time, but now all you see is I'm going 69 00:04:29.129 --> 00:04:30.209 to talk about their story, their story of the story. So we were 70 00:04:30.250 --> 00:04:33.089 kind of the pioneers of that, if you will. We're the first guys 71 00:04:33.250 --> 00:04:38.600 on the street in New York preaching this and it's worked out well and I've 72 00:04:38.639 --> 00:04:41.879 been at Notre Dame three thousand, four hundred and seventy nine days. I 73 00:04:41.920 --> 00:04:44.959 keep track of that. So this is day three four undred and seventy nine 74 00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:48.600 and they kept melong for a nice ride and spend a wonderful experience telling stories 75 00:04:48.639 --> 00:04:51.910 here. That's great and I obviously, I'm sure you were in this in 76 00:04:51.990 --> 00:04:56.790 the storytelling business before the all the different channels of storytelling came about. You 77 00:04:56.870 --> 00:05:00.069 know, now people are constantly talking about tell your story through video, tell 78 00:05:00.069 --> 00:05:02.589 your story through social media, all these different ways. Tell us a little 79 00:05:02.589 --> 00:05:05.829 bit about how you're utilizing storytelling. I know you told a story earlier about 80 00:05:05.870 --> 00:05:10.259 the story boards at a at a high down or tailgating event, that that's 81 00:05:10.259 --> 00:05:13.660 one way. Maybe just kind of walk us through that and maybe some of 82 00:05:13.699 --> 00:05:16.819 the other ways that that those listening might be, you know, inspired to 83 00:05:17.060 --> 00:05:20.019 get their story out through different ways. Sure, I think. I think 84 00:05:20.019 --> 00:05:24.129 the best way to start made answer that question is probably to walk it through 85 00:05:24.129 --> 00:05:27.329 our process and how we tell stories. And we started this back in New 86 00:05:27.329 --> 00:05:30.850 York and there's a five steps and I'm not very smart, so I make 87 00:05:30.889 --> 00:05:32.850 things very simple. I work with people much smarter than me, which is 88 00:05:32.889 --> 00:05:36.160 great. But the first step always is audience. We want to know who 89 00:05:36.199 --> 00:05:40.160 we're going to be engaging and I want to know everything I can about them. 90 00:05:40.199 --> 00:05:44.759 So our team's taught to learn stuff. One is first question. You 91 00:05:44.879 --> 00:05:46.439 ask WHO's the audience? Who am I engaging and learn everything we can. 92 00:05:46.720 --> 00:05:49.430 The second step, and it's probably the most important step, and so what 93 00:05:49.589 --> 00:05:54.629 we call walkaways, and this is what we want people to think, feel 94 00:05:55.029 --> 00:05:58.149 do. Think, feel, do, and this is if I ever write 95 00:05:58.149 --> 00:06:00.310 a book on marketing some day or storytelling, it'll be called think, feel 96 00:06:00.389 --> 00:06:03.189 do, because that's what a market, our storyteller does. Their job is 97 00:06:03.269 --> 00:06:06.860 to make you think something or feel something, to drive you to do something. 98 00:06:06.980 --> 00:06:12.699 So we upfront establish what it is we want someone to think or feel 99 00:06:12.740 --> 00:06:15.139 because typically Notre Dame, our job is to is to try to convince someone 100 00:06:15.180 --> 00:06:18.490 that Notre names worthy of their gift. So that's that gift, you know, 101 00:06:18.529 --> 00:06:21.850 the giving part. So we have to learn how to what people we 102 00:06:21.970 --> 00:06:24.889 need to think, what they need to feel. So we write that down 103 00:06:24.930 --> 00:06:28.050 and that helps us drive everything else. That's step to. Step three is 104 00:06:28.129 --> 00:06:30.250 channels. I want to know before we get started, what are the ways 105 00:06:30.290 --> 00:06:34.199 we're going to deliver that story. Is it an email? Is it an 106 00:06:34.279 --> 00:06:36.839 event? We even did a play once where we used to play to tell 107 00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:41.079 a story. Is it a video? Is it a film? Just list 108 00:06:41.199 --> 00:06:44.079 all those channels that we're going to use to reach out audience. Then the 109 00:06:44.279 --> 00:06:46.149 last the fourth part, is what we call what great looks like. I 110 00:06:46.230 --> 00:06:49.069 want to know off front again, what what what a success? How do 111 00:06:49.110 --> 00:06:51.870 we define that? Is it we need to raise a hundred dollars as or 112 00:06:53.149 --> 00:06:55.829 we need to raise a billion dollars? What is that? Write that down 113 00:06:56.230 --> 00:06:59.709 and then the last step is when we start thinking about the stories we need 114 00:06:59.790 --> 00:07:02.620 to tell. So the beauty of this process is I know who the audience 115 00:07:02.779 --> 00:07:05.259 is. I know what my job is as a storyteller. I need someone 116 00:07:05.300 --> 00:07:08.740 to think this or feel that to get them to do that. I know 117 00:07:08.860 --> 00:07:11.100 we're going to put it in these channels and I know I need to do 118 00:07:11.500 --> 00:07:15.019 us and then I start putting on the story. So you know, when 119 00:07:15.060 --> 00:07:17.610 we're last met, we talked about will probably is my big break and I 120 00:07:17.649 --> 00:07:21.050 think it was Dayli I don't know, probably day two hundred and eleven for 121 00:07:21.170 --> 00:07:25.689 me or something at Notre Dame, where a gentleman comes down, kyle the 122 00:07:25.730 --> 00:07:28.970 goodbye and he works our plan giving area and he says to me, Jimmy 123 00:07:29.009 --> 00:07:31.720 Goes, we've got an event coming up and it's on a Saturday of nording 124 00:07:31.720 --> 00:07:35.240 football game, nor dame versus Michigan, and we're going to have a number 125 00:07:35.240 --> 00:07:38.680 of people room swift. The first thing I question ask is, okay, 126 00:07:38.680 --> 00:07:41.839 who's the audience? He goes, well, they're older people, sixty to 127 00:07:42.040 --> 00:07:44.160 eighty years of age, and I said, will tell me more about because 128 00:07:44.160 --> 00:07:46.990 well, they love Notre Dame and they've they've been successful in life enough so 129 00:07:46.149 --> 00:07:49.509 that we think they could leave Notre Dame a gift in your estate. So 130 00:07:49.910 --> 00:07:53.790 he tells me all about the audience. A great step to I said, 131 00:07:53.870 --> 00:07:55.829 what's the walk away? What do you want them to think feel doing? 