Marketing Principles That Translate Across All Industries

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:06.320 The High Red Marketer podcast is sponsored by the ZEM APP enabling colleges and universities 2 00:00:06.519 --> 00:00:13.960 to engage interested students before they even apply. You're listening to the Higher Ed 3 00:00:14.039 --> 00:00:19.320 Marketer, a podcast geared towards marketing professionals in higher education. This show will 4 00:00:19.320 --> 00:00:24.160 tackle all sorts of questions related to student recruitment, donor relations, marketing trends, 5 00:00:24.199 --> 00:00:28.960 new technologies and so much more. If you're looking for conversations centered around 6 00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:33.159 where the industry is going, this podcast is for you. Let's get into 7 00:00:33.200 --> 00:00:44.640 the show. Welcome to the hired marketer podcast. I'm troy singer and, 8 00:00:44.759 --> 00:00:48.719 as usual, here with my co host Bart Kaylor, and each week we 9 00:00:48.920 --> 00:00:54.000 quest to interview hired marketers that we admire for the benefit and hopefully the betterment 10 00:00:54.079 --> 00:01:00.000 of the entire hired community. I love our conversation with Kim Bartlett Martinez today 11 00:01:00.119 --> 00:01:04.439 because she is someone that has worked in marketing for her entire life. A 12 00:01:04.519 --> 00:01:07.920 big part of that has been in higher reed, but a big part of 13 00:01:07.959 --> 00:01:12.719 it has been outside of Higher Ed, and the perspective she brings is both 14 00:01:12.840 --> 00:01:19.280 interesting but also very resourceful. She has a lot of knowledge that she conveys 15 00:01:19.359 --> 00:01:22.760 within our conversation. Yeah, I think it's it's an incredible opportunity. I 16 00:01:22.760 --> 00:01:26.200 mean we've had a lot of different, different guests on the podcast who have 17 00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:29.959 had a background in corporate and then come into higher read and different things like 18 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:32.359 that. But I think one of the things I really like about what Kim 19 00:01:32.400 --> 00:01:34.560 brings to the table is that, I mean, she was managing major brands 20 00:01:34.599 --> 00:01:38.599 that we all recognize. I mean she worked a big part of her career, 21 00:01:38.599 --> 00:01:41.879 twenty years in general mills, so she was working on, you know, 22 00:01:42.120 --> 00:01:47.719 marketing campaigns for Cheerios, brand manager for Pillsbury, all kinds of things 23 00:01:47.719 --> 00:01:49.959 that were very, very familiar with. But then she took all of that 24 00:01:51.040 --> 00:01:56.719 knowledge and went into the freshly minted chief marketing officer role at University of St 25 00:01:56.719 --> 00:02:00.959 Thomas in Minnesota. And Uh, that's a that's a medium, small to 26 00:02:00.040 --> 00:02:06.359 medium sized private faith based institution. That I think is just amazing story to 27 00:02:06.439 --> 00:02:10.000 talk about how she kind of positioned what she brought to the table and really 28 00:02:10.039 --> 00:02:15.800 made a big impact and move the needle for for that school. And please 29 00:02:15.879 --> 00:02:20.840 know when we first started talking to her she was still at St Thomas, 30 00:02:20.879 --> 00:02:25.199 but now she is the chief marketing officer for the American Cancer Society, but 31 00:02:25.360 --> 00:02:30.680 she lent us her wisdom still and came back and talked about higher red marketing. 32 00:02:30.919 --> 00:02:38.319 So here's our conversation with Kim Bartlett Martinez. It is great to have 33 00:02:38.599 --> 00:02:44.479 Kim as a guest on our podcast and it's funny because when we first approached 34 00:02:44.479 --> 00:02:50.199 her she was a Cmo at the university, but now she is the Cmo 35 00:02:50.360 --> 00:02:53.639 at the American Cancer Society. Kim, thank you for joining us. Uh, 36 00:02:53.759 --> 00:02:57.840 if you would tell us a little bit about your current role, but 37 00:02:57.919 --> 00:03:01.159 then after that we'll back up and we'll follow your journey, the reason why 38 00:03:01.159 --> 00:03:06.439 we're talking to you today. Sure. So I'm currently the two marketing officer, 39 00:03:06.520 --> 00:03:08.680 as you said, for the American Cancer Society. I've been doing that 40 00:03:08.759 --> 00:03:13.319 for all of two and a half months, so it's still relatively new, 41 00:03:13.759 --> 00:03:17.879 Um, and in that role I'm responsible for, uh, stewarding the American 42 00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:23.879 cancer sciety brand, consistently telling the full story of the American cancer study all 43 00:03:23.919 --> 00:03:27.919 the impact that it has. The brand challenge that they have is that a 44 00:03:27.919 --> 00:03:30.080 lot of people have heard of it Um and feel positively about it, but 45 00:03:30.159 --> 00:03:35.280 not a lot of people can actually articulate exactly what the American cancer study does. 46 00:03:35.319 --> 00:03:38.840 So it's a really fun challenge from a marketing standpoint to be a part 47 00:03:38.840 --> 00:03:40.759 of that Um. But before that Um, well, actually, if you 48 00:03:42.159 --> 00:03:46.759 roll all the way back, um I actually started my marketing career at General 49 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:51.199 Mills. I have Um, I have been in marketing my entire my my 50 00:03:51.360 --> 00:03:54.280 entire working life. My in between first and second year of College I was 51 00:03:54.319 --> 00:03:58.199 assigned to a I was working for a bank and they assigned me to the 52 00:03:58.240 --> 00:04:00.960 marketing department and I haven't worked out side marketing since. And so I basically 53 00:04:01.000 --> 00:04:05.960 spent my career then getting a collection of different kinds of marketing experiences and I 54 00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:10.319 started out right out of school in Um, in financial services. That met 55 00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:14.400 life in New York City. Um quickly realized that at the age of twenty 56 00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:17.079 six I felt like I was teaching more than I was learning and I wanted 57 00:04:17.120 --> 00:04:21.160 to actually go work for a place where I could really learn from Um what 58 00:04:21.240 --> 00:04:24.399 I considered to be the best of the best of the craft. So to 59 00:04:24.439 --> 00:04:27.240 do that I had to go back at my m B, a Um, 60 00:04:27.279 --> 00:04:30.480 and then was recruited to work for General Mills, and so spent about twenty 61 00:04:30.519 --> 00:04:34.160 years with General Mills and that was what I would call my classic marketing training. 62 00:04:34.399 --> 00:04:39.439 Um. Big Company, Great Training Program Great People. Um. But 63 00:04:39.519 --> 00:04:43.959 after almost twenty years it was time to think about the next challenge and right 64 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:47.800 around that time the University of St Thomas in Minnesota was looking for its first 65 00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:51.720 ever chief marketing officer. and Um, even though I had not planned at 66 00:04:51.720 --> 00:04:57.319 all to target or go into Higher Ed, Um, the opportunity just seemed 67 00:04:57.399 --> 00:05:00.959 too good to pass up, and it was a chance to build an organization 68 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:03.480 from from the bottom up and to really be part of Um, the Higher 69 00:05:03.560 --> 00:05:08.199 Ed world, which I think has a fantastic mission in terms of educating the 70 00:05:08.240 --> 00:05:12.360 next generation of leaders and so Um. So I joined. I joined them 71 00:05:12.399 --> 00:05:15.399 and was there for about five and a half years before Um and I did 72 00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:19.360 not want to get I did. I was not looking, but this opportunity 73 