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Aug. 2, 2022

Marketing Principles That Translate Across All Industries

Marketing Principles That Translate Across All Industries

As marketers, we cannot be short-order cooks just serving up dishes, but chefs who figure out what the consumer wants and create a meal.  

Kymm Bartlett Martinez is the Chief Marketing Officer at the American Cancer Society. Before she took over this role, Kymm spent 20 years with General Mills before she took the Chief Marketing Officer position at the University of St. Thomas in Minnesota. Kymm brings an exciting perspective to higher ed marketing with her unique industry experience.  

Join us as we discuss:

  • Kymm’s culture shock of moving from consumer goods marketing to higher education. 
  • Marketing principles that translate across all industries and ones that don’t. 
  • How Higher ed requires multiple points of differentiation to stand out amongst universities. 

The Higher Ed Marketer podcast is sponsored by Caylor Solutions, an Education Marketing and Branding Agency, and by Think Patented, a Marketing Execution, Printing and Mailing provider of Higher Ed solutions.

    

 

Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:06.320 The High Red Marketer podcast is sponsored by the ZEM APP enabling colleges and universities 2 00:00:06.519 --> 00:00:13.960 to engage interested students before they even apply. You're listening to the Higher Ed 3 00:00:14.039 --> 00:00:19.320 Marketer, a podcast geared towards marketing professionals in higher education. This show will 4 00:00:19.320 --> 00:00:24.160 tackle all sorts of questions related to student recruitment, donor relations, marketing trends, 5 00:00:24.199 --> 00:00:28.960 new technologies and so much more. If you're looking for conversations centered around 6 00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:33.159 where the industry is going, this podcast is for you. Let's get into 7 00:00:33.200 --> 00:00:44.640 the show. Welcome to the hired marketer podcast. I'm troy singer and, 8 00:00:44.759 --> 00:00:48.719 as usual, here with my co host Bart Kaylor, and each week we 9 00:00:48.920 --> 00:00:54.000 quest to interview hired marketers that we admire for the benefit and hopefully the betterment 10 00:00:54.079 --> 00:01:00.000 of the entire hired community. I love our conversation with Kim Bartlett Martinez today 11 00:01:00.119 --> 00:01:04.439 because she is someone that has worked in marketing for her entire life. A 12 00:01:04.519 --> 00:01:07.920 big part of that has been in higher reed, but a big part of 13 00:01:07.959 --> 00:01:12.719 it has been outside of Higher Ed, and the perspective she brings is both 14 00:01:12.840 --> 00:01:19.280 interesting but also very resourceful. She has a lot of knowledge that she conveys 15 00:01:19.359 --> 00:01:22.760 within our conversation. Yeah, I think it's it's an incredible opportunity. I 16 00:01:22.760 --> 00:01:26.200 mean we've had a lot of different, different guests on the podcast who have 17 00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:29.959 had a background in corporate and then come into higher read and different things like 18 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:32.359 that. But I think one of the things I really like about what Kim 19 00:01:32.400 --> 00:01:34.560 brings to the table is that, I mean, she was managing major brands 20 00:01:34.599 --> 00:01:38.599 that we all recognize. I mean she worked a big part of her career, 21 00:01:38.599 --> 00:01:41.879 twenty years in general mills, so she was working on, you know, 22 00:01:42.120 --> 00:01:47.719 marketing campaigns for Cheerios, brand manager for Pillsbury, all kinds of things 23 00:01:47.719 --> 00:01:49.959 that were very, very familiar with. But then she took all of that 24 00:01:51.040 --> 00:01:56.719 knowledge and went into the freshly minted chief marketing officer role at University of St 25 00:01:56.719 --> 00:02:00.959 Thomas in Minnesota. And Uh, that's a that's a medium, small to 26 00:02:00.040 --> 00:02:06.359 medium sized private faith based institution. That I think is just amazing story to 27 00:02:06.439 --> 00:02:10.000 talk about how she kind of positioned what she brought to the table and really 28 00:02:10.039 --> 00:02:15.800 made a big impact and move the needle for for that school. And please 29 00:02:15.879 --> 00:02:20.840 know when we first started talking to her she was still at St Thomas, 30 00:02:20.879 --> 00:02:25.199 but now she is the chief marketing officer for the American Cancer Society, but 31 00:02:25.360 --> 00:02:30.680 she lent us her wisdom still and came back and talked about higher red marketing. 32 00:02:30.919 --> 00:02:38.319 So here's our conversation with Kim Bartlett Martinez. It is great to have 33 00:02:38.599 --> 00:02:44.479 Kim as a guest on our podcast and it's funny because when we first approached 34 00:02:44.479 --> 00:02:50.199 her she was a Cmo at the university, but now she is the Cmo 35 00:02:50.360 --> 00:02:53.639 at the American Cancer Society. Kim, thank you for joining us. Uh, 36 00:02:53.759 --> 00:02:57.840 if you would tell us a little bit about your current role, but 37 00:02:57.919 --> 00:03:01.159 then after that we'll back up and we'll follow your journey, the reason why 38 00:03:01.159 --> 00:03:06.439 we're talking to you today. Sure. So I'm currently the two marketing officer, 39 00:03:06.520 --> 00:03:08.680 as you said, for the American Cancer Society. I've been doing that 40 00:03:08.759 --> 00:03:13.319 for all of two and a half months, so it's still relatively new, 41 00:03:13.759 --> 00:03:17.879 Um, and in that role I'm responsible for, uh, stewarding the American 42 00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:23.879 cancer sciety brand, consistently telling the full story of the American cancer study all 43 00:03:23.919 --> 00:03:27.919 the impact that it has. The brand challenge that they have is that a 44 00:03:27.919 --> 00:03:30.080 lot of people have heard of it Um and feel positively about it, but 45 00:03:30.159 --> 00:03:35.280 not a lot of people can actually articulate exactly what the American cancer study does. 46 00:03:35.319 --> 00:03:38.840 So it's a really fun challenge from a marketing standpoint to be a part 47 00:03:38.840 --> 00:03:40.759 of that Um. But before that Um, well, actually, if you 48 00:03:42.159 --> 00:03:46.759 roll all the way back, um I actually started my marketing career at General 49 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:51.199 Mills. I have Um, I have been in marketing my entire my my 50 00:03:51.360 --> 00:03:54.280 entire working life. My in between first and second year of College I was 51 00:03:54.319 --> 00:03:58.199 assigned to a I was working for a bank and they assigned me to the 52 00:03:58.240 --> 00:04:00.960 marketing department and I haven't worked out side marketing since. And so I basically 53 00:04:01.000 --> 00:04:05.960 spent my career then getting a collection of different kinds of marketing experiences and I 54 00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:10.319 started out right out of school in Um, in financial services. That met 55 00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:14.400 life in New York City. Um quickly realized that at the age of twenty 56 00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:17.079 six I felt like I was teaching more than I was learning and I wanted 57 00:04:17.120 --> 00:04:21.160 to actually go work for a place where I could really learn from Um what 58 00:04:21.240 --> 00:04:24.399 I considered to be the best of the best of the craft. So to 59 00:04:24.439 --> 00:04:27.240 do that I had to go back at my m B, a Um, 60 00:04:27.279 --> 00:04:30.480 and then was recruited to work for General Mills, and so spent about twenty 61 00:04:30.519 --> 00:04:34.160 years with General Mills and that was what I would call my classic marketing training. 