132 00:07:55.870 --> 00:07:58.269 Because well, obviously do is the write this to put us in there and 133 00:07:58.509 --> 00:08:01.019 state. So then we center on what is the thinker feel? So I 134 00:08:01.100 --> 00:08:03.620 wrote a bunch of things on a whiteboard that I thought might that they might 135 00:08:03.699 --> 00:08:07.060 want to think or feel, and we centered on one thought, and the 136 00:08:07.139 --> 00:08:11.579 think was we could do this to for Notre Dame. That was the job. 137 00:08:11.660 --> 00:08:13.649 So I wrote down we could do this too, for Thurda. Again 138 00:08:13.769 --> 00:08:16.889 walking through this process. So I'm through step two, step three, channels. 139 00:08:16.930 --> 00:08:18.649 He told me they're going to be in a big room and it was 140 00:08:18.649 --> 00:08:20.689 all mix, the mingle event, which I kind of hate because I don't 141 00:08:20.689 --> 00:08:24.209 like walking in the rooms where people I don't know very well. I've got 142 00:08:24.290 --> 00:08:26.199 to have small talk with him and talk with him, so I try to 143 00:08:26.240 --> 00:08:30.120 get people in out. So I like to put things on the outside of 144 00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:31.639 the room, and let's put stories on boards on the outside of the room 145 00:08:31.639 --> 00:08:35.720 where you can sort of turn your back on humanity. Don't to worry about 146 00:08:35.720 --> 00:08:37.279 this so much. So he goes, you know, I think I like 147 00:08:37.399 --> 00:08:41.429 that. So that was our only channel. So we call them storyboards. 148 00:08:41.429 --> 00:08:43.350 Are here Notre Dame. Their two feet high, three feet wide, and 149 00:08:43.509 --> 00:08:46.470 so he goes, yeah, let's make storyboards. Are Channel Perfect. I 150 00:08:46.549 --> 00:08:48.750 so what does great look like? What's the success of life for you? 151 00:08:48.830 --> 00:08:52.070 He goes, well, if I can raise a million dollars in this event, 152 00:08:52.389 --> 00:08:54.789 that will be successful. So perfect. I write down a million dollars. 153 00:08:54.070 --> 00:08:58.259 So now I'm ready to think about stories. So I know that I've 154 00:08:58.259 --> 00:09:00.980 got to find five stories and that we had five boards were putting up. 155 00:09:01.220 --> 00:09:03.740 Need to find five stories that make you think we could do this too for 156 00:09:03.860 --> 00:09:07.740 Notre Dame. So here's what happens. We had crippled. One story is 157 00:09:07.740 --> 00:09:09.970 about a family who grew up in the Boston your husband and wife, and 158 00:09:11.049 --> 00:09:13.610 they had two loves in their life, the University of Notre Dame in the 159 00:09:13.690 --> 00:09:18.090 city of Boston. So they decided in their state, to set aside money 160 00:09:18.090 --> 00:09:22.049 for the University of Notre Dame to fund scholarships for students from the Boston area 161 00:09:22.090 --> 00:09:24.799 to ten the University of Notre Dame. So we simply put this story on 162 00:09:24.879 --> 00:09:26.399 a board. So it's a beautiful two foot by three foot board's got a 163 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:31.279 beautiful picture of the skyline of Boston and then it said a headline was a 164 00:09:31.559 --> 00:09:35.639 love for his hometown at Alma Monitor, and I wrote the copy. You 165 00:09:35.679 --> 00:09:39.029 know, Joe and Jane Domer had two loves in their life, the University 166 00:09:39.070 --> 00:09:41.710 of Notre Dame the city of Boston. They set aside scholarship money for students 167 00:09:41.710 --> 00:09:45.470 to tend the Boston are at through the University of Notre Dame. There are 168 00:09:45.509 --> 00:09:48.549 currently seven students on their scholarship. That's all the board said. That was 169 00:09:48.629 --> 00:09:52.549 one of the five stories. So here's what happens to Saturday morning, ninety 170 00:09:52.669 --> 00:09:54.980 ninety eighty nine people in the room, very packed. We're having a good 171 00:09:54.980 --> 00:09:58.419 time to got drinks there and they see these stories on boards. That night 172 00:09:58.460 --> 00:10:01.340 we beat Michigan and football, which is always a good thing. And then 173 00:10:01.820 --> 00:10:05.700 Monday morning, ten a clock, this gentleman that I'm colleague of mine comes 174 00:10:05.820 --> 00:10:07.570 calls me up, he says, are you in your office right now? 175 00:10:07.570 --> 00:10:09.929 I said sure, en he goes, I've got to show you something, 176 00:10:11.250 --> 00:10:13.210 and he comes down with his laptop and he sits there and he goes read 177 00:10:13.330 --> 00:10:16.370 this. So I put laptop in front of me and I go wow, 178 00:10:16.450 --> 00:10:20.090 and it said, Dear Greg, had a great time the event Saturday morning. 