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:23.199 with the American Cancer Society just tapped me on the shoulder and it was something 74 00:05:23.399 --> 00:05:26.439 I couldn't say no to. And I feel like my whole career, everything 75 00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:29.879 I've done at general mills, everything I did at the University of St Thomas, 76 00:05:29.879 --> 00:05:31.800 prepared me for the role I have now and in fact I don't think 77 00:05:31.879 --> 00:05:35.839 I would have been able to do this job without St Thomas or without General 78 00:05:35.879 --> 00:05:39.879 Mills. That's great. That's great and I think it's interesting and I was. 79 00:05:40.120 --> 00:05:42.680 I I have a mixed career as well that I did a lot in 80 00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:46.680 corporate and and now focused in on the Higher Ed but I always think it's 81 00:05:46.680 --> 00:05:49.120 interesting and I'd like to get your take because I think sometimes, you know, 82 00:05:49.199 --> 00:05:53.800 fifteen, twenty years ago, uh, the word marketing was something that's 83 00:05:53.800 --> 00:05:58.720 a little bit taboo when you would talk in academic circles. How did you 84 00:05:59.079 --> 00:06:01.040 I mean, what was your impression, you know, coming straight out of 85 00:06:01.120 --> 00:06:05.439 a large corporate you know, managing some major brands, into a place that 86 00:06:05.519 --> 00:06:11.879 maybe saw marketing a little differently than you did? Well, it was a 87 00:06:11.879 --> 00:06:16.120 culture shock because in the consumer packaged goods world, you know, marketing is 88 00:06:16.360 --> 00:06:18.639 the center of the wheel, as we always like to say. So it 89 00:06:18.720 --> 00:06:23.560 is the decision maker, it is where General Management and marketing are merged together. 90 00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:26.800 Um. So you do have a lot of positional power, I guess, 91 00:06:26.839 --> 00:06:30.240 I will say, in terms of being able to Um lead change there 92 00:06:30.360 --> 00:06:33.439 and going from that environment, where nobody questions the value of marketing, into 93 00:06:33.480 --> 00:06:39.279 the Higher Ed environment where it wasn't that people, Um didn't see the value 94 00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:42.079 of marketing, but they had a couple of questions about it. Like so, 95 00:06:42.120 --> 00:06:45.600 for example, on my Um, my initial team I had, I 96 00:06:45.680 --> 00:06:48.720 had a several journalists and, you know, as their training, journalists Um 97 00:06:48.720 --> 00:06:53.560 in journalism school. That's all about being objective and it's all about putting the 98 00:06:53.560 --> 00:06:56.879 facts out there so that people can draw, you know, their own conclusions, 99 00:06:57.000 --> 00:07:00.480 and so I definitely had there was some skepticism with a mark are coming 100 00:07:00.519 --> 00:07:04.319 in that Um. Actually, even the word unethical was one that I heard 101 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:08.839 used, which I thought was so strange because never in my career have I 102 00:07:08.879 --> 00:07:13.480 ever felt like I've either asked or done anything unethical, um. And I 103 00:07:13.480 --> 00:07:15.720 I then tried to get to the root of where that was coming from, 104 00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:18.639 and it turned out it came from again, this belief that possibly marketers are 105 00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:23.160 spinners and that they're not going to tell you the full truth, Um. 106 00:07:23.279 --> 00:07:27.480 And so from that that there were some folks that felt that that was unethical 107 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:30.480 and I had to just say, well, we can agree to disagree, 108 00:07:30.519 --> 00:07:32.519 but here's the way I look at it. I think of marketers as people. 109 00:07:32.560 --> 00:07:38.079 We have spotlights to shine and we get to decide where we shine those 110 00:07:38.120 --> 00:07:41.680 spotlights and we're going to shine those, obviously in the place that tells the 111 00:07:41.680 --> 00:07:44.800 best story for the institution. But that doesn't mean we're going to be dishonest 112 00:07:44.839 --> 00:07:48.199 about other aspects of us. And nowadays you can find pretty much every piece 113 00:07:48.199 --> 00:07:50.680 of information you want on the web anyway. So whether I tell you or 114 00:07:50.680 --> 00:07:54.759 not, you're going to be able to go find it. So Um, 115 00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:59.240 that was that was one hurdle, just having to make sure that folks felt 116 00:07:59.240 --> 00:08:01.279 comfortable with Um, with marketers, um. And so what I had to 117 00:08:01.319 --> 00:08:05.839 do there is just be really, really clear with the team and as we 118 00:08:05.839 --> 00:08:09.120 were forming, that this was a marketing bus. You know, and I 119 00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:13.759 think about Um Jim Collins and the words and his words from that wonderful book 120 00:08:13.800 --> 00:08:16.079 good to great, and he talks about you know just where the bus is 121 00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:18.959 going and you've got to get the right people on the bus. And I 122 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:22.639 said to my team, I said, well, this is where our bus 123 00:08:22.680 --> 00:08:26.079 is going. It's a marketing bus and you can get on it or not. 124 00:08:26.279 --> 00:08:28.480 That's fine, um, but um, but this is a marketing bus 125 00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:31.440 and I would encourage if you don't feel that that alligns with your values, 126 00:08:31.519 --> 00:08:35.919 to not necessarily do that. Not Don't get on it. From the beginning. 127 00:08:35.159 --> 00:08:39.240 The other the other thing, Um, just with regard to marketing and 128 00:08:39.320 --> 00:08:43.039 Higher Ed was this notion of Um, do you really need to sell the 129 00:08:43.039 --> 00:08:46.600 product? Shouldn't the products sell itself? I mean it's if it's good enough. 130 00:08:46.840 --> 00:08:48.200 Um. You know, do we really need to go out and kind 131 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:50.759 of tell people about it? And, you know, to that end, 132 00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:54.559 I was like, well, you know, Cheerios is the number one serial 133 00:08:54.679 --> 00:08:56.559 in the United States and yeah, we spend an awful lot of money marketing 134 00:08:56.639 --> 00:09:00.360 Cheerios to remind people that it's out there, even though it's a fan tastic 135 00:09:00.440 --> 00:09:03.279 products. So it's one of those things just reminding people of the importance of 136 00:09:03.519 --> 00:09:09.120 Um, breaking through and building awareness. And in St Thomas's case, we 137 00:09:09.200 --> 00:09:13.000 definitely did have an awareness issue outside of our region, where we're very well 138 00:09:13.039 --> 00:09:16.960 known, but Um, you know, outside of Minnesota in the Upper Midwest, 139 00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:18.799 we had some room to grow. So just trying to make the case 140 00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:24.080 for why marketing would make sense Um and just building trust over time. It 141 00:09:24.159 --> 00:09:26.320 was the kind of thing like I can say all of these things, but 142 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:28.159 then obviously people are going to judge us more on the basis of what we 143 00:09:28.240 --> 00:09:31.279 do and the results that we get. Um So it was. It was 144 00:09:31.320 --> 00:09:33.840 about building trust, though, from the beginning. Yeah, and I think 145 00:09:33.879 --> 00:09:37.200 that that's such a such a key element. I want to come back to 146 00:09:37.240 --> 00:09:37.960 that in a second, but I think that one