62 00:04:34.399 --> 00:04:39.439 Um. Big Company, Great Training Program Great People. Um. But 63 00:04:39.519 --> 00:04:43.959 after almost twenty years it was time to think about the next challenge and right 64 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:47.800 around that time the University of St Thomas in Minnesota was looking for its first 65 00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:51.720 ever chief marketing officer. and Um, even though I had not planned at 66 00:04:51.720 --> 00:04:57.319 all to target or go into Higher Ed, Um, the opportunity just seemed 67 00:04:57.399 --> 00:05:00.959 too good to pass up, and it was a chance to build an organization 68 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:03.480 from from the bottom up and to really be part of Um, the Higher 69 00:05:03.560 --> 00:05:08.199 Ed world, which I think has a fantastic mission in terms of educating the 70 00:05:08.240 --> 00:05:12.360 next generation of leaders and so Um. So I joined. I joined them 71 00:05:12.399 --> 00:05:15.399 and was there for about five and a half years before Um and I did 72 00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:19.360 not want to get I did. I was not looking, but this opportunity 73 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:23.199 with the American Cancer Society just tapped me on the shoulder and it was something 74 00:05:23.399 --> 00:05:26.439 I couldn't say no to. And I feel like my whole career, everything 75 00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:29.879 I've done at general mills, everything I did at the University of St Thomas, 76 00:05:29.879 --> 00:05:31.800 prepared me for the role I have now and in fact I don't think 77 00:05:31.879 --> 00:05:35.839 I would have been able to do this job without St Thomas or without General 78 00:05:35.879 --> 00:05:39.879 Mills. That's great. That's great and I think it's interesting and I was. 79 00:05:40.120 --> 00:05:42.680 I I have a mixed career as well that I did a lot in 80 00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:46.680 corporate and and now focused in on the Higher Ed but I always think it's 81 00:05:46.680 --> 00:05:49.120 interesting and I'd like to get your take because I think sometimes, you know, 82 00:05:49.199 --> 00:05:53.800 fifteen, twenty years ago, uh, the word marketing was something that's 83 00:05:53.800 --> 00:05:58.720 a little bit taboo when you would talk in academic circles. How did you 84 00:05:59.079 --> 00:06:01.040 I mean, what was your impression, you know, coming straight out of 85 00:06:01.120 --> 00:06:05.439 a large corporate you know, managing some major brands, into a place that 86 00:06:05.519 --> 00:06:11.879 maybe saw marketing a little differently than you did? Well, it was a 87 00:06:11.879 --> 00:06:16.120 culture shock because in the consumer packaged goods world, you know, marketing is 88 00:06:16.360 --> 00:06:18.639 the center of the wheel, as we always like to say. So it 89 00:06:18.720 --> 00:06:23.560 is the decision maker, it is where General Management and marketing are merged together. 90 00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:26.800 Um. So you do have a lot of positional power, I guess, 91 00:06:26.839 --> 00:06:30.240 I will say, in terms of being able to Um lead change there 92 00:06:30.360 --> 00:06:33.439 and going from that environment, where nobody questions the value of marketing, into 93 00:06:33.480 --> 00:06:39.279 the Higher Ed environment where it wasn't that people, Um didn't see the value 94 00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:42.079 of marketing, but they had a couple of questions about it. Like so, 95 00:06:42.120 --> 00:06:45.600 for example, on my Um, my initial team I had, I 96 00:06:45.680 --> 00:06:48.720 had a several journalists and, you know, as their training, journalists Um 97 00:06:48.720 --> 00:06:53.560 in journalism school. That's all about being objective and it's all about putting the 98 00:06:53.560 --> 00:06:56.879 facts out there so that people can draw, you know, their own conclusions, 99 00:06:57.000 --> 00:07:00.480 and so I definitely had there was some skepticism with a mark are coming 100 00:07:00.519 --> 00:07:04.319 in that Um. Actually, even the word unethical was one that I heard 101 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:08.839 used, which I thought was so strange because never in my career have I 102 00:07:08.879 --> 00:07:13.480 ever felt like I've either asked or done anything unethical, um. And I 103 00:07:13.480 --> 00:07:15.720 I then tried to get to the root of where that was coming from, 104 00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:18.639 and it turned out it came from again, this belief that possibly marketers are 105 00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:23.160 spinners and that they're not going to tell you the full truth, Um. 106 00:07:23.279 --> 00:07:27.480 And so from that that there were some folks that felt that that was unethical 107 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:30.480 and I had to just say, well, we can agree to disagree, 108 00:07:30.519 --> 00:07:32.519 but here's the way I look at it. I think of marketers as people. 109 00:07:32.560 --> 00:07:38.079 We have spotlights to shine and we get to decide where we shine those 110 00:07:38.120 --> 00:07:41.680 spotlights and we're going to shine those, obviously in the place that tells the 111 00:07:41.680 --> 00:07:44.800 best story for the institution. But that doesn't mean we're going to be dishonest 112 00:07:44.839 --> 00:07:48.199 about other aspects of us. And nowadays you can find pretty much every piece 113 00:07:48.199 --> 00:07:50.680 of information you want on the web anyway. So whether I tell you or 114 00:07:50.680 --> 00:07:54.759 not, you're going to be able to go find it. So Um, 115 00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:59.240 that was that was one hurdle, just having to make sure that folks felt 116 00:07:59.240 --> 00:08:01.279 comfortable with Um, with marketers, um. And so what I had to 117 00:08:01.319 --> 00:08:05.839 do there is just be really, really clear with the team and as we 118 00:08:05.839 --> 00:08:09.120 were forming, that this was a marketing bus. You know, and I 119 00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:13.759 think about Um Jim Collins and the words and his words from that wonderful book 120 00:08:13.800 --> 00:08:16.079 good to great, and he talks about you know just where the bus is 121 00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:18.959 going and you've got to get the right people on the bus. And I 122 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:22.639 said to my team, I said, well, this is where our bus 123 00:08:22.680 --> 00:08:26.079 is going. It's a marketing bus and you can get on it or not. 124 00:08:26.279 --> 00:08:28.480 That's fine, um, but um, but this is a marketing bus 125 00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:31.440 and I would encourage if you don't feel that that alligns with your values, 126 00:08:31.519 --> 00:08:35.919 to not necessarily do that. Not Don't get on it. From the beginning. 127 00:08:35.159 --> 00:08:39.240 The other the other thing, Um, just with regard to marketing and 128 00:08:39.320 --> 00:08:43.039 Higher Ed was this notion of Um, do you really need to sell the 129 00:08:43.039 --> 00:08:46.600 product? Shouldn't the products sell itself? I mean it's if it's good enough. 