179 00:10:20.090 --> 00:10:22.720 There are so many people in the room we didn't get a chance to 180 00:10:22.720 --> 00:10:24.440 say hi to you, but we did see a story on a board and 181 00:10:26.120 --> 00:10:30.960 the next paragraph it made us think we could do this to for Notre Dame, 182 00:10:31.080 --> 00:10:35.200 word for word. What our walk away once next paragraph we'd like to 183 00:10:35.240 --> 00:10:37.870 set us ode a million dollars in our state from the University of Notre Dame. 184 00:10:39.029 --> 00:10:41.950 It was game over for me and it was day to eleven and it 185 00:10:41.070 --> 00:10:43.870 was the day that everyone at Notre Dame start saying yeah, maybe there was 186 00:10:43.909 --> 00:10:48.629 something to this walkaways and storytelling and so on. So we know that if 187 00:10:48.669 --> 00:10:50.419 we can get you to think a certain way or feel a certain way, 188 00:10:52.299 --> 00:10:54.580 we have a good chance of you wand to make a gift to Notre Dame. 189 00:10:54.580 --> 00:10:58.620 So that's a secret storytime. That's great. That's such a powerful conversation, 190 00:10:58.700 --> 00:11:01.500 a powerful statement and I think that the thing I like about your formula 191 00:11:01.620 --> 00:11:05.649 and the thing I really like about that story you told about the event and 192 00:11:05.809 --> 00:11:09.370 the story boards, is that you don't have to be the University of Notre 193 00:11:09.370 --> 00:11:11.490 Dame to be able to pull something off like that. I mean, I 194 00:11:11.610 --> 00:11:13.529 mean I'm sure that a lot of listeners right now are listening or like Oh, 195 00:11:13.610 --> 00:11:16.610 yeah, I'd be great to be able to have the type of football 196 00:11:16.610 --> 00:11:20.840 games that Notre Dame has and the people who come there. Well, every 197 00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:24.080 school, and I don't care how small you are, you have people who 198 00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:28.360 can make decent size gifts to you. They just need to understand how can 199 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:31.480 they do that too, or how they need to understand what is that you 200 00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:33.990 want them to do, and I think that your your process of those five 201 00:11:35.029 --> 00:11:37.269 steps is really a great way for them to do that. And as well 202 00:11:37.350 --> 00:11:41.789 as you know the storyboards, it doesn't take much more than just, you 203 00:11:41.870 --> 00:11:43.389 know, a little bit of time and it could even be a white boarder, 204 00:11:43.429 --> 00:11:46.500 could even be just couple boards that you send over to Fedex Kinko's to 205 00:11:46.539 --> 00:11:50.779 get done, and I think that there's power in that and it is a 206 00:11:50.419 --> 00:11:54.940 item that is on a lower shelf that everybody should be able to reach exactly 207 00:11:54.019 --> 00:11:58.340 right Bart, because the beauty of this for a creative person is this, 208 00:11:58.460 --> 00:12:01.610 a writer, whatever it is, up front they know what their job is. 209 00:12:01.289 --> 00:12:05.850 So my creative team, the writers, knew that their soul focus was, 210 00:12:05.169 --> 00:12:09.809 I need to create a story that makes you think. We could do 211 00:12:09.970 --> 00:12:13.210 this too for Notre Dame period. That was our job. So they knew 212 00:12:13.250 --> 00:12:16.039 when they got the assignment. They come back and we sit down and review 213 00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:20.039 what we're these stories we've created, and we're looking through the lens of what 214 00:12:20.159 --> 00:12:24.679 we got to make them think one thing and it's a better discussion versus you 215 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:26.360 see, you get something presented to you and go, I don't like that. 216 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:31.789 What doesn't tell them anything right, and that's really frustrating for a personal 217 00:12:31.870 --> 00:12:35.309 writer, design or what have you. So this is a it's a simple, 218 00:12:35.429 --> 00:12:37.309 simple process. Anybody can do it. We do it for everything. 219 00:12:37.429 --> 00:12:43.549 So when I sit and do anything, if it's a powerpoint presentation, if 220 00:12:43.590 --> 00:12:46.980 it's a speech, whatever it is, I write down before I get started 221 00:12:46.259 --> 00:12:50.139 what I want people to think or feel after they've listened to me right, 222 00:12:50.139 --> 00:12:54.460 and then it drives all of my content in that discussion. Right. I 223 00:12:54.539 --> 00:12:56.419 haven't did that today. I was going to ask you. What did you 224 00:12:56.460 --> 00:13:00.450 write down today? Today I want what I want. I want to say 225 00:13:00.529 --> 00:13:03.450 you could do this, to write. That's what I want people to think 226 00:13:03.490 --> 00:13:05.370 because, you know, you don't have to have big budgets to do this, 227 00:13:07.850 --> 00:13:11.049 you know, and so that's something that I've learned. And and I 228 00:13:11.129 --> 00:13:13.879 had a year western Michigan before I get to Notre Dame, as I was 229 00:13:13.919 --> 00:13:16.639 at story worldwide for eleven years and left my company to try something different than 230 00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:20.480 I got. I got the up to to work at Western Michigan and Western 231 00:13:20.519 --> 00:13:24.120 did not have very large budgets, but we raised a lot of money really 232 00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:28.909 fast because we started telling our story better and we found ways to to reach 233 00:13:28.990 --> 00:13:33.950 individuals and get them thinking possibly about Western Michigan. And we're doing the same 234 00:13:33.950 --> 00:13:37.350 thing in Notre Dame and it's simple. So you know, anyone that's listening 235 00:13:37.389 --> 00:13:41.309 to us now can do this. And the thing I like about it too, 236 00:13:41.389 --> 00:13:43.899 is that it applies not only to advancement and development. I mean certainly 237 00:13:43.899 --> 00:13:50.179 it's successful in raising donations, but this would apply just as quickly to enrollment. 