of the things too, 147 00:09:37.960 --> 00:09:43.200 that I at least when I am on college campuses and working with marketing departments, 148 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:46.759 and and even sometimes when they don't have a marketing department, but I'm 149 00:09:46.759 --> 00:09:52.240 working with enrollment like really small schools, having them understand that there's a difference 150 00:09:52.279 --> 00:09:56.440 between checking boxes off a task list and and, you know, and and 151 00:09:56.480 --> 00:10:01.559 the types of people that you have doing it, versus true marketing. I 152 00:10:01.559 --> 00:10:05.000 mean, I think even in our in our initial conversations, you kind of 153 00:10:05.039 --> 00:10:07.159 talked about project managers versus marketers. So tell me a little bit about that. 154 00:10:07.279 --> 00:10:13.240 Yes, yes, yes, Um, and I actually see that to 155 00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:16.799 some extent in the organization that I'm in today. So I actually don't necessarily 156 00:10:16.840 --> 00:10:22.159 see that as an issue specifically for higher ed but Um, because I think 157 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:26.279 there's lots of different flavors of marketing out there. Um, I think that 158 00:10:26.320 --> 00:10:31.360 not everybody understands the strategic value that a marketer can bring, and so one 159 00:10:31.399 --> 00:10:33.919 thing that we worked hard to do when we were forming our team at St 160 00:10:33.919 --> 00:10:39.279 Thomas was to make sure we set the expectation were strategic partners and actually deliberately 161 00:10:39.360 --> 00:10:43.240 did not call the schools and the colleges that we worked with clients, because 162 00:10:43.320 --> 00:10:46.559 that would have implied that I had to do whatever they asked me to do 163 00:10:46.600 --> 00:10:50.279 because I was their client and they were, you know, paying the bills. 164 00:10:50.279 --> 00:10:54.159 Boar. We specifically said what we were partners and, Um, you 165 00:10:54.159 --> 00:10:56.360 know, and in that means, um I, when you come to me 166 00:10:56.440 --> 00:11:00.120 with a with an issue, please don't come to me and say I need 167 00:11:00.200 --> 00:11:03.960 a video that does this or I need I want, I want a flyer 168 00:11:03.080 --> 00:11:07.799 that has this picture and these bullets and this headline. Go make that. 169 00:11:07.279 --> 00:11:09.519 Um. What I want to know is what are you trying to do? 170 00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:13.799 What audience are you trying to reach? What do you already know about this 171 00:11:13.879 --> 00:11:16.840 audience in terms of messages that would be you know, that would move them 172 00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:22.039 to act? And then let me take this back to my team and let's 173 00:11:22.240 --> 00:11:24.120 let us come back to you with what we think would be the way to 174 00:11:24.159 --> 00:11:28.240 solve that problem that you're having in the way that makes the most sense, 175 00:11:28.279 --> 00:11:31.919 either from a budget standpoint or from an impact standpoint. And so it was 176 00:11:31.960 --> 00:11:37.480 about Um learning to be in that strategic partnership Um. That actually was something 177 00:11:37.559 --> 00:11:43.960 that we had to get the university aware that this was how we were going 178 00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:48.279 to be Um acting in moving forward. So again it required some open mindedness 179 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:52.600 on the part of our partners. So in the beginning we had to give 180 00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:56.240 people, the folks on our internal team, permission to be able to be 181 00:11:56.320 --> 00:12:03.159 strategic and permission to say no to what was essentially coming in as really tactical 182 00:12:03.799 --> 00:12:09.279 requests and to permission to ask to have that more strategic conversation with the partners. 183 00:12:09.320 --> 00:12:13.279 And then for our partners, we had to make sure that they understood, 184 00:12:13.279 --> 00:12:16.039 hey, we're going to come at you perhaps with some different ideas and 185 00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:18.320 some different thoughts than what you came to us with, and what we need 186 00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:22.919 you to do is to be open minded about that. Yeah, I think 187 00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:26.399 I think that reminds me a little bit about a conversation that we had with 188 00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:31.080 Ethan Braden at Perdue University. He kind of called at the difference of being 189 00:12:31.080 --> 00:12:33.759 a short order cook versus a chef. You know, the idea that that 190 00:12:33.799 --> 00:12:37.080 you know, we can take short order cook orders all day long and just 191 00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:41.840 do what everybody wants that's not really marketing, that's actually just, you know, 192 00:12:41.879 --> 00:12:45.000 serving up a dish, or we can actually find out what they want 193 00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:48.159 and what they need and create a meal. So that's a great, great 194 00:12:48.159 --> 00:13:18.080 point. Yeah, no, that's definitely right, and it was actually funny 195 00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:22.039 because when I first got to the university and I was thinking about roles and 196 00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:26.000 responsibilities and who would have final authority and final accountability, you know, initially 197 00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:28.519 I had thought, when I was working with the deans or even, you 198 00:13:28.519 --> 00:13:33.440 know, in the center of the university, that Um, those business owners 199 00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:37.240 would have responsibility for the strategies, right, and they would actually tell us 200 00:13:37.279 --> 00:13:39.759 then these are our strategies, these are objectives, and then we would actually 201 00:13:39.799 --> 00:13:43.080 go to work on those. But then I, as the CMO, would 202 00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:46.679 have final say over the creative Um and would be able to say this is 203 00:13:46.679 --> 00:13:50.679 what I think you should do. And what I quickly realized as we started 204 00:13:50.720 --> 00:13:54.039 all working together, that I absolutely wanted to say in their strategies, because 205 00:13:54.039 --> 00:13:58.840 I didn't always love the way the strategies were given over and I thought that 206 00:14:00.039 --> 00:14:03.679 actually we added a lot of value to our partners, our schools and college 207 00:14:03.720 --> 00:14:05.919 partners, by asking some of the questions that we did Um. They weren't 208 00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:11.600 always um in conversations where they were really thinking, you know, about what 209 00:14:11.639 --> 00:14:15.399 they were trying to do. So in that regard I felt like we were 210 00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:18.919 adding a lot of value to them in terms of pushing their thinking on the 211 00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:20.480 strategic front a little bit more. And then, at the end of the 212 00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:24.200 day too, I also wasn't going to make them run a piece of creative 213 00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:26.440 that they hated or that they didn't believe in. So I was like, 214 00:14:26.440 --> 00:14:30.559 okay, fine, we'll share responsibility on the strategy side and we can also 215 00:14:30.600 --> 00:14:33.600 share on the creative side too. So I what I learned, and this 216 00:14:33.639 --> 00:14:35.600 was kind of