Increasing Outcomes for Higher Ed Leaders Through Radical Collaboration

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:06.320 The High Red Marketer podcast is sponsored by the ZEM APP enabling colleges and universities 2 00:00:06.519 --> 00:00:15.199 to engage interested students before they even apply. You're listening to the Higher Ed 3 00:00:15.279 --> 00:00:20.519 Marketer, a podcast geared towards marketing professionals in higher education. This show will 4 00:00:20.559 --> 00:00:25.440 tackle all sorts of questions related to student recruitment, donor relations, marketing trends, 5 00:00:25.440 --> 00:00:30.239 new technologies and so much more. If you're looking for conversations centered around 6 00:00:30.239 --> 00:00:34.399 where the industry is going, this podcast is for you. Let's get into 7 00:00:34.439 --> 00:00:44.880 the show. Today on the Higher Ed Marketer Podcast, Mart and I speak 8 00:00:44.920 --> 00:00:52.000 with Dr Michael Horowitz of the T C S Education System about increasing outcomes for 9 00:00:52.119 --> 00:00:57.719 higher ed leaders through formal and courageous collaboration, and I love the conversation that 10 00:00:57.799 --> 00:01:03.359 we had with Dr Horowitz. Uh He is an expert on how to use 11 00:01:03.439 --> 00:01:07.560 benchmarking and also how to market to adult learners, and I believe he shares 12 00:01:07.599 --> 00:01:12.680 a lot of best cases for our listeners to do the same at their institutions. 13 00:01:14.079 --> 00:01:15.439 That's right, Troy. I think that there's a lot of really good 14 00:01:15.480 --> 00:01:19.840 information in this episode. Dr Horowitz kind of spend some time at the beginning 15 00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:23.159 talking a little bit about TCS and and how they do the radical collaboration with 16 00:01:23.239 --> 00:01:27.879 among different schools and and how they set that up as part of their organization. 17 00:01:29.280 --> 00:01:30.519 But I think it is really kind of critical when we get get to 18 00:01:30.519 --> 00:01:34.319 the point, maybe about five ten minutes into the interview, we start talking 19 00:01:34.359 --> 00:01:38.920 about adult learning and really some specifics on the expertise that Dr Horowitz brings with 20 00:01:38.920 --> 00:01:42.840 with his experience with adult learning and and how to market to them and how 21 00:01:42.879 --> 00:01:47.079 TCS does a lot of that marketing as well. I think it's really important 22 00:01:47.079 --> 00:01:51.159 to listen to that and really understand a little bit about how that radical collaboration 23 00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:55.920 can play out even at your own school. He is a great leader in 24 00:01:55.920 --> 00:02:05.319 interesting conversationalists and here's our conversation with Dr Michael Horwitz. Dr Horwitz, before 25 00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:09.599 we get into our conversation about the TCS education system, I would like to 26 00:02:09.639 --> 00:02:15.400 ask you is there anything that you've learned recently that's interesting or knew that you 27 00:02:15.439 --> 00:02:22.840 can share? Well, that's a great question, Troy. Interestingly enough, 28 00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:30.080 I've learned this morning in the Higher Ed press that two universities announced that they 29 00:02:30.080 --> 00:02:38.080 were going to try to form a nonprofit education system and we had to mention 30 00:02:38.319 --> 00:02:45.599 in the article and I'm excited to see that people are recognizing the power of 31 00:02:45.599 --> 00:02:51.319 the model and understanding it. A few years ago, when we were talking 32 00:02:52.199 --> 00:02:57.199 to the leadership of WASSK are major creditor, they asked me if we could 33 00:02:57.240 --> 00:03:01.800 have a hundred colleges within TC s and I said I don't know that that 34 00:03:01.960 --> 00:03:07.840 is our goal or should be, but I'd like to see a hundred systems 35 00:03:07.400 --> 00:03:13.599 like ours take hold. And so that that was a fun way to start 36 00:03:13.599 --> 00:03:16.400 off today. To read about that, of course, in a great way 37 00:03:16.439 --> 00:03:22.319 to segment, or excuse me, segue into our conversation if you would tell 38 00:03:22.360 --> 00:03:28.919 everyone who you are, your role and what tcs education system the model that 39 00:03:29.000 --> 00:03:34.879 it promotes and works under. Okay, great, thank you. So I'm 40 00:03:34.919 --> 00:03:44.400 Michael Horowitz, PhD. I have a doctorate in clinical psychology and trained to 41 00:03:44.439 --> 00:03:52.080 be a psychologist and a psychoanalyst. I got very interested along the way in 42 00:03:52.240 --> 00:04:00.599 the promise of psychology as an independent profession and became very active and spent many 43 00:04:00.680 --> 00:04:08.960 years in schools of professional psychology and different roles, faculty, administrator, eventually 44 00:04:09.080 --> 00:04:15.400 president of the Chicago School of Professional Psychology, and I served in that role 45 00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:25.759 from two thousand. In twenty nine I decided to found UH TCS education system, 46 00:04:25.839 --> 00:04:31.120 the community solution and higher education. I had wonderful colleagues and wonderful board 47 00:04:31.160 --> 00:04:36.439 members who supported that vision. What I came to understand is, even though 48 00:04:36.519 --> 00:04:42.920 we had had great success growing the Chicago School from about two hundred students to 49 00:04:43.040 --> 00:04:49.839 over three thousand and having a national footprint, that we needed to bring colleges 50 00:04:49.879 --> 00:04:57.319 and universities together in a formally governed model. And so in twenty Oh nine 51 00:04:57.519 --> 00:05:04.040 we created the framework and in twenty ten we went live UH and today we're 52 00:05:04.120 --> 00:05:10.879 up to five colleges and universities. Were on the cusp of a sixth university 53 00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:16.920 joining us in, and so we are an integrated nonprofit system and what we're 54 00:05:16.959 --> 00:05:27.639 about is working collaboratively to advance institutional sustainability, student success and community impact. 