238 00:13:50.580 --> 00:13:54.220 I mean, if you've got perspective students or perspective families that are considering 239 00:13:54.259 --> 00:13:56.809 a school. It would work just as well on internal communications if you need 240 00:13:56.850 --> 00:14:03.289 to kind of have your faculty understand and feel something that you are leading them 241 00:14:03.370 --> 00:14:05.570 to do. I mean that's the power of story and the power of emotion. 242 00:14:05.730 --> 00:14:11.279 I think that's sometimes that idea of coupling story and emotion together. I 243 00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:13.879 think too many schools kind of fall into this, this trap of what we're 244 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:18.039 just going to tell the stats and and you lose it because there's nothing that 245 00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:22.399 the story is the emotional part that moves from your head to your heart. 246 00:14:22.440 --> 00:14:24.549 Would you agree with that? I agree with that and I've sat down with 247 00:14:24.590 --> 00:14:28.909 our admissions team talk about how we tell stories. And the one thing that 248 00:14:28.990 --> 00:14:31.830 happens, and let's say it's not to dame, let's say it's another school 249 00:14:31.950 --> 00:14:37.509 who maybe is having trouble getting students to come to their university, to to 250 00:14:37.590 --> 00:14:41.340 enroll. What happens a lot of times is, and you think about audiences, 251 00:14:41.379 --> 00:14:43.220 right, you've got the student themselves as an audience. So that's the 252 00:14:43.299 --> 00:14:46.539 one audience that you've got to get them to think or feel something, to 253 00:14:46.620 --> 00:14:48.700 say, yes, I want to go to western Michigan or Notre Dame or 254 00:14:48.740 --> 00:14:52.169 or USC or whatever the school is right. So that's one audience. Below 255 00:14:52.250 --> 00:14:56.129 you got the parents too, and so you've got to figure out what's the 256 00:14:56.129 --> 00:15:00.450 story. I telled that parents, because this here's what happens. A young 257 00:15:00.570 --> 00:15:03.850 man or young woman will say I'm going to Notre Dame and they tell their 258 00:15:03.889 --> 00:15:07.200 classmates that and also they go white. You Pick Notre Dame. Why would 259 00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:09.679 you go there? Well, you they need to have stories to say, 260 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:13.720 well, didn't you know that this about nore name or that about mauring safety 261 00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:16.639 with parents, because the parents get in their social circles and they're saying, 262 00:15:16.639 --> 00:15:18.519 hey, where's a little johnny going to school? He goes what, he's 263 00:15:18.519 --> 00:15:20.549 going to, Notre Dame. Why did he pick Stanford? Why didn't he 264 00:15:20.669 --> 00:15:24.029 pick, you know, Harvard? You know, and you've got to give 265 00:15:24.110 --> 00:15:28.990 them the stories that they can defend the pick, defend the choice so they 266 00:15:28.990 --> 00:15:33.029 don't get talked out of it. So to me, that's why everyone needs 267 00:15:33.070 --> 00:15:35.779 to learn how to tell stories that could be told over and over again. 268 00:15:37.019 --> 00:15:39.899 They don't have to be hard. This at the impactful. They could be 269 00:15:39.899 --> 00:15:43.500 short and sweet, because you just have to get a people stories that they 270 00:15:43.539 --> 00:15:46.899 can keep in their head and they can use to defend a decision or make 271 00:15:46.980 --> 00:15:50.529 a decision right. So those are there's. It's so powerful. I mean 272 00:15:50.610 --> 00:15:52.850 it's the most powerful way of communicating fire as I'm concerned. It is telling 273 00:15:52.929 --> 00:15:56.450 a great story. Well, Jim, one additional question I have, and 274 00:15:56.929 --> 00:16:02.929 obviously all schools have been impacted in the last eighteen months with this this pandemic 275 00:16:03.049 --> 00:16:06.039 and with covid how did that impact a lot of the ways you guys were 276 00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:08.000 telling your stories, because I mean certainly the example you gave of, you 277 00:16:08.080 --> 00:16:12.480 know, an event mean you weren't doing a lot of events. So how 278 00:16:12.519 --> 00:16:15.960 did you guys kind of address that, because I mean a lot of times 279 00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:19.710 stories are kind of one to one personal events the storyboards. How did you 280 00:16:19.789 --> 00:16:25.470 implement some changes in the midst of that? I wouldn't call it a panic 281 00:16:25.590 --> 00:16:27.789 situation, but it was all hands on deck because, you know, here 282 00:16:27.830 --> 00:16:30.909 we are, things are going great and we're having a fantastic gear raising money 283 00:16:32.230 --> 00:16:34.379 and we hit with that curveball right. And so I get a phone call 284 00:16:34.419 --> 00:16:37.220 from our our VP of universe relations, Luna, and he says, Hey, 285 00:16:37.580 --> 00:16:41.860 we ever need a storytelling it's now and and you've got to come up 286 00:16:41.899 --> 00:16:45.139 with a plan and how we're going to use virtual storytelling. So the week 287 00:16:45.179 --> 00:16:49.610 after we sent students home, we started a the first thing we did was 288 00:16:49.690 --> 00:16:55.730 we