a theme with Higher Ed, that nothing is like as black 217 00:14:35.639 --> 00:14:39.480 and white is maybe it might have been when I was at general mills in 218 00:14:39.559 --> 00:14:43.600 terms of approvals. It was much more of a blend, Um, a 219 00:14:43.759 --> 00:14:46.720 gray that actually I came to really embrace and really like and felt like we 220 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:52.480 got to Um really great places because of that gray, because we weren't pushing 221 00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:54.240 to the black or the white right from the very beginning. So it came 222 00:14:54.279 --> 00:14:58.159 to be something I really appreciated. We talk a lot about it on the 223 00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:01.399 show. Schools are really struggling today. That makes the same at spend work. 224 00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:07.080 CPMS are up eight year over year on facebook and instagram. Our College 225 00:15:07.120 --> 00:15:11.639 clients are no longer looking for rented audiences. They're looking for an owned community 226 00:15:11.639 --> 00:15:16.799 where they can engage students even before they apply. This is why Zemi has 227 00:15:16.840 --> 00:15:20.240 become so crucial for our clients, with over one million students, close to 228 00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:24.879 ten thousand five star ratings, consistently ranked as one of the top social lapps 229 00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:30.519 and recently one of Apple's hot APPs of the week. There simply isn't anything 230 00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:33.600 out there like it, and we have seen it all. Ze Me not 231 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:37.919 only provides the best space for student engagement, but the most unique and action 232 00:15:37.960 --> 00:15:43.440 wal data for their one sixty college and university partners. We know firsthand from 233 00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:46.440 our clients that Ze me is a must have strategy for Gen Z. Check 234 00:15:46.519 --> 00:15:52.840 them out now at colleges dot Zem dot com. That's colleges dot Z E 235 00:15:54.360 --> 00:15:58.679 M E dot Com. And yes, tell them which has to change over. 236 00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:03.480 When you came to be, I believe you took the road show to 237 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:07.960 the rest of the campus to kind of convey this. How did that go? 238 00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:12.519 Can you kind of describe how how that went? Yeah, yeah, 239 00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:17.919 that idea came about because, as I was saying, we needed to train, 240 00:16:18.120 --> 00:16:19.840 if you will, the university to work with US differently, because it 241 00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:23.679 was a completely different team, it was a completely different strategy, completely different 242 00:16:23.679 --> 00:16:27.559 philosophy, and so we needed a way to help people understand what it was 243 00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:30.039 that we were trying to do. So that gave rise to the idea of 244 00:16:30.039 --> 00:16:33.639 this road show that we did, and we did it not only with all 245 00:16:33.639 --> 00:16:36.840 the schools and colleges, but we also did it with all the internal departments, 246 00:16:36.919 --> 00:16:38.840 you know, the Finance Group, Um, you know, development, 247 00:16:40.120 --> 00:16:44.000 anyone who might want to know about marketing. We were happy to kind of 248 00:16:44.039 --> 00:16:47.240 come in and tell our story and, Um, as part of this we 249 00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:49.879 covered, um, what our creative vision was and actually, even before that, 250 00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:55.000 why we needed to have a creative vision. Um, pointing out that 251 00:16:55.320 --> 00:16:59.279 there is a sea of Vanilla in Higher Ed Marketing. In fact, there's 252 00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:00.799 even a book on it. It's called three in a tree, you know, 253 00:17:00.840 --> 00:17:04.920 which is like we're just saying that basically, you look at Higher Ed 254 00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:07.960 pictures, there'll be three students and usually under a tree. You know, 255 00:17:08.039 --> 00:17:11.279 that's like your traditional kind of like higher ed look and feel, and so 256 00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:15.960 we needed to explain to people why it was we needed to break through, 257 00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:21.240 what the importance of breakthrough meant. Um, and then Um, the skill 258 00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:23.559 set that we had to go against that. Um, how we were going 259 00:17:23.559 --> 00:17:27.440 to be working differently. Um, how do you even give good creative feedback? 260 00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:30.799 You know, we had a whole slew of folks that, you know, 261 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:33.000 when you showed them creative would say, well, I'm not sure I 262 00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:37.079 really like the color red or something like that, which not super strategic in 263 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:38.519 that so we had to kind of encourage people to know, you've got to 264 00:17:38.519 --> 00:17:41.519 go deeper than that, Um and come up with Um. You know. 265 00:17:41.559 --> 00:17:45.720 So, what is it that you're reacting to here? Um, that actually 266 00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:48.880 might be something that would cause us to think a little bit differently about this 267 00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:55.079 piece of creative so we also address the issue of Um. You know, 268 00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:57.559 some books were thinking this is higher Ed, this is a very expensive purchase, 269 00:17:57.640 --> 00:18:00.480 a very expensive purchase. You know, you can't use humor. You 270 00:18:00.519 --> 00:18:04.640 have to be really serious because this is a really serious um purchase. And 271 00:18:04.680 --> 00:18:08.839 so we actually took examples from others. We we well, since we were 272 00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:12.559 a Catholic, a faith based institution, we actually took examples from the Catholic 273 00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:18.759 Church of times when they've tried to go after different audiences and used Um more 274 00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:21.920 humorous means of doing it. We have a really terrific example of that in 275 00:18:21.960 --> 00:18:25.480 our own backyard here in Minneapolis that we were able to show people, as 276 00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:29.240 well as other universities that had broken through by using Um, you know, 277 00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:32.079 just really fun different ways of talking about it. So and that way we 278 00:18:32.119 --> 00:18:34.839 tried to build the case for why it was Um that we needed to work 279 00:18:34.839 --> 00:18:37.279 differently and then how we were going to work differently, and then we ran 280 00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:41.519 through our areas. Um at St Thomas. Our group is called marketing, 281 00:18:41.559 --> 00:18:45.200 insights and communications, so it's called Mike for Short, and I know that's 282 00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:48.920 a little unusual because usually you're either marketing or maybe your Mark Holm, but 283 00:18:49.000 --> 00:18:53.799 we very deliberately