130 00:08:46.840 --> 00:08:48.200 Um. You know, do we really need to go out and kind 131 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:50.759 of tell people about it? And, you know, to that end, 132 00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:54.559 I was like, well, you know, Cheerios is the number one serial 133 00:08:54.679 --> 00:08:56.559 in the United States and yeah, we spend an awful lot of money marketing 134 00:08:56.639 --> 00:09:00.360 Cheerios to remind people that it's out there, even though it's a fan tastic 135 00:09:00.440 --> 00:09:03.279 products. So it's one of those things just reminding people of the importance of 136 00:09:03.519 --> 00:09:09.120 Um, breaking through and building awareness. And in St Thomas's case, we 137 00:09:09.200 --> 00:09:13.000 definitely did have an awareness issue outside of our region, where we're very well 138 00:09:13.039 --> 00:09:16.960 known, but Um, you know, outside of Minnesota in the Upper Midwest, 139 00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:18.799 we had some room to grow. So just trying to make the case 140 00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:24.080 for why marketing would make sense Um and just building trust over time. It 141 00:09:24.159 --> 00:09:26.320 was the kind of thing like I can say all of these things, but 142 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:28.159 then obviously people are going to judge us more on the basis of what we 143 00:09:28.240 --> 00:09:31.279 do and the results that we get. Um So it was. It was 144 00:09:31.320 --> 00:09:33.840 about building trust, though, from the beginning. Yeah, and I think 145 00:09:33.879 --> 00:09:37.200 that that's such a such a key element. I want to come back to 146 00:09:37.240 --> 00:09:37.960 that in a second, but I think that one of the things too, 147 00:09:37.960 --> 00:09:43.200 that I at least when I am on college campuses and working with marketing departments, 148 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:46.759 and and even sometimes when they don't have a marketing department, but I'm 149 00:09:46.759 --> 00:09:52.240 working with enrollment like really small schools, having them understand that there's a difference 150 00:09:52.279 --> 00:09:56.440 between checking boxes off a task list and and, you know, and and 151 00:09:56.480 --> 00:10:01.559 the types of people that you have doing it, versus true marketing. I 152 00:10:01.559 --> 00:10:05.000 mean, I think even in our in our initial conversations, you kind of 153 00:10:05.039 --> 00:10:07.159 talked about project managers versus marketers. So tell me a little bit about that. 154 00:10:07.279 --> 00:10:13.240 Yes, yes, yes, Um, and I actually see that to 155 00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:16.799 some extent in the organization that I'm in today. So I actually don't necessarily 156 00:10:16.840 --> 00:10:22.159 see that as an issue specifically for higher ed but Um, because I think 157 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:26.279 there's lots of different flavors of marketing out there. Um, I think that 158 00:10:26.320 --> 00:10:31.360 not everybody understands the strategic value that a marketer can bring, and so one 159 00:10:31.399 --> 00:10:33.919 thing that we worked hard to do when we were forming our team at St 160 00:10:33.919 --> 00:10:39.279 Thomas was to make sure we set the expectation were strategic partners and actually deliberately 161 00:10:39.360 --> 00:10:43.240 did not call the schools and the colleges that we worked with clients, because 162 00:10:43.320 --> 00:10:46.559 that would have implied that I had to do whatever they asked me to do 163 00:10:46.600 --> 00:10:50.279 because I was their client and they were, you know, paying the bills. 164 00:10:50.279 --> 00:10:54.159 Boar. We specifically said what we were partners and, Um, you 165 00:10:54.159 --> 00:10:56.360 know, and in that means, um I, when you come to me 166 00:10:56.440 --> 00:11:00.120 with a with an issue, please don't come to me and say I need 167 00:11:00.200 --> 00:11:03.960 a video that does this or I need I want, I want a flyer 168 00:11:03.080 --> 00:11:07.799 that has this picture and these bullets and this headline. Go make that. 169 00:11:07.279 --> 00:11:09.519 Um. What I want to know is what are you trying to do? 170 00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:13.799 What audience are you trying to reach? What do you already know about this 171 00:11:13.879 --> 00:11:16.840 audience in terms of messages that would be you know, that would move them 172 00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:22.039 to act? And then let me take this back to my team and let's 173 00:11:22.240 --> 00:11:24.120 let us come back to you with what we think would be the way to 174 00:11:24.159 --> 00:11:28.240 solve that problem that you're having in the way that makes the most sense, 175 00:11:28.279 --> 00:11:31.919 either from a budget standpoint or from an impact standpoint. And so it was 176 00:11:31.960 --> 00:11:37.480 about Um learning to be in that strategic partnership Um. That actually was something 177 00:11:37.559 --> 00:11:43.960 that we had to get the university aware that this was how we were going 178 00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:48.279 to be Um acting in moving forward. So again it required some open mindedness 179 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:52.600 on the part of our partners. So in the beginning we had to give 180 00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:56.240 people, the folks on our internal team, permission to be able to be 181 00:11:56.320 --> 00:12:03.159 strategic and permission to say no to what was essentially coming in as really tactical 182 00:12:03.799 --> 00:12:09.279 requests and to permission to ask to have that more strategic conversation with the partners. 183 00:12:09.320 --> 00:12:13.279 And then for our partners, we had to make sure that they understood, 184 00:12:13.279 --> 00:12:16.039 hey, we're going to come at you perhaps with some different ideas and 185 00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:18.320 some different thoughts than what you came to us with, and what we need 186 00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:22.919 you to do is to be open minded about that. Yeah, I think 187 00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:26.399 I think that reminds me a little bit about a conversation that we had with 188 00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:31.080 Ethan Braden at Perdue University. He kind of called at the difference of being 189 00:12:31.080 --> 00:12:33.759 a short order cook versus a chef. You know, the idea that that 190 00:12:33.799 --> 00:12:37.080 you know, we can take short order cook orders all day long and just 191 00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:41.840 do what everybody wants that's not really marketing, that's actually just, you know, 192 00:12:41.879 --> 00:12:45.000 serving up a dish, or we can actually find out what they want 193 00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:48.159 and what they need and create a meal. So that's a great, great 194 00:12:48.159 --> 00:13:18.080 point. Yeah, no, that's definitely right, and it was actually funny 195 00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:22.039 because when I first got to the university and I was thinking about roles and 196 00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:26.000 responsibilities and who would have final authority and final accountability, you know, initially 197 00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:28.519 I had thought, when I was working with the deans or even, you 198 00:13:28.519 --> 00:13:33.440 know, in the center of the university, that Um, those business owners 199 00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:37.240 would have responsibility for the strategies, right, and they would actually tell us 200 00:13:37.279 --> 00:13:39.759 then these are our strategies, these are objectives, and then we would actually 201 00:13:39.799 --> 00:13:43.080 go to work on those. But then I, as the CMO, would 202 00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:46.679 have final say over the creative Um and would be able to say this is 203 00:13:46.679 --> 00:13:50.679 what I think you should do. And what I quickly realized as we started 204 00:13:50.720 --> 00:13:54.039 all working together, that I absolutely wanted to say in their strategies, because 205 00:13:54.039 --> 00:13:58.840 I didn't always love the way the strategies were given over and I thought that 206 00:14:00.039 --> 00:14:03.679 actually we added a lot of value to our partners, our schools and college 207 00:14:03.720 --> 00:14:05.919 partners, by asking some of the questions that we did Um. They weren't 208 00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:11.600 always um in conversations where they were really thinking, you know, about what 209 00:14:11.639 --> 00:14:15.399 they were trying to do. So in that regard I felt like we were 210 00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:18.919 adding a