start a weekly alive broadcast every Wednesday at noon and went about forty five 289 00:16:55.769 --> 00:16:59.330 minutes long, and we brought in top executive of the university and we've advanced 290 00:16:59.370 --> 00:17:03.880 to faculty members and so on. We did this every single week right through 291 00:17:04.279 --> 00:17:07.359 middle December. Then we took a few weeks off for the Christmas break, 292 00:17:07.359 --> 00:17:11.279 but then we back up again and we did all through the academic year. 293 00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:15.359 That was one thing we did. We also we did some fun things be 294 00:17:15.599 --> 00:17:18.589 because our marching band we went north. It was one of the few schools 295 00:17:18.630 --> 00:17:22.109 that brought students back. So we had students on campus. We're man and 296 00:17:22.190 --> 00:17:23.390 we were in mask and we're all ten feet awake on thing. It was 297 00:17:23.430 --> 00:17:26.589 crazy, but we had students here and, you know, our marching band 298 00:17:26.710 --> 00:17:30.180 was here, all of these singing groups and stuff. So I reached out 299 00:17:30.180 --> 00:17:32.900 to our student affairs group but said Hey, we got all these people on 300 00:17:33.019 --> 00:17:37.740 campus and no one's here in the perform let's put on a show on virtual 301 00:17:37.779 --> 00:17:41.220 show. So we created what we called the Nord and Music Festival. We 302 00:17:41.339 --> 00:17:45.450 went into their football stadium. We turned the lights on and we put these 303 00:17:45.890 --> 00:17:51.730 performance groups on the field and we live broadcast a concert and went from about 304 00:17:51.890 --> 00:17:55.450 seven at night till about eleven at night for hours. Well, we had 305 00:17:55.650 --> 00:17:59.680 thirty seven thousand people watch it live and over a hundred countries around the world. 306 00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:03.359 It's crazy, and that's one thing we did. We also did a 307 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:08.559 cooking show called fighting Irish foodies, and we did for them. We would 308 00:18:08.559 --> 00:18:11.839 just, you know, we had people come on, our chefs from our 309 00:18:11.960 --> 00:18:15.910 university, the the culinary our food service people, and they taught us something 310 00:18:15.990 --> 00:18:18.470 how to do that. We would send the rest of you out in advanced 311 00:18:18.549 --> 00:18:21.670 people could go buy this stuff, they could cook it along with us live 312 00:18:21.750 --> 00:18:22.869 with the show, or they could watch it and do it later. So, 313 00:18:23.190 --> 00:18:26.150 you know, we did all type of things. You know, we 314 00:18:26.309 --> 00:18:29.819 just, you know, we hit we had this focus that we can't see 315 00:18:29.819 --> 00:18:32.940 anyone in person. You know, we no one's coming back for football games 316 00:18:32.980 --> 00:18:34.299 and it's awful for us, you know. So so we had to go 317 00:18:34.380 --> 00:18:40.619 out there. So we created a hundred and seventy one hours of live programming. 318 00:18:40.779 --> 00:18:44.329 That's great, be a youtube. So it's crazy, but that's what 319 00:18:44.410 --> 00:18:47.569 done. But and we're taking a lot of that Bart that we've done and 320 00:18:47.730 --> 00:18:49.609 work we're taking, hopefully to this fall when we got people back. We're 321 00:18:49.609 --> 00:18:52.170 still going to do a lot of it. We learned a lot, but 322 00:18:52.490 --> 00:18:56.559 the big thing was, you know, we kept communicating, we kept engage 323 00:18:56.599 --> 00:19:00.039 and kept telling stories and we had so many people come back and say, 324 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:02.960 you know what, I feel even more connected to the University of nor even 325 00:19:02.960 --> 00:19:06.319 though I can't come back for football game. So we learned a lot and 326 00:19:06.680 --> 00:19:10.029 it was an easy but you know, we're fortunate that we have great capabilities. 327 00:19:10.069 --> 00:19:11.829 We have a break sproytelling team, but we also have this thing called 328 00:19:11.869 --> 00:19:17.950 Endi studios and we have this broadcast platform that's unbelievable. So we have great 329 00:19:17.990 --> 00:19:21.190 partner stuff. But we did a lot of this. We should the laptop 330 00:19:21.269 --> 00:19:23.420 and anybody could do so. That's why I get back to anybody could do 331 00:19:23.420 --> 00:19:26.539 this, anybody could do these things, but you just have to have stories 332 00:19:26.579 --> 00:19:30.539 to tell exactly, and I think that's one of the one of the keys, 333 00:19:30.579 --> 00:19:33.980 because I've put together on an Ebook and some presentations on marketing on a 334 00:19:33.980 --> 00:19:37.180 shoestring budget and I constantly am trying to remind people that, okay, you 335 00:19:37.220 --> 00:19:41.250 don't have to have a thirtyzero broadcast studio to do really good things. You 336 00:19:41.289 --> 00:19:44.970 have to have a story and you have to have a couple pieces of technical 337 00:19:45.210 --> 00:19:47.809 and most of it's on your phone already. And if you can do that 338 00:19:48.009 --> 00:19:49.089 and you can, you know, put together, you know, a decent, 339 00:19:49.130 --> 00:19:53.279 quality, authentic story, that's where your power is. And I love 340 00:19:53.359 --> 00:19:56.200 the fact, too, that you got you guys are saying we did a 341 00:19:56.240 --> 00:20:00.680 lot of stuff during covid that we're not going to drop. We're going to 342 00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:03.680 continue to augment it with everything else we're going to do on a normal day, 343 