um named our group marketing, insights and communications, because that 284 00:18:53.880 --> 00:18:56.839 insights part. We didn't want that to get lost. And again, just 285 00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:00.799 wanted to make sure that every campaign, every thing that we were doing started 286 00:19:00.920 --> 00:19:04.599 on an insight, Um, an empathy building for who we were trying to 287 00:19:04.640 --> 00:19:08.160 talk to, and so we explained that as part of the road show as 288 00:19:08.200 --> 00:19:11.279 well. Why was it so important that that insights be part of Our Name? 289 00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:15.759 I think that's great and I think that the effort of doing that road 290 00:19:15.799 --> 00:19:19.200 show probably gained you some some street cred, if you will. I mean 291 00:19:19.319 --> 00:19:23.759 because you're inviting everyone in for the conversation. But going back to that, 292 00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:26.359 one of those comments that you made just a moment ago is that idea of 293 00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:30.640 utilizing humor and utilizing some things. And I've done a lot of work in 294 00:19:30.680 --> 00:19:34.680 faith based too, and sometimes I know that there's that that seriousness and and 295 00:19:34.680 --> 00:19:37.920 and a little bit of that is uh, you know, there there there 296 00:19:37.960 --> 00:19:41.279 tends to be some hesitancy on that. Tell me a little bit about one 297 00:19:41.279 --> 00:19:44.599 of the creatives you came up with, and I think we talked about this 298 00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:48.400 earlier. That, I think is brilliant and I think it kind of illustrates 299 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:52.759 this this this point for you. Yeah, so Um at St Thomas Um, 300 00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:56.680 one of the strategic objectives that we had was just reminding everybody about our 301 00:19:56.720 --> 00:20:02.440 academic credentials and making sure of the academic excellence was something that was very core 302 00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:06.559 to who we were and what we what we did. Um, again, 303 00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:10.799 also a faith based institution, but we also knew from research that sometimes people 304 00:20:10.839 --> 00:20:14.599 were nervous about that because they thought that maybe they'd come to St Thomas and 305 00:20:14.599 --> 00:20:18.079 we would try and convert them to Catholicism or something like that. So we 306 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:22.799 knew to Um that the faith part of what we did was important to whole 307 00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:26.720 person formation and was very attractive to parents and students when we talked about it 308 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:30.559 in terms of character formation in general. Um, whether you were Catholic or 309 00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:33.799 not, that was appealing and so we were looking for something that would thread 310 00:20:33.799 --> 00:20:37.000 the needle there and what we came up with, our our head creative Pete 311 00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:41.960 Winnicky, came up with was this line blessed are the Nerdy, which in 312 00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:45.039 my mind was just this perfect encapsulation of the strategy that we were trying to 313 00:20:45.079 --> 00:20:48.480 employ, where the blessed are the you know, you get a little bit 314 00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:52.160 of that nod to the religious faith based and then, of course, the 315 00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:55.920 nerdy nods to the academic excellence kind of like piece of it. So it's 316 00:20:55.960 --> 00:20:59.079 a little bit of a tongue in cheek thing and um I loved it when 317 00:20:59.079 --> 00:21:02.240 I first saw it, but I was actually nervous about it because I wasn't 318 00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:04.720 sure where the line was on church humor in terms of whether we put that 319 00:21:04.759 --> 00:21:08.200 out into the world. So we did what we often do at St Thomas 320 00:21:08.279 --> 00:21:11.519 when we're faced with people who have differences in point of views. We took 321 00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:17.400 the risk UM and made it smaller and decided to put it in market just 322 00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:19.000 to test, to see how it would react. I mean, and by 323 00:21:19.079 --> 00:21:22.720 smaller I mean not splashing it on a big TV campaign right out of the 324 00:21:22.759 --> 00:21:27.519 gates, but we tried it in a digital campaign actually that we were we 325 00:21:27.559 --> 00:21:32.559 had just lowered our summer tuition by fifty percent. It was like right up, 326 00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:34.279 you know, I got there in the fall and then we had decided 327 00:21:34.279 --> 00:21:37.839 that we were going to discount summer tuition by but in order to do that 328 00:21:37.880 --> 00:21:41.880 effectively, we then needed to of course, double the amount of credits that 329 00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:44.480 people were taking in order to be able to break through. And it was 330 00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:47.400 one of the first big assignments that the provost had given to me, you 331 00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:49.400 know, as part of our new marketing department. And at first we tried 332 00:21:49.480 --> 00:21:52.000 to have we had the three in the tree ads, you know, with 333 00:21:52.039 --> 00:21:56.440 the kids laying on the grass like kind of with fifty percent off summer tuition, 334 00:21:56.880 --> 00:22:00.279 and we did it digitally and the click through rates were actually below um 335 00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:03.480 the average of the higher ed norm. So like okay, this isn't working. 336 00:22:03.960 --> 00:22:07.640 Um. So then we played around with some visuals where we literally took 337 00:22:07.640 --> 00:22:12.359 one of our students into our studio and blew her into her face with a 338 00:22:12.440 --> 00:22:17.240 leaf blower so that her mouth would blow back and it would look like and 339 00:22:17.319 --> 00:22:19.559 the headline was faster than you can say half off, you know, which 340 00:22:19.599 --> 00:22:23.400 was kind of like another way into and that actually did a lot better. 341 00:22:23.480 --> 00:22:27.359 That actually doubled our click through rates when we actually ran that, but we 342 00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:30.680 were still right around the higher ed norm and again our goal was to beat 343 00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:36.039 it. So that's when we tried blessed or the Nerty was our major headline, 344 00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:38.400 with the you know, fift off right underneath that, and that thing 345 00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:42.359 did five times better than what our original ad had done. So we kind 346 00:22:42.359 --> 00:22:47.240 of tested our way into it and then once we saw the success of that 347 00:22:47.319 --> 00:22:51.160 and how appealing that was, then we started using it as a key a 348 00:22:51.279 --> 00:22:52.880 key line for us. I will say this, though, it's not without 349 00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:59.160 its detractors. I mean we definitely, we definitely had one parent call in 350 00:22:59.240 --> 00:23:02.400 and be like, Oh, dare you call my kid nerdy? My Kid 351 00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:04.119 does not wanted to referred to as a