lot of value to them in terms of pushing their thinking on the 211 00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:20.480 strategic front a little bit more. And then, at the end of the 212 00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:24.200 day too, I also wasn't going to make them run a piece of creative 213 00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:26.440 that they hated or that they didn't believe in. So I was like, 214 00:14:26.440 --> 00:14:30.559 okay, fine, we'll share responsibility on the strategy side and we can also 215 00:14:30.600 --> 00:14:33.600 share on the creative side too. So I what I learned, and this 216 00:14:33.639 --> 00:14:35.600 was kind of a theme with Higher Ed, that nothing is like as black 217 00:14:35.639 --> 00:14:39.480 and white is maybe it might have been when I was at general mills in 218 00:14:39.559 --> 00:14:43.600 terms of approvals. It was much more of a blend, Um, a 219 00:14:43.759 --> 00:14:46.720 gray that actually I came to really embrace and really like and felt like we 220 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:52.480 got to Um really great places because of that gray, because we weren't pushing 221 00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:54.240 to the black or the white right from the very beginning. So it came 222 00:14:54.279 --> 00:14:58.159 to be something I really appreciated. We talk a lot about it on the 223 00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:01.399 show. Schools are really struggling today. That makes the same at spend work. 224 00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:07.080 CPMS are up eight year over year on facebook and instagram. Our College 225 00:15:07.120 --> 00:15:11.639 clients are no longer looking for rented audiences. They're looking for an owned community 226 00:15:11.639 --> 00:15:16.799 where they can engage students even before they apply. This is why Zemi has 227 00:15:16.840 --> 00:15:20.240 become so crucial for our clients, with over one million students, close to 228 00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:24.879 ten thousand five star ratings, consistently ranked as one of the top social lapps 229 00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:30.519 and recently one of Apple's hot APPs of the week. There simply isn't anything 230 00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:33.600 out there like it, and we have seen it all. Ze Me not 231 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:37.919 only provides the best space for student engagement, but the most unique and action 232 00:15:37.960 --> 00:15:43.440 wal data for their one sixty college and university partners. We know firsthand from 233 00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:46.440 our clients that Ze me is a must have strategy for Gen Z. Check 234 00:15:46.519 --> 00:15:52.840 them out now at colleges dot Zem dot com. That's colleges dot Z E 235 00:15:54.360 --> 00:15:58.679 M E dot Com. And yes, tell them which has to change over. 236 00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:03.480 When you came to be, I believe you took the road show to 237 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:07.960 the rest of the campus to kind of convey this. How did that go? 238 00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:12.519 Can you kind of describe how how that went? Yeah, yeah, 239 00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:17.919 that idea came about because, as I was saying, we needed to train, 240 00:16:18.120 --> 00:16:19.840 if you will, the university to work with US differently, because it 241 00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:23.679 was a completely different team, it was a completely different strategy, completely different 242 00:16:23.679 --> 00:16:27.559 philosophy, and so we needed a way to help people understand what it was 243 00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:30.039 that we were trying to do. So that gave rise to the idea of 244 00:16:30.039 --> 00:16:33.639 this road show that we did, and we did it not only with all 245 00:16:33.639 --> 00:16:36.840 the schools and colleges, but we also did it with all the internal departments, 246 00:16:36.919 --> 00:16:38.840 you know, the Finance Group, Um, you know, development, 247 00:16:40.120 --> 00:16:44.000 anyone who might want to know about marketing. We were happy to kind of 248 00:16:44.039 --> 00:16:47.240 come in and tell our story and, Um, as part of this we 249 00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:49.879 covered, um, what our creative vision was and actually, even before that, 250 00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:55.000 why we needed to have a creative vision. Um, pointing out that 251 00:16:55.320 --> 00:16:59.279 there is a sea of Vanilla in Higher Ed Marketing. In fact, there's 252 00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:00.799 even a book on it. It's called three in a tree, you know, 253 00:17:00.840 --> 00:17:04.920 which is like we're just saying that basically, you look at Higher Ed 254 00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:07.960 pictures, there'll be three students and usually under a tree. You know, 255 00:17:08.039 --> 00:17:11.279 that's like your traditional kind of like higher ed look and feel, and so 256 00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:15.960 we needed to explain to people why it was we needed to break through, 257 00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:21.240 what the importance of breakthrough meant. Um, and then Um, the skill 258 00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:23.559 set that we had to go against that. Um, how we were going 259 00:17:23.559 --> 00:17:27.440 to be working differently. Um, how do you even give good creative feedback? 260 00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:30.799 You know, we had a whole slew of folks that, you know, 261 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:33.000 when you showed them creative would say, well, I'm not sure I 262 00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:37.079 really like the color red or something like that, which not super strategic in 263 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:38.519 that so we had to kind of encourage people to know, you've got to 264 00:17:38.519 --> 00:17:41.519 go deeper than that, Um and come up with Um. You know. 265 00:17:41.559 --> 00:17:45.720 So, what is it that you're reacting to here? Um, that actually 266 00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:48.880 might be something that would cause us to think a little bit differently about this 267 00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:55.079 piece of creative so we also address the issue of Um. You know, 268 00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:57.559 some books were thinking this is higher Ed, this is a very expensive purchase, 269 00:17:57.640 --> 00:18:00.480 a very expensive purchase. You know, you can't use humor. You 270 00:18:00.519 --> 00:18:04.640 have to be really serious because this is a really serious um purchase. And 271 00:18:04.680 --> 00:18:08.839 so we actually took examples from others. We we well, since we were 272 00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:12.559 a Catholic, a faith based institution, we actually took examples from the Catholic 273 00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:18.759 Church of times when they've tried to go after different audiences and used Um more 274 00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:21.920 humorous means of doing it. We have a really terrific example of that in 275 00:18:21.960 --> 00:18:25.480 our own backyard here in Minneapolis that we were able to show people, as 276 00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:29.240 well as other universities that had broken through by using Um, you know, 277 00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:32.079 just really fun different ways of talking about it. So and that way we 278 00:18:32.119 --> 00:18:34.839 tried to build the case for why it was Um that we needed to