00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:04.599 and I think that's really important. That I want a lot of people 344 00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:08.670 to understand is that we all learned a lot lessons on covid and, as 345 00:20:08.710 --> 00:20:11.910 much as we want to see the whole pandemic in the rearview mirror, we 346 00:20:12.150 --> 00:20:17.190 cannot not do things that we learned during that time and continue on. Because, 347 00:20:17.230 --> 00:20:18.750 I mean, a lot of schools had to go to virtual tours and 348 00:20:18.789 --> 00:20:22.539 virtual campus visits. There's no reason why that can't be an option. A 349 00:20:23.019 --> 00:20:26.019 lot of people had to go to these live broadcasts, whether facebook live or 350 00:20:26.019 --> 00:20:30.740 youtube live. There's no reason why you can't continue to do that because at 351 00:20:30.779 --> 00:20:34.220 the end of the day, all of our constituents have different preferences on the 352 00:20:34.259 --> 00:20:38.730 way that they like to consume media, consume stories. Some of them want 353 00:20:38.730 --> 00:20:42.450 to be in an event, in a room of a hundred people reading storyboards. 354 00:20:42.890 --> 00:20:47.170 Other people want to be in the privacy of their own home being able 355 00:20:47.170 --> 00:20:49.079 to look at it on their phone. We've got to deliver those stories in 356 00:20:49.160 --> 00:20:55.599 the medium that they want exactly, and we've created a weekly football show that 357 00:20:55.920 --> 00:20:59.640 was widely accepted. So now we're doing that again, you know, and 358 00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:02.839 so you know, there's just things that we did that and you see it 359 00:21:02.920 --> 00:21:07.190 perfectly, you know, and it's it was probably we've saved money doing some 360 00:21:07.309 --> 00:21:08.549 of these things. So the beauty of as a now is I look at 361 00:21:08.549 --> 00:21:11.630 our budgets for this up on fiscal year, we bring in some of the 362 00:21:11.710 --> 00:21:15.630 stuff we've learned during the virtual age and we're going to save money, which 363 00:21:15.670 --> 00:21:18.700 is great. It was a crazy year, but it was it was a 364 00:21:19.099 --> 00:21:23.460 successful year for us because we found a way to engage our audiences and to 365 00:21:23.579 --> 00:21:27.099 tell stories. So it should never stop. Yeah, and I love it. 366 00:21:27.140 --> 00:21:29.819 I just want to make a point about that too. I love the 367 00:21:29.859 --> 00:21:32.859 fact that there's different formats to tell the story and you've talked about plays, 368 00:21:32.890 --> 00:21:37.009 you've talked about videos, live streams, storyboards, email, all kinds of 369 00:21:37.130 --> 00:21:41.690 things. But then there's also just the idea of being able to tell those 370 00:21:41.730 --> 00:21:45.769 stories, you know, in the context of whether they are donating, whether 371 00:21:45.809 --> 00:21:48.079 they're in rope and rolling. There's always a chance to kind of do this 372 00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:52.160 and it's really it's just a methodology that you can apply to any size or 373 00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:56.680 any shape of institutions. This is great, Jim, you've shared a lot 374 00:21:56.759 --> 00:22:00.880 with this today and if you've heard of or heard the podcast at all, 375 00:22:00.920 --> 00:22:03.509 you know that I usually ask hey, is there anything else that could be 376 00:22:03.549 --> 00:22:10.990 a quick nugget that we can offer that a high end marketer could implement immediately? 377 00:22:11.549 --> 00:22:14.630 Is there? Is there anything that you could offer? How about if 378 00:22:14.630 --> 00:22:17.579 I give you three quick tips? All right, love it. Tip Number 379 00:22:17.579 --> 00:22:19.339 One, and this something I've been doing since I've gotten a Notre Dame, 380 00:22:19.940 --> 00:22:25.259 is I try to meet with a student every week and I asked him the 381 00:22:25.299 --> 00:22:27.500 first question I ask is take me from zero to eighteen, and I'm want 382 00:22:27.500 --> 00:22:30.170 to learn about the whole life leading up to coming to Notre Dame, and 383 00:22:30.250 --> 00:22:34.049 then I take it from there, but that's something that is invaluable and this 384 00:22:34.089 --> 00:22:37.609 is where we get a lot of our stories right. So I work with 385 00:22:37.609 --> 00:22:41.170 the admissions office, I work with financial aid and I try to reach out 386 00:22:41.210 --> 00:22:44.519 and I do this almost every week. So that's number tip number one. 387 00:22:44.680 --> 00:22:48.480 Meet with a student every week. There your customer, there your great source 388 00:22:48.599 --> 00:22:52.599 for stories and they're going to be your end products someday. So you know. 389 00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:55.680 That to me is tip number one. Tip Number two is something we 390 00:22:55.759 --> 00:22:57.079 do here, Notre Dame, and I started this in New York. We 391 00:22:57.200 --> 00:23:00.869 do it. We call it best practices, and everyone that's on my team, 392 00:23:00.950 --> 00:23:04.230 whether they're on a storytelling team or my our annual giving team. I 393 00:23:04.230 --> 00:23:08.349 hate saying my team, but our storytelling team and annual giving team is assigned 394 00:23:08.509 --> 00:23:15.220 either a market segment or an industry, and we do this about every every 395 00:23:15.299 --> 00:23:17.940 other week. We meet, but about every three or four months I switch 396 00:23:18.019 --> 00:23:21.339 up with these market segments are these industries. But what I asked them to 397 00:23:21.380 --> 00:23:25.099 do is to come