NERD, you know. So, 352 00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:10.200 uh, we definitely had that. But, um, but obviously that was 353 00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:12.240 few and far between and, as I like to always say, and as 354 00:23:12.279 --> 00:23:17.000 we explained to the campus in the road show, at the end of the 355 00:23:17.079 --> 00:23:19.240 day what we're trying to do is we're trying to be remarkable. And if 356 00:23:19.240 --> 00:23:25.880 you unpack that word remarkable, it's worthy of remark. And why I definitely 357 00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:29.920 don't believe that all PR is good pr I mean bad PR is bad pr 358 00:23:30.119 --> 00:23:33.599 so you don't want that. But if you're turning out things that nobody wants 359 00:23:33.640 --> 00:23:37.680 to talk about, whether good or bad, you're gonna land in that Vanilla 360 00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:41.920 land and that's not where we want to be. So, Um, we 361 00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:45.079 want to be remarkable, hopefully more positives than negatives, and the blessed are 362 00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:49.119 the nerdy line gave us the opportunity to do that and really break through. 363 00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:53.240 That's great. I love that line and I love the fact that you know 364 00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:56.880 that that the whole comment there was remarkable. You're right, I mean giving 365 00:23:56.880 --> 00:24:02.400 people to something to talk about actually in today's segmented world, our culture. 366 00:24:02.440 --> 00:24:03.680 I mean, you know, there's a you know, we thought it was 367 00:24:03.680 --> 00:24:07.119 hard when it was, you know, fifteen cable channels and all the other 368 00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:11.720 things, but I mean there's just unlimited options that people have for their attention 369 00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:15.119 today, and so I think that's great. So thank you. That's awesome. 370 00:24:15.079 --> 00:24:18.519 Yeah, no, I'll tell you just an example. This is from 371 00:24:18.519 --> 00:24:22.720 I think it was from Lale is Chicago. I'll give up credit to other 372 00:24:22.839 --> 00:24:26.200 institutions. Um, one of my very favorite bus transit signs was Um. 373 00:24:26.759 --> 00:24:30.039 was was from them and it had a big headline that said we want you 374 00:24:30.440 --> 00:24:34.160 and then right underneath that it said now go away and you're like what and 375 00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:37.519 when you went in to read the little small print, it was about their 376 00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:41.200 study abroad program. You know so, and I thought that was so clever 377 00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:45.319 because rather than most everybody else is like sent of our kids study abroad or 378 00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:48.680 whatever. You know the you know the status, but the way they did 379 00:24:48.680 --> 00:24:51.519 it, we want you, now go away, caused you to invite you 380 00:24:51.559 --> 00:24:55.119 in. So it's important. So, Kim, if you would, can 381 00:24:55.200 --> 00:25:00.359 you share with US marketing principles, marketing principles that translate across industries and, 382 00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:06.839 in your opinion, ones that do not? Yeah, I mean I definitely 383 00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:10.480 think there's a lot of marketing principles that translate. Um, starting with the 384 00:25:10.519 --> 00:25:14.839 objective in mind, starting with Um, understanding your audience, starting with an 385 00:25:14.920 --> 00:25:19.200 understanding of what causes your audience to move Um as one of our my vp 386 00:25:19.359 --> 00:25:22.319 of consumer insights, used to always say, what do you want the humans 387 00:25:22.359 --> 00:25:26.680 to do? That used to be her phrase, and so answering that question 388 00:25:26.759 --> 00:25:30.000 is one that I think you need to do no matter what industry you find 389 00:25:30.039 --> 00:25:34.279 yourself in. But one of the biggest differences between say like Um, well, 390 00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:37.480 to say like just use a brand like cheerios, versus, say, 391 00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:41.000 like, marketing something like St Thomas. When I was over on the food 392 00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:44.799 side of the business, you know, we were always looking for that one 393 00:25:44.960 --> 00:25:48.640 thing that we could say for our product that nobody else could say about their 394 00:25:48.680 --> 00:25:51.720 products, so that you know, single point of differentiation, if you will, 395 00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:53.400 Um, that you were always trying to get across Um. And when 396 00:25:53.400 --> 00:25:57.400 I came to St Thomas, I was looking for that and realizing that Um 397 00:25:57.519 --> 00:26:03.000 some there. With what is it four thousand, five thousand colleges and universities 398 00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:06.519 across the United States. I mean how difficult is it to find one thing 399 00:26:06.599 --> 00:26:11.279 that only you can say? And so I came to evolve that thinking too. 400 00:26:11.599 --> 00:26:15.039 It's not the one thing, but there is a collection of things that 401 00:26:15.119 --> 00:26:18.799 nobody else can say. So now I think of it as almost like a 402 00:26:18.920 --> 00:26:22.359 cocktail. So we have a unique cocktail that no one else has this same 403 00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:26.119 connection, and so that's Um, it's still the point of trying to be 404 00:26:26.200 --> 00:26:30.240 differentiated, but it's a little bit different in the way in which you go 405 00:26:30.279 --> 00:26:33.720 about it. I also think that from higher ed it's really important as you 406 00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:36.720 think about that differentiation. So it's not only about, like, you know, 407 00:26:36.839 --> 00:26:40.400 your your proof points and your cocktail at proof points, but it's also 408 00:26:40.440 --> 00:26:44.640 about the culture of your institution and then it's about the experience that people have 409 00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:48.880 when they come there. So that whole customer experience part and those three things 410 00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:53.359 kind of coming together are really what creates differentiation within Higher Ed, which is 411 00:26:53.359 --> 00:26:57.200 a little different because not everybody has to think that deeply all the way through 412 00:26:57.640 --> 00:27:00.240 to that Um when they're selling a product. But I think in higher ed 413 00:27:00.279 --> 00:27:03.559 it's important to do that. Yeah, I think you're right. I think 414 00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:07.599 when we interviewed Um Brian Kenney, Chief Marketing Officer at Harvard Business School, 415 00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:10.480 he made a comment. You know, he had been he didn't been incorporate 416 00:27:10.519 --> 00:27:11.960 before higher ed and he was like, you know, I really think that 417 00:27:12.039 --> 00:27:15.319 higher Ed is one of the most difficult things to market. He said, 418 00:27:15.319 --> 00:27:22.200 your your audiences are so much broader, the different types of products and services 419 00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:26.000 that you're offering, that everything there's there's variables that just kind of go on 420 00:27:26.039 --> 00:27:30.160 top of variables, and so I think that's that's really Um interesting. But 421 00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:33.599 I think even the buying process, I mean it's it's one thing for you 422 00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:38.319 know, the historical you know awareness and intent and all all the the typical 423 00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:41.920 funnel that you would have in a marketing funnel, but you know, an 424 00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:45.079 enrollment funnel, you have that in addition to all the steps that they have 425 00:27:45.160 --> 00:27:48.920 to take to actually go from an inquiry all the way to matriculated student. 