work 279 00:18:34.839 --> 00:18:37.279 differently and then how we were going to work differently, and then we ran 280 00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:41.519 through our areas. Um at St Thomas. Our group is called marketing, 281 00:18:41.559 --> 00:18:45.200 insights and communications, so it's called Mike for Short, and I know that's 282 00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:48.920 a little unusual because usually you're either marketing or maybe your Mark Holm, but 283 00:18:49.000 --> 00:18:53.799 we very deliberately um named our group marketing, insights and communications, because that 284 00:18:53.880 --> 00:18:56.839 insights part. We didn't want that to get lost. And again, just 285 00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:00.799 wanted to make sure that every campaign, every thing that we were doing started 286 00:19:00.920 --> 00:19:04.599 on an insight, Um, an empathy building for who we were trying to 287 00:19:04.640 --> 00:19:08.160 talk to, and so we explained that as part of the road show as 288 00:19:08.200 --> 00:19:11.279 well. Why was it so important that that insights be part of Our Name? 289 00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:15.759 I think that's great and I think that the effort of doing that road 290 00:19:15.799 --> 00:19:19.200 show probably gained you some some street cred, if you will. I mean 291 00:19:19.319 --> 00:19:23.759 because you're inviting everyone in for the conversation. But going back to that, 292 00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:26.359 one of those comments that you made just a moment ago is that idea of 293 00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:30.640 utilizing humor and utilizing some things. And I've done a lot of work in 294 00:19:30.680 --> 00:19:34.680 faith based too, and sometimes I know that there's that that seriousness and and 295 00:19:34.680 --> 00:19:37.920 and a little bit of that is uh, you know, there there there 296 00:19:37.960 --> 00:19:41.279 tends to be some hesitancy on that. Tell me a little bit about one 297 00:19:41.279 --> 00:19:44.599 of the creatives you came up with, and I think we talked about this 298 00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:48.400 earlier. That, I think is brilliant and I think it kind of illustrates 299 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:52.759 this this this point for you. Yeah, so Um at St Thomas Um, 300 00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:56.680 one of the strategic objectives that we had was just reminding everybody about our 301 00:19:56.720 --> 00:20:02.440 academic credentials and making sure of the academic excellence was something that was very core 302 00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:06.559 to who we were and what we what we did. Um, again, 303 00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:10.799 also a faith based institution, but we also knew from research that sometimes people 304 00:20:10.839 --> 00:20:14.599 were nervous about that because they thought that maybe they'd come to St Thomas and 305 00:20:14.599 --> 00:20:18.079 we would try and convert them to Catholicism or something like that. So we 306 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:22.799 knew to Um that the faith part of what we did was important to whole 307 00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:26.720 person formation and was very attractive to parents and students when we talked about it 308 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:30.559 in terms of character formation in general. Um, whether you were Catholic or 309 00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:33.799 not, that was appealing and so we were looking for something that would thread 310 00:20:33.799 --> 00:20:37.000 the needle there and what we came up with, our our head creative Pete 311 00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:41.960 Winnicky, came up with was this line blessed are the Nerdy, which in 312 00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:45.039 my mind was just this perfect encapsulation of the strategy that we were trying to 313 00:20:45.079 --> 00:20:48.480 employ, where the blessed are the you know, you get a little bit 314 00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:52.160 of that nod to the religious faith based and then, of course, the 315 00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:55.920 nerdy nods to the academic excellence kind of like piece of it. So it's 316 00:20:55.960 --> 00:20:59.079 a little bit of a tongue in cheek thing and um I loved it when 317 00:20:59.079 --> 00:21:02.240 I first saw it, but I was actually nervous about it because I wasn't 318 00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:04.720 sure where the line was on church humor in terms of whether we put that 319 00:21:04.759 --> 00:21:08.200 out into the world. So we did what we often do at St Thomas 320 00:21:08.279 --> 00:21:11.519 when we're faced with people who have differences in point of views. We took 321 00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:17.400 the risk UM and made it smaller and decided to put it in market just 322 00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:19.000 to test, to see how it would react. I mean, and by 323 00:21:19.079 --> 00:21:22.720 smaller I mean not splashing it on a big TV campaign right out of the 324 00:21:22.759 --> 00:21:27.519 gates, but we tried it in a digital campaign actually that we were we 325 00:21:27.559 --> 00:21:32.559 had just lowered our summer tuition by fifty percent. It was like right up, 326 00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:34.279 you know, I got there in the fall and then we had decided 327 00:21:34.279 --> 00:21:37.839 that we were going to discount summer tuition by but in order to do that 328 00:21:37.880 --> 00:21:41.880 effectively, we then needed to of course, double the amount of credits that 329 00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:44.480 people were taking in order to be able to break through. And it was 330 00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:47.400 one of the first big assignments that the provost had given to me, you 331 00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:49.400 know, as part of our new marketing department. And at first we tried 332 00:21:49.480 --> 00:21:52.000 to have we had the three in the tree ads, you know, with 333 00:21:52.039 --> 00:21:56.440 the kids laying on the grass like kind of with fifty percent off summer tuition, 334 00:21:56.880 --> 00:22:00.279 and we did it digitally and the click through rates were actually below um 335 00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:03.480 the average of the higher ed norm. So like okay, this isn't working. 336 00:22:03.960 --> 00:22:07.640 Um. So then we played around with some visuals where we literally took 337 00:22:07.640 --> 00:22:12.359 one of our students into our studio and blew her into her face with a 338 00:22:12.440 --> 00:22:17.240 leaf blower so that her mouth would blow back and it would look like and 339 00:22:17.319 --> 00:22:19.559 the headline was faster than you can say half off, you know, which 340 00:22:19.599 --> 00:22:23.400 was kind of like another way into and that actually did a lot better. 