in and give me what's what I call the while in 398 00:23:25.180 --> 00:23:29.170 the how they sold a million products in twenty four hours. Wow that, 399 00:23:29.250 --> 00:23:32.809 I want to know how they did it. And then so they present and 400 00:23:32.930 --> 00:23:34.849 it takes some five minutes. They do the homework, they come in and 401 00:23:34.930 --> 00:23:40.730 say apple sold a thousand apple watches in thirty eight seconds. Well, Jeez, 402 00:23:40.769 --> 00:23:41.920 how they do that? Then they talk to us how they marketed that, 403 00:23:42.279 --> 00:23:45.279 and then the next question I ask is, how would we do that 404 00:23:45.400 --> 00:23:48.079 in Notre Dame? So we have this going all the time, every of 405 00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:49.720 the week, everyone in our team, and it's just best practice and it's 406 00:23:49.720 --> 00:23:53.440 a way we learn. It's how we're looking last for next at Notre Dame. 407 00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:56.750 What's the next thing we could do? Anyone could do this right look 408 00:23:56.869 --> 00:24:02.910 outside, look outside higher ad look to the industries and other groups and find 409 00:24:02.910 --> 00:24:06.589 out what are the best practices are using to raise money, sell product, 410 00:24:06.670 --> 00:24:08.029 whatever it is, and find a way to use it your school. Tip 411 00:24:08.069 --> 00:24:11.660 Three is a leadership tip, and this is what I've learned, is that 412 00:24:11.859 --> 00:24:17.700 my job as a leader is to make myself available. So you need to 413 00:24:17.740 --> 00:24:19.900 do all you can as a leader. If you have a team in high 414 00:24:19.980 --> 00:24:22.539 read, you've got to find a way to be available to yours, to 415 00:24:23.099 --> 00:24:26.809 I don't do what they called one on one. I don't believe in those. 416 00:24:26.809 --> 00:24:29.930 I want people to want to meet with me, not have to meet 417 00:24:29.970 --> 00:24:32.450 with me. There's a big difference. Are Right, if you have to 418 00:24:32.529 --> 00:24:33.690 meet me with me, that's not a good thing, typically, right. 419 00:24:34.170 --> 00:24:37.970 You know. So what I want is I just make myself available. So 420 00:24:37.089 --> 00:24:40.599 what I very have very few means. I do have some standing. Meetings 421 00:24:40.640 --> 00:24:45.119 are very few, but I just make myself available and everyone on my team 422 00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:47.759 doesn't matter. And you're getting team and the STORYTELLE team. They know they 423 00:24:47.799 --> 00:24:52.950 could just come to my office and I'll stop what I do immediately every single 424 00:24:52.069 --> 00:24:55.670 time and make myself available. So looser. That's just a quick tip that 425 00:24:55.750 --> 00:24:57.869 anybody can do. So those are things that I'd be thinking about if I 426 00:24:57.950 --> 00:25:03.509 I was in high reed marketing or enroll a marketing or developed marketing to get 427 00:25:03.549 --> 00:25:08.819 better. Very Powerful, Jim, you have shared your wisdom and with energy 428 00:25:10.019 --> 00:25:12.099 and bigger. Thank you very much for being a guest on the High Ed 429 00:25:12.180 --> 00:25:17.019 Marketer podcast. If someone would like to connect with you, what would be 430 00:25:17.140 --> 00:25:21.140 the best way for them to do so? We'll probably the my email. 431 00:25:21.140 --> 00:25:25.250 I'll give it to it's Jim dot small at end as a Nancy Das and 432 00:25:25.250 --> 00:25:29.170 David Dot Edu and if they do, I'll make this promise. I will 433 00:25:29.170 --> 00:25:33.049 send them a pdf of what we call, and I think I've got one 434 00:25:33.130 --> 00:25:37.759 here, it's our storytelling and engagement plan, and this is how we tell 435 00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:41.720 the story and it's awesome, you know, and you can steal things from 436 00:25:41.720 --> 00:25:44.400 this and you'll make it better for yourself, but this is a document that 437 00:25:44.759 --> 00:25:48.880 we created for our last campaign, the boldly campaign, and it's something we 438 00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:52.269 gave to our entire team. This is how we want to engage audiences. 439 00:25:52.430 --> 00:25:57.109 So that's something that everyone I could share. Thank you. That's very impactful. 440 00:25:57.829 --> 00:26:02.390 Bar Do you have any lastminute thoughts or comments before we close the show? 441 00:26:03.349 --> 00:26:03.859 Yeah, I just wanted to say, Jim, this has been a 442 00:26:03.859 --> 00:26:07.019 wonderful conversation. Thank you for your time and sharing it, and I just 443 00:26:07.099 --> 00:26:11.099 wanted to just kind of bring a couple thanks to the surface for everybody as 444 00:26:11.099 --> 00:26:15.259 they've listened to this episode, just to kind of walk away from one. 445 00:26:15.420 --> 00:26:18.460 I think Jim made it very clear that this is something that anybody can do. 446 00:26:18.569 --> 00:26:22.130 I mean again, I've worked with a lot of schools with twenty students 447 00:26:22.250 --> 00:26:26.049 to schools, you know, largest online's public school in the nation. It 448 00:26:26.170 --> 00:26:30.250 doesn't matter your size, it doesn't matter your budget, it doesn't matter a 449 00:26:30.369 --> 00:26:33.240 lot of things. You can do this. You can do this type of 450 00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:37.000 storytelling. A lot of what Jim talked about today can be can be scaled 451 00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:40.000 down or scaled up to however you need to do that, so remember that. 452 00:26:40.440 --> 00:26:42.640 I also