426 00:27:49.000 --> 00:27:52.559 And so I'm sure that that's part of the challenge that that you found. 427 00:27:52.640 --> 00:27:56.920 Two is is just being able to see the different, um, different elements 428 00:27:56.920 --> 00:28:00.440 that maybe make higher at a little bit different. Yeah, Oh, for 429 00:28:00.519 --> 00:28:03.359 sure. I mean it's like, you know, not that three dollar of 430 00:28:03.440 --> 00:28:07.920 three dollar purchase of a, you know, a bag of snack mix isn't 431 00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:14.240 isn't significant, because I'm not saying that any outlay of cash is never inconsequential, 432 00:28:14.319 --> 00:28:18.640 obviously for somebody, but it just takes a different Um, perhaps mental 433 00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:22.000 set of Um questions that you have to go through. If you're only going 434 00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:23.799 to spend three dollars, you could be like, I'm gonna spend this and 435 00:28:23.799 --> 00:28:26.880 if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But you know you're not going 436 00:28:26.920 --> 00:28:30.319 to lay out the cash, you know, for a higher Ed Education Um 437 00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:33.640 and and there's the impact of that not working out is so much higher, 438 00:28:33.720 --> 00:28:40.400 so that that Um, the funnel then becomes so much longer because people are 439 00:28:40.400 --> 00:28:44.640 trying to make the right decision as they go through it. So really spending 440 00:28:44.680 --> 00:28:48.559 time thinking about the awareness piece of it and are you drawing enough leads into 441 00:28:48.559 --> 00:28:51.000 are there? Are there enough folks that are aware of you that you're getting 442 00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:56.000 enough into your funnel? And then how do you help folks through that consideration 443 00:28:56.119 --> 00:29:00.119 phase where you're trying to give them their information that they're looking for that's going 444 00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:03.119 to help you get onto that short list of schools that they're actually gonna apply 445 00:29:03.200 --> 00:29:07.599 to? Then all the way through to okay, now they've been admitted, 446 00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:10.759 how do you get them all the way through to committing to you? That's 447 00:29:10.839 --> 00:29:15.599 just a much longer process Um than what I was used to, but a 448 00:29:15.720 --> 00:29:18.759 very important process and I think it's important to really kind of understand what Um 449 00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:22.920 and we looked at it from both the student and the prospective student and the 450 00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:29.000 parent perspective just to make sure we're understanding like the emotions, the information needs, 451 00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:30.279 all of that, you know, kind of like all the way through, 452 00:29:30.519 --> 00:29:33.839 although I think it's also really important to remember, and Higher Ed as 453 00:29:33.880 --> 00:29:38.160 well, that there's a lot of impacts on that commitment decision and a lot 454 00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:42.079 of those levers are outside of the control of marketing. You know, we 455 00:29:42.200 --> 00:29:45.559 used to talk about the four PS um. You know, you think about 456 00:29:45.599 --> 00:29:49.480 the product p you know that's not something that marketing is really, you know, 457 00:29:49.960 --> 00:29:53.559 responsible for. That's that academic experience, that's the student experience, kind 458 00:29:53.559 --> 00:29:56.640 of like once you're there. And the other big P is price, right, 459 00:29:56.880 --> 00:30:00.000 Um, you know that is actually one of the biggest Um can be 460 00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:04.119 one of the biggest determinants and how much money your institution is willing to invest 461 00:30:04.119 --> 00:30:10.000 in financial aid as an example. So Um, as goes though those decisions, 462 00:30:10.119 --> 00:30:14.440 often as goes your enrollment numbers, and sometimes it's easy for people to 463 00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:17.920 just poke over at marketing and be like hey, if the enrollment number is 464 00:30:17.960 --> 00:30:22.319 down, you know it's because marketers didn't do their job when maybe also you 465 00:30:22.359 --> 00:30:26.000 cut five million dollars out of the financial aid budget or something else that's bigger. 466 00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:27.480 So what I was always reminding it it's like, well, you don't 467 00:30:27.519 --> 00:30:30.599 know what the opportunity costs of not having that marketing would have been, you 468 00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:33.160 know, like in terms of like how far down that but it is. 469 00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:37.680 That's where again, people's like not understanding, Um, that marketing doesn't own 470 00:30:37.720 --> 00:30:41.880 all of it, and I do think marketing place a really important role in 471 00:30:41.960 --> 00:30:45.200 shaping the narrative and the perception of an institution. So it definitely helps there. 472 00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:48.400 But I just think it's important for everyone to remember that there's other levers 473 00:30:48.440 --> 00:30:52.720 to that are very important and they all have to kind of be working in 474 00:30:52.720 --> 00:30:56.680 the same direction for you to have ultimate success. Right, Kimbeth, you 475 00:30:56.759 --> 00:31:00.440 would is there a piece of advice that you could give our list snerves? 476 00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:08.720 Um? Well, one piece of advice that I would have is about learning 477 00:31:08.799 --> 00:31:15.119 to embrace the constraints that you have, um, because sometimes I think it's 478 00:31:15.160 --> 00:31:18.519 really easy to say, well, I I want to do this, but 479 00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:22.359 I can't do that because of x, Y and Z reason, and I'm 480 00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:29.599 a firm believer that creativity is unlocked in the space in between your ambition and 481 00:31:29.680 --> 00:31:33.039 your resources. And so when your resources are high and you're I'm sorry, 482 00:31:33.079 --> 00:31:37.680 your ambition is high and your resources are lower, in that space is where 483 00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:42.160 creativity unlocked. If your ambition and your resources are right around the same level 484 00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:45.880 or if your resources worse, outstrip your ambition, it's going to kill your 485 00:31:45.880 --> 00:31:51.440 creativity. So, Um, I think that leaning in and embracing constraints is 486 00:31:51.480 --> 00:31:55.519 definitely something that people could do immediately. and Um, one of the best 487 00:31:55.559 --> 00:31:57.640 ted talks that I feel like I ever saw was a talk called embrace the 488 00:31:57.720 --> 00:32:00.680 shake. Um, it's