341 00:22:23.480 --> 00:22:27.359 That actually doubled our click through rates when we actually ran that, but we 342 00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:30.680 were still right around the higher ed norm and again our goal was to beat 343 00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:36.039 it. So that's when we tried blessed or the Nerty was our major headline, 344 00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:38.400 with the you know, fift off right underneath that, and that thing 345 00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:42.359 did five times better than what our original ad had done. So we kind 346 00:22:42.359 --> 00:22:47.240 of tested our way into it and then once we saw the success of that 347 00:22:47.319 --> 00:22:51.160 and how appealing that was, then we started using it as a key a 348 00:22:51.279 --> 00:22:52.880 key line for us. I will say this, though, it's not without 349 00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:59.160 its detractors. I mean we definitely, we definitely had one parent call in 350 00:22:59.240 --> 00:23:02.400 and be like, Oh, dare you call my kid nerdy? My Kid 351 00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:04.119 does not wanted to referred to as a NERD, you know. So, 352 00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:10.200 uh, we definitely had that. But, um, but obviously that was 353 00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:12.240 few and far between and, as I like to always say, and as 354 00:23:12.279 --> 00:23:17.000 we explained to the campus in the road show, at the end of the 355 00:23:17.079 --> 00:23:19.240 day what we're trying to do is we're trying to be remarkable. And if 356 00:23:19.240 --> 00:23:25.880 you unpack that word remarkable, it's worthy of remark. And why I definitely 357 00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:29.920 don't believe that all PR is good pr I mean bad PR is bad pr 358 00:23:30.119 --> 00:23:33.599 so you don't want that. But if you're turning out things that nobody wants 359 00:23:33.640 --> 00:23:37.680 to talk about, whether good or bad, you're gonna land in that Vanilla 360 00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:41.920 land and that's not where we want to be. So, Um, we 361 00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:45.079 want to be remarkable, hopefully more positives than negatives, and the blessed are 362 00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:49.119 the nerdy line gave us the opportunity to do that and really break through. 363 00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:53.240 That's great. I love that line and I love the fact that you know 364 00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:56.880 that that the whole comment there was remarkable. You're right, I mean giving 365 00:23:56.880 --> 00:24:02.400 people to something to talk about actually in today's segmented world, our culture. 366 00:24:02.440 --> 00:24:03.680 I mean, you know, there's a you know, we thought it was 367 00:24:03.680 --> 00:24:07.119 hard when it was, you know, fifteen cable channels and all the other 368 00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:11.720 things, but I mean there's just unlimited options that people have for their attention 369 00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:15.119 today, and so I think that's great. So thank you. That's awesome. 370 00:24:15.079 --> 00:24:18.519 Yeah, no, I'll tell you just an example. This is from 371 00:24:18.519 --> 00:24:22.720 I think it was from Lale is Chicago. I'll give up credit to other 372 00:24:22.839 --> 00:24:26.200 institutions. Um, one of my very favorite bus transit signs was Um. 373 00:24:26.759 --> 00:24:30.039 was was from them and it had a big headline that said we want you 374 00:24:30.440 --> 00:24:34.160 and then right underneath that it said now go away and you're like what and 375 00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:37.519 when you went in to read the little small print, it was about their 376 00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:41.200 study abroad program. You know so, and I thought that was so clever 377 00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:45.319 because rather than most everybody else is like sent of our kids study abroad or 378 00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:48.680 whatever. You know the you know the status, but the way they did 379 00:24:48.680 --> 00:24:51.519 it, we want you, now go away, caused you to invite you 380 00:24:51.559 --> 00:24:55.119 in. So it's important. So, Kim, if you would, can 381 00:24:55.200 --> 00:25:00.359 you share with US marketing principles, marketing principles that translate across industries and, 382 00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:06.839 in your opinion, ones that do not? Yeah, I mean I definitely 383 00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:10.480 think there's a lot of marketing principles that translate. Um, starting with the 384 00:25:10.519 --> 00:25:14.839 objective in mind, starting with Um, understanding your audience, starting with an 385 00:25:14.920 --> 00:25:19.200 understanding of what causes your audience to move Um as one of our my vp 386 00:25:19.359 --> 00:25:22.319 of consumer insights, used to always say, what do you want the humans 387 00:25:22.359 --> 00:25:26.680 to do? That used to be her phrase, and so answering that question 388 00:25:26.759 --> 00:25:30.000 is one that I think you need to do no matter what industry you find 389 00:25:30.039 --> 00:25:34.279 yourself in. But one of the biggest differences between say like Um, well, 390 00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:37.480 to say like just use a brand like cheerios, versus, say, 391 00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:41.000 like, marketing something like St Thomas. When I was over on the food 392 00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:44.799 side of the business, you know, we were always looking for that one 393 00:25:44.960 --> 00:25:48.640 thing that we could say for our product that nobody else could say about their 394 00:25:48.680 --> 00:25:51.720 products, so that you know, single point of differentiation, if you will, 395 00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:53.400 Um, that you were always trying to get across Um. And when 396 00:25:53.400 --> 00:25:57.400 I came to St Thomas, I was looking for that and realizing that Um 397 00:25:57.519 --> 00:26:03.000 some there. With what is it four thousand, five thousand colleges and universities 398 00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:06.519 across the United States. I mean how difficult is it to find one thing 399 00:26:06.599 --> 00:26:11.279 that only you can say? And so I came to evolve that thinking too. 400 00:26:11.599 --> 00:26:15.039 It's not the one thing, but there is a collection of things that 401 00:26:15.119 --> 00:26:18.799 nobody else can say. So now I think of it as almost like a 402 00:26:18.920 --> 00:26:22.359 cocktail. So we have a unique cocktail that no one else has this same 403 00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:26.119 connection, and so that's Um, it's still the point of trying to be 404 00:26:26.200 --> 00:26:30.240 differentiated, but it's a little bit different in the way in which you go 405 00:26:30.279 --> 00:26:33.720 about it. I also think that from higher ed it's really important as you 406 00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:36.720 think about that differentiation. So it's not only about, like, you know, 407 00:26:36.839 --> 00:26:40.400 your your proof points and your cocktail at proof points, but it's also 408 00:26:40.440 --> 00:26:44.640 about the culture of your institution and then it's about the experience that people have 409 00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:48.880 when they come there. So that whole customer experience part and those three things 410 00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:53.359 kind of coming together are really what creates differentiation within Higher Ed, which is 411 00:26:53.359 --> 00:26:57.200 a little different because not everybody has to think that deeply all the way through 412 00:26:57.640 --> 00:27:00.240 to that Um when they're selling a product. But I think in higher ed 413 00:27:00.279 --> 00:27:03.559 it's important to do that. Yeah, I think you're right. I think 414 00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:07.599 when we interviewed Um Brian Kenney, Chief Marketing Officer at Harvard Business School, 415 00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:10.480 he made a comment. You know, he had been he didn't been incorporate 416 00:27:10.519 --> 00:27:11.960 before higher ed and he was like, you know, I really think that 417 00:27:12.039 --> 00:27:15.319 higher Ed is one of the most difficult things to market. He said, 418 00:27:15.319 --> 00:27:22.200 your your audiences are so much broader, the different types of products and services 419 00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:26.000 that you're offering, that everything there's there's variables that just kind of go on 420 00:27:26.039 --> 00:27:30.160 top of variables, and so I think that's that's really Um interesting. But 421 00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:33.599 I think even the buying process, I mean it's it's one thing for you 422 00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:38.319 know, the historical you know awareness and intent and all all the the typical 423 00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:41.920 funnel that you would have in a marketing funnel, but you know, an 424 00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:45.079 enrollment funnel, you have that in addition to all the steps that they have 425 00:27:45.160 --> 00:27:48.920 to take to actually go from an inquiry all the way to matriculated student. 