love the fact that these last three tips, he talked about 453 00:26:44.319 --> 00:26:48.789 interviewing the students. Mary Bar from Ball State University and Episode Twenty One also 454 00:26:48.829 --> 00:26:52.349 talked about the idea of her habit of every time during orientation, sitting down 455 00:26:52.390 --> 00:26:56.710 with students and families and asking them similar things. One to gather stories, 456 00:26:56.789 --> 00:27:00.470 like Jim said, but also to kind of get a pulse on what's going 457 00:27:00.589 --> 00:27:03.779 on. What what? How are they making their decisions? Why did they 458 00:27:03.819 --> 00:27:06.900 end up where they are? And I think that so many people talk about 459 00:27:06.900 --> 00:27:08.460 what we don't have the budget for focus groups and we don't have the budget 460 00:27:08.460 --> 00:27:11.980 for this. You have the time to do that and I think Jim and 461 00:27:12.059 --> 00:27:17.049 Mary both have talked about a couple ideas and how you can do that without 462 00:27:17.410 --> 00:27:21.009 impacting your budget. It's just a matter of Jim's third tip. They're being 463 00:27:21.009 --> 00:27:26.009 available, not only being available to your staff but being available to learning about 464 00:27:26.009 --> 00:27:27.849 your students just by asking them. So I think that's really powerful. And 465 00:27:27.970 --> 00:27:32.119 then, finally, I think to that second tip, in between the other 466 00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:34.640 ones that I've already talked about. I've been a big believer because I came 467 00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:37.640 out of corporate much like Jim. Did you know? I remember being in 468 00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:41.400 the motor Rolla War Room in one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine helping them 469 00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:45.829 figure out how to start explaining why people would want to take a photo on 470 00:27:45.869 --> 00:27:49.630 their phone and why, what what's text messaging is, and we we did 471 00:27:49.670 --> 00:27:55.029 all these these flash based things that that their call center could use and we 472 00:27:55.109 --> 00:27:59.500 put them up on the carrier websites on trying to get people to understand what 473 00:27:59.660 --> 00:28:03.700 these new technologies with phones, that phones were moving from being phones into what 474 00:28:03.819 --> 00:28:07.579 we now know as smartphones. And I remember being in that that war room, 475 00:28:07.619 --> 00:28:10.539 and we were sitting in there. I was my agency was the smallest 476 00:28:10.579 --> 00:28:12.890 one in there. I think Ogilvie and mather and a couple other huge agencies 477 00:28:12.930 --> 00:28:15.690 were in there and and they were kind of walking through this. But what 478 00:28:15.769 --> 00:28:18.329 I took away from is we were also doing a little bit of work and 479 00:28:18.369 --> 00:28:22.529 higher at at that time and I and I would go back to higher end 480 00:28:22.529 --> 00:28:25.289 and I'd said, you know, monor Rolla is getting ready to sell their 481 00:28:25.369 --> 00:28:29.559 phones to the teenage market. This is what they're using and how they're thinking 482 00:28:29.599 --> 00:28:33.079 about it, and we were able to do that and kind of apply that. 483 00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:34.359 I mean, I wasn't stealing anything, but it was the idea of 484 00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:37.720 we are trying to figure out the way that they're doing it and then applying 485 00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:41.950 it over to higher end and I think the gym's point of what the how 486 00:28:41.109 --> 00:28:45.509 and the the wow and the how. How did wow? Apple did that? 487 00:28:45.670 --> 00:28:47.869 How they do it? Wow, target did that. How did they 488 00:28:47.869 --> 00:28:51.029 do that? You can apply that to anybody and just kind of keep a 489 00:28:51.190 --> 00:28:56.700 pulse on popular culture, on corporate on what's going on, because the fact 490 00:28:56.740 --> 00:28:59.140 of the matter is is targets going to spend a ton of more money on 491 00:28:59.299 --> 00:29:03.579 marketing than any school will ever and if you can kind of learn from them 492 00:29:03.619 --> 00:29:07.099 and kind of ride their coat tails, you're going to be much more further 493 00:29:07.180 --> 00:29:10.730 down the road than otherwise, and so I think that those are really great 494 00:29:10.769 --> 00:29:12.650 tips and again, thank you, Jim, and it's been a great pleasure 495 00:29:12.690 --> 00:29:15.809 having this conversation. Thanks for having Notre Dame on the show. We really 496 00:29:15.809 --> 00:29:21.490 appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you both for a wonderful conversation. The 497 00:29:21.569 --> 00:29:26.720 hired marketer podcast is sponsored by Taylor solutions and education marketing and branding agency and 498 00:29:26.920 --> 00:29:32.640 by think patented, a marketing, execution, printing and mailing provider of higher 499 00:29:32.720 --> 00:29:37.839 its solutions. On behalf of Bart Taylor, I'm troy singer. Thank you 500 00:29:37.920 --> 00:29:45.190 for joining us. You've been listening to the Higher Ed Marketer. To ensure 501 00:29:45.269 --> 00:29:48.109 that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast 502 00:29:48.150 --> 00:29:52.500 player. If you're listening with apple PODCASTS, we'd love for you to leave 503 00:29:52.500 --> 00:29:56.980 a quick rating of the show. Simply tap the number of stars you think 504 00:29:56.019 --> 00:29:59.579 the podcast deserves. Until next time,