only about a ten minute talk, which is another 489 00:32:00.680 --> 00:32:02.920 reason why it's so great. It's one of the short ones, but it's 490 00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:07.799 all about an artist who did a certain type of work and then was unable 491 00:32:07.839 --> 00:32:09.720 to do that certain kind of work again and had to pivot. Um, 492 00:32:09.799 --> 00:32:14.400 and I've and and it's all about what he learned that, once he embraced 493 00:32:14.839 --> 00:32:19.200 the constraints, it unlocked creativity for him, and I feel like that's something 494 00:32:19.240 --> 00:32:22.079 that we as marketers can definitely also benefit from as well. I mean I 495 00:32:22.119 --> 00:32:27.839 went from like Oh Gosh, marketing budgets with many Zeros after them. In 496 00:32:27.880 --> 00:32:30.640 my general mills world, too much fewer Zeros, you know, in my 497 00:32:30.759 --> 00:32:35.480 higher ed world. And yet, Um, I don't know, good ideas 498 00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:37.880 get funded and if you just put your mind to it, there's there's always 499 00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:42.079 ways to kind of get out there, and I think that that is just 500 00:32:42.119 --> 00:32:45.079 a piece of advice that I would give to anybody. Just embrace your embrace 501 00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:46.920 the shake, as the Ted talk says, or embrace your constraints, because 502 00:32:47.079 --> 00:32:51.920 you'll be better off for it. Kim, thank you very much for your 503 00:32:51.960 --> 00:32:55.880 time, for your wisdom and the interesting way you convey your ideas. It's 504 00:32:55.920 --> 00:33:00.200 been a pleasure to speak with you today. Thank you. I've enjoyed being 505 00:33:00.200 --> 00:33:04.079 on here. I really appreciate your invitation. If someone would like to reach 506 00:33:04.119 --> 00:33:06.960 out and contact you, what would be the best way for them to do 507 00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:10.160 so? Um, best way is through Linkedin. That is my favorite social 508 00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:14.559 platform, and so I'm always happy to have people reach out and say that 509 00:33:14.599 --> 00:33:17.839 they heard the podcast and I can accept them and we can go from there. 510 00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:22.319 You can bart. Would you have any final thoughts that you would like 511 00:33:22.359 --> 00:33:25.519 to share before we end the episode? Yeah, this was just such a 512 00:33:25.519 --> 00:33:29.599 great episode and I would encourage you to rewind and listen to some of this 513 00:33:29.720 --> 00:33:31.000 again, but I just want to point out a couple of things that can 514 00:33:31.000 --> 00:33:36.000 had mentioned that I think are really applicable for anyone at any size school. 515 00:33:36.559 --> 00:33:38.519 Um. Keep in mind that, you know, the job of marketing and 516 00:33:38.799 --> 00:33:42.400 I think that I think some of the illustrations that Kim use would be a 517 00:33:42.400 --> 00:33:45.960 great way for you to communicate to others in your school is to put a 518 00:33:45.960 --> 00:33:49.359 spotlight. You know, it's it's it's amplifying the good things that are going 519 00:33:49.400 --> 00:33:52.279 on, and Kim used that example as as an example of, you know, 520 00:33:52.279 --> 00:33:57.400 some of the challenges that she was receiving on campus about marketing maybe being 521 00:33:57.440 --> 00:34:00.680 unethical or or or less than what we all know it is, but, 522 00:34:00.759 --> 00:34:05.000 you know, just being help, helping people understand that we're putting the spotlight 523 00:34:05.039 --> 00:34:07.280 on, on the stories that need to be told. That will help people 524 00:34:07.360 --> 00:34:10.519 make the decisions that they need to be making. And I think that also 525 00:34:10.599 --> 00:34:14.519 just the idea that I really liked, the idea of the way that Uh 526 00:34:14.840 --> 00:34:19.440 University of St Thomas, Minnesota, spent some time testing blessed are the nerdy 527 00:34:19.960 --> 00:34:22.519 Um. I thought that was a really good way of of kind of looking 528 00:34:22.599 --> 00:34:25.239 at that start with a digital campaign expand that out. I thought that was 529 00:34:25.280 --> 00:34:29.960 really wise. I think as marketers we have a responsibility to use data in 530 00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:31.800 our decision making and I think that that was a really good way to start 531 00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:36.119 that. And I really liked the comment that she made about being remarkable, 532 00:34:36.679 --> 00:34:40.280 the idea of doing something that's going to have people remember you and and have 533 00:34:40.360 --> 00:34:45.320 people talk about you. Um and many times remarkable can, as she pointed 534 00:34:45.320 --> 00:34:47.599 out, can be good or bad. Um often if we do something remarkable, 535 00:34:47.599 --> 00:34:51.440 that we get out of that Vanilla area, we can have something that's 536 00:34:51.440 --> 00:34:53.920 a little bit more worthy of discussion. I think we can all think of, 537 00:34:54.119 --> 00:34:58.400 you know, products or services or schools that we see doing that that 538 00:34:58.400 --> 00:35:00.400 are getting the conversation, that things are happening, that things are, you 539 00:35:00.440 --> 00:35:02.480 know, being talked about, and I think that's a really good way of 540 00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:06.320 doing that. And then I think also, just finally, that last comment 541 00:35:06.360 --> 00:35:09.039 that she made with with the you know, the difference between ambition and resources. 542 00:35:09.079 --> 00:35:13.000 And that's where creativity is. I remember, Um, you know, 543 00:35:13.159 --> 00:35:15.960 consulting, you know consulting in one of my designers several years ago and they 544 00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:20.880 were so frustrated that one of the projects came back and that the client, 545 00:35:20.960 --> 00:35:23.199 you know, put all these constrictions on it and they wanted all these challenges 546 00:35:23.199 --> 00:35:25.800 and he was ready to throw in the Talleng to say I'm done, and 547 00:35:25.840 --> 00:35:30.079 I said, really, this is where this is where your opportunity is, 548 00:35:30.079 --> 00:35:31.760 is to do something totally different. Um, you know, because now you 549 00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:36.039 have boundaries and you have to work within those boundaries. And I think, 550 00:35:36.159 --> 00:35:38.320 you know, I saw him bloom into something that I had never seen. 551 00:35:38.480 --> 00:35:42.599 His creativity fired up, and I think that's exactly what Kim was saying, 552 00:35:42.599 --> 00:35:46.039 and so I really really appreciate that comment and Kim, it's been such a 553 00:35:46.039 --> 00:35:51.159 pleasure to have you on the show. You're welcome back anytime. Oh, 554 00:35:51.199 --> 00:35:55.400 thank you, I appreciate it. The hired marketing podcast is sponsored by Kaylor 555 00:35:55.519 --> 00:36:02.239 solutions and education marketing and branding agency and by thing patented, a marketing execution 556 00:36:02.280 --> 00:36:10.320 company combining print and technology for personalization for Higher Ed Solutions. On behalf of 557 00:36:10.360 --> 00:36:15.400 my co host Bart Taylor, I'm troy singer. Thank you for joining us. 558 00:36:21.920 --> 00:36:24.559 You've been listening to the Higher Ed Marketer. To ensure that you never 559 00:36:24.599 --> 00:36:30.280 miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If 560 00:36:30.280 --> 00:36:32.880 you're listening with apple PODCASTS, we'd love for you to leave a quick rating 561 00:36:32.920 --> 00:36:37.880 of the show. Simply tap the number of stars you think the podcast deserves. 562 00:36:37.599 --> 00:36:38.440 Until next time,