426 00:27:49.000 --> 00:27:52.559 And so I'm sure that that's part of the challenge that that you found. 427 00:27:52.640 --> 00:27:56.920 Two is is just being able to see the different, um, different elements 428 00:27:56.920 --> 00:28:00.440 that maybe make higher at a little bit different. Yeah, Oh, for 429 00:28:00.519 --> 00:28:03.359 sure. I mean it's like, you know, not that three dollar of 430 00:28:03.440 --> 00:28:07.920 three dollar purchase of a, you know, a bag of snack mix isn't 431 00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:14.240 isn't significant, because I'm not saying that any outlay of cash is never inconsequential, 432 00:28:14.319 --> 00:28:18.640 obviously for somebody, but it just takes a different Um, perhaps mental 433 00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:22.000 set of Um questions that you have to go through. If you're only going 434 00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:23.799 to spend three dollars, you could be like, I'm gonna spend this and 435 00:28:23.799 --> 00:28:26.880 if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But you know you're not going 436 00:28:26.920 --> 00:28:30.319 to lay out the cash, you know, for a higher Ed Education Um 437 00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:33.640 and and there's the impact of that not working out is so much higher, 438 00:28:33.720 --> 00:28:40.400 so that that Um, the funnel then becomes so much longer because people are 439 00:28:40.400 --> 00:28:44.640 trying to make the right decision as they go through it. So really spending 440 00:28:44.680 --> 00:28:48.559 time thinking about the awareness piece of it and are you drawing enough leads into 441 00:28:48.559 --> 00:28:51.000 are there? Are there enough folks that are aware of you that you're getting 442 00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:56.000 enough into your funnel? And then how do you help folks through that consideration 443 00:28:56.119 --> 00:29:00.119 phase where you're trying to give them their information that they're looking for that's going 444 00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:03.119 to help you get onto that short list of schools that they're actually gonna apply 445 00:29:03.200 --> 00:29:07.599 to? Then all the way through to okay, now they've been admitted, 446 00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:10.759 how do you get them all the way through to committing to you? That's 447 00:29:10.839 --> 00:29:15.599 just a much longer process Um than what I was used to, but a 448 00:29:15.720 --> 00:29:18.759 very important process and I think it's important to really kind of understand what Um 449 00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:22.920 and we looked at it from both the student and the prospective student and the 450 00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:29.000 parent perspective just to make sure we're understanding like the emotions, the information needs, 451 00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:30.279 all of that, you know, kind of like all the way through, 452 00:29:30.519 --> 00:29:33.839 although I think it's also really important to remember, and Higher Ed as 453 00:29:33.880 --> 00:29:38.160 well, that there's a lot of impacts on that commitment decision and a lot 454 00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:42.079 of those levers are outside of the control of marketing. You know, we 455 00:29:42.200 --> 00:29:45.559 used to talk about the four PS um. You know, you think about 456 00:29:45.599 --> 00:29:49.480 the product p you know that's not something that marketing is really, you know, 457 00:29:49.960 --> 00:29:53.559 responsible for. That's that academic experience, that's the student experience, kind 458 00:29:53.559 --> 00:29:56.640 of like once you're there. And the other big P is price, right, 459 00:29:56.880 --> 00:30:00.000 Um, you know that is actually one of the biggest Um can be 460 00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:04.119 one of the biggest determinants and how much money your institution is willing to invest 461 00:30:04.119 --> 00:30:10.000 in financial aid as an example. So Um, as goes though those decisions, 462 00:30:10.119 --> 00:30:14.440 often as goes your enrollment numbers, and sometimes it's easy for people to 463 00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:17.920 just poke over at marketing and be like hey, if the enrollment number is 464 00:30:17.960 --> 00:30:22.319 down, you know it's because marketers didn't do their job when maybe also you 465 00:30:22.359 --> 00:30:26.000 cut five million dollars out of the financial aid budget or something else that's bigger. 466 00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:27.480 So what I was always reminding it it's like, well, you don't 467 00:30:27.519 --> 00:30:30.599 know what the opportunity costs of not having that marketing would have been, you 468 00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:33.160 know, like in terms of like how far down that but it is. 469 00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:37.680 That's where again, people's like not understanding, Um, that marketing doesn't own 470 00:30:37.720 --> 00:30:41.880 all of it, and I do think marketing place a really important role in 471 00:30:41.960 --> 00:30:45.200 shaping the narrative and the perception of an institution. So it definitely helps there. 472 00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:48.400 But I just think it's important for everyone to remember that there's other levers 473 00:30:48.440 --> 00:30:52.720 to that are very important and they all have to kind of be working in 474 00:30:52.720 --> 00:30:56.680 the same direction for you to have ultimate success. Right, Kimbeth, you 475 00:30:56.759 --> 00:31:00.440 would is there a piece of advice that you could give our list snerves? 476 00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:08.720 Um? Well, one piece of advice that I would have is about learning 477 00:31:08.799 --> 00:31:15.119 to embrace the constraints that you have, um, because sometimes I think it's 478 00:31:15.160 --> 00:31:18.519 really easy to say, well, I I want to do this, but 479 00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:22.359 I can't do that because of x, Y and Z reason, and I'm 480 00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:29.599 a firm believer that creativity is unlocked in the space in between your ambition and 481 00:31:29.680 --> 00:31:33.039 your resources. And so when your resources are high and you're I'm sorry, 482 00:31:33.079 --> 00:31:37.680 your ambition is high and your resources are lower, in that space is where 483 00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:42.160 creativity unlocked. If your ambition and your resources are right around the same level 484 00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:45.880 or if your resources worse, outstrip your ambition, it's going to kill your 485 00:31:45.880 --> 00:31:51.440 creativity. So, Um, I think that leaning in and embracing constraints is 486 00:31:51.480 --> 00:31:55.519 definitely something that people could do immediately. and Um, one of the best 487 00:31:55.559 --> 00:31:57.640 ted talks that I feel like I ever saw was a talk called embrace the 488 00:31:57.720 --> 00:32:00.680 shake. Um, it's only about a ten minute talk, which is another 489 00:32:00.680 --> 00:32:02.920 reason why it's so great. It's one of the short ones, but it's 490 00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:07.799 all about an artist who did a certain type of work and then was unable 491 00:32:07.839 --> 00:32:09.720 to do that certain kind of work again and had to pivot. Um, 492 00:32:09.799 --> 00:32:14.400 and I've and and it's all about what he learned that, once he embraced 493 00:32:14.839 --> 00:32:19.200 the constraints, it unlocked creativity for him, and I feel like that's something 494 00:32:19.240 --> 00:32:22.079 that we as marketers can definitely also benefit from as well. I mean I 495 00:32:22.119 --> 00:32:27.839 went from like Oh Gosh, marketing budgets with many Zeros after them. In 496 00:32:27.880 --> 00:32:30.640 my general mills world, too much fewer Zeros, you know, in my 497 00:32:30.759 --> 00:32:35.480 higher ed world. And yet, Um, I don't know, good ideas 498 00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:37.880 get funded and if you just put your mind to it, there's there's always 499 00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:42.079 ways to kind of get out there, and I think that that is just 500 00:32:42.119 --> 00:32:45.079 a piece of advice that I would give to anybody. Just embrace your embrace 501 00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:46.920 the shake, as the Ted talk says, or embrace your constraints, because 502 00:32:47.079 --> 00:32:51.920 you'll be better off for it. Kim, thank you very much for your 503 00:32:51.960 --> 00:32:55.880 time, for your wisdom and the interesting way you convey your ideas. It's 504 00:32:55.920 --> 00:33:00.200 been a pleasure to speak with you today. Thank you. I've enjoyed being 505 00:33:00.200 --> 00:33:04.079 on here. I really appreciate your invitation. If someone would like to reach 506 00:33:04.119 --> 00:33:06.960 out and contact you, what would be the best way for them to do 507 00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:10.160 so? Um, best way is through Linkedin. That is my favorite social 508 00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:14.559 platform, and so I'm always happy to have people reach out and say that 509 00:33:14.599 --> 00:33:17.839 they heard the podcast and I can accept them and we can go from there. 510 00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:22.319 You can bart. Would you have any final thoughts that you would like 511 00:33:22.359 --> 00:33:25.519 to share before we end the episode? Yeah, this was just such a 512 00:33:25.519 --> 00:33:29.599 great episode and I would encourage you to rewind and listen to some of this 513 00:33:29.720 --> 00:33:31.000 again, but I just want to point out a couple of things that can 514 00:33:31.000 --> 00:33:36.000 had mentioned that I think are really applicable for anyone at any size school. 515 00:33:36.559 --> 00:33:38.519 Um. Keep in mind that, you know, the job of marketing and 516 00:33:38.799 --> 00:33:42.400 I think that I think some of the illustrations that Kim use would be a 517 00:33:42.400 --> 00:33:45.960 great way for you to communicate to others in your school is to put a 518 00:33:45.960 --> 00:33:49.359 spotlight. You know, it's it's it's amplifying the good things that are going 519 00:33:49.400 --> 00:33:52.279 on, and Kim used that example as as an example of, you know, 520 00:33:52.279 --> 00:33:57.400 some of the challenges that she was receiving on campus about marketing maybe being 521 00:33:57.440 --> 00:34:00.680 unethical or or or less than what we all know it is, but, 522 00:34:00.759 --> 00:34:05.000 you know, just being help, helping people understand that we're putting the spotlight 523 00:34:05.039 --> 00:34:07.280 on, on the stories that need to be told. That will help people 524 00:34:07.360 --> 00:34:10.519 make the decisions that they need to be making. And I think that also 525 00:34:10.599 --> 00:34:14.519 just the idea that I really liked, the idea of the way that Uh 526 00:34:14.840 --> 00:34:19.440 University of St Thomas, Minnesota, spent some time testing blessed are the nerdy 527 00:34:19.960 --> 00:34:22.519 Um. I thought that was a really good way of of kind of looking 528 00:34:22.599 --> 00:34:25.239 at that start with a digital campaign expand that out. I thought that was 529 00:34:25.280 --> 00:34:29.960 really wise. I think as marketers we have a responsibility to use data in 530 00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:31.800 our decision making and I think that that was a really good way to start 531 00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:36.119 that. And I really liked the comment that she made about being remarkable, 532 00:34:36.679 --> 00:34:40.280 the idea of doing something that's going to have people remember you and and have 533 00:34:40.360 --> 00:34:45.320 people talk about you. Um and many times remarkable can, as she pointed 534 00:34:45.320 --> 00:34:47.599 out, can be good or bad. Um often if we do something remarkable, 535 00:34:47.599 --> 00:34:51.440 that we get out of that Vanilla area, we can have something that's 536 00:34:51.440 --> 00:34:53.920 a little bit more worthy of discussion. I think we can all think of, 537 00:34:54.119 --> 00:34:58.400 you know, products or services or schools that we see doing that that 538 00:34:58.400 --> 00:35:00.400 are getting the conversation, that things are happening, that things are, you 539 00:35:00.440 --> 00:35:02.480 know, being talked about, and I think that's a really good way of 540 00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:06.320 doing that. And then I think also, just finally, that last comment 541 00:35:06.360 --> 00:35:09.039 that she made with with the you know, the difference between ambition and resources. 542 00:35:09.079 --> 00:35:13.000 And that's where creativity is. I remember, Um, you know, 543 00:35:13.159 --> 00:35:15.960 consulting, you know consulting in one of my designers several years ago and they 544 00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:20.880 were so frustrated that one of the projects came back and that the client, 545 00:35:20.960 --> 00:35:23.199 you know, put all these constrictions on it and they wanted all these challenges 546 00:35:23.199 --> 00:35:25.800 and he was ready to throw in the Talleng to say I'm done, and 547 00:35:25.840 --> 00:35:30.079 I said, really, this is where this is where your opportunity is, 548 00:35:30.079 --> 00:35:31.760 is to do something totally different. Um, you know, because now you 549 00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:36.039 have boundaries and you have to work within those boundaries. And I think, 550 00:35:36.159 --> 00:35:38.320 you know, I saw him bloom into something that I had never seen. 551 00:35:38.480 --> 00:35:42.599 His creativity fired up, and I think that's exactly what Kim was saying, 552 00:35:42.599 --> 00:35:46.039 and so I really really appreciate that comment and Kim, it's been such a 553 00:35:46.039 --> 00:35:51.159 pleasure to have you on the show. You're welcome back anytime. Oh, 554 00:35:51.199 --> 00:35:55.400 thank you, I appreciate it. The hired marketing podcast is sponsored by Kaylor 555 00:35:55.519 --> 00:36:02.239 solutions and education marketing and branding agency and by thing patented, a marketing execution 556 00:36:02.280 --> 00:36:10.320 company combining print and technology for personalization for Higher Ed Solutions. On behalf of 557 00:36:10.360 --> 00:36:15.400 my co host Bart Taylor, I'm troy singer. Thank you for joining us. 558 00:36:21.920 --> 00:36:24.559 You've been listening to the Higher Ed Marketer. To ensure that you never 559 00:36:24.599 --> 00:36:30.280 miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If 560 00:36:30.280 --> 00:36:32.880 you're listening with apple PODCASTS, we'd love for you to leave a quick rating 561 00:36:32.920 --> 00:36:37.880 of the show. Simply tap the number of stars you think the podcast deserves. 562 00:36:37.599 --> 00:36:38.440 Until next time,