55 00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:31.360 Thank you. And I think one of the ways that you describe that is 56 00:05:31.399 --> 00:05:39.120 with the term the power of radical cooperation or radical co operation. Can you 57 00:05:39.160 --> 00:05:44.199 expand upon that? I'd love to, because it's uh it's our bread and 58 00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:49.360 butter. You know, there's that old saw that culture eat strategy, and 59 00:05:51.040 --> 00:06:00.279 when you create an integrated nonprofit system and you ask faculty, Staff Boards to 60 00:06:00.439 --> 00:06:06.439 work across the nation and really across the globe, because we've continued to advance 61 00:06:08.040 --> 00:06:13.399 our activity around the world. You have to double down every day on the 62 00:06:13.399 --> 00:06:18.759 notion of its one organization, one system. We're working to support each other. 63 00:06:19.600 --> 00:06:28.160 You know, Higher Ed is kind of distinct in being radically non cooperative, 64 00:06:28.920 --> 00:06:32.519 and that might be another podcast where we could look at the reasons for 65 00:06:32.639 --> 00:06:40.639 that. If you go to most sectors you know of of society, there's 66 00:06:40.680 --> 00:06:46.920 no way to solve big problems without working in what I would define as a 67 00:06:46.040 --> 00:06:56.439 radically cooperative way. I just read a piece on Uston having the most success 68 00:06:56.600 --> 00:07:00.959 in dealing with homelessness and of any of big cities, and what was striking 69 00:07:01.199 --> 00:07:09.720 as part of the discussion was various agencies and nonprofits that interface with that population 70 00:07:10.120 --> 00:07:14.839 had to work with each other in a cooperative way that they never had before. 71 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:21.040 So radical cooperation means that's our our biggest cultural value. We're looking at 72 00:07:21.079 --> 00:07:26.639 each other as teammates. We're trying to figure out the best way forward for 73 00:07:26.680 --> 00:07:30.920 our students, for our colleges, and you asked about what I've learned recently, 74 00:07:31.199 --> 00:07:36.120 but I've learned things over many years. There's a great ted talk, 75 00:07:36.240 --> 00:07:43.199 one of my favorites, by a Boston consulting person, Eve Moreau, that 76 00:07:43.319 --> 00:07:50.279 talks about where businesses and organizations lose the most impact and productivity is by not 77 00:07:50.480 --> 00:07:56.319 working together. And so it's it's those are not things you can necessarily measure 78 00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:03.839 on a budget or in a patric but you can feel it and you will 79 00:08:03.879 --> 00:08:07.319 see the impact on those matrics. Yeah, I think that's so interesting that 80 00:08:07.399 --> 00:08:11.439 you say that, Dr Harwin's, because I've I've worked with Lumina Foundation for 81 00:08:11.600 --> 00:08:15.639 Education for years and they, you know, they have had their their big 82 00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:18.920 goal, the goal where they want to see six of the you know, 83 00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:26.399 adults in the United States having a post you know, Post Post secondary degree 84 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:30.519 of some kind, whether it's in professional training or or bachelor or otherwise. 85 00:08:31.079 --> 00:08:33.600 And I think sometimes about the idea that as higher education marketers, we get 86 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:37.279 so worried that we're competing against each of us. A lot of times we're 87 00:08:37.279 --> 00:08:41.159 competing against life. Um You know a lot of students don't end up in 88 00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:45.840 our programs because of life and not necessarily because they go to the other school. 89 00:08:46.360 --> 00:08:50.000 And so I think that even as marketers, this idea of radical cooperation 90 00:08:50.120 --> 00:08:54.399 is appealing to me because maybe you can tell us a little bit about how 91 00:08:54.759 --> 00:08:56.399 I mean when I think about, you know, organizations like yours, I 92 00:08:56.399 --> 00:09:01.320 know a lot of this. The State Independent College Associations often have you purchasing, 93 00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:05.679 you know, agreements that they'll do with with large, you know, 94 00:09:05.759 --> 00:09:09.480 software vendors or I t or different things like that. But what you're talking 95 00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:13.480 about goes beyond just purchasing. I mean we're talking about radical cooperation in other 96 00:09:13.559 --> 00:09:20.600 aspects of the of the campus as well. Correct, absolutely so. I'm 97 00:09:20.600 --> 00:09:28.759 glad you brought up that experience of state associations. My ten years as president 98 00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:33.519 of the Chicago School I went to the Illinois version and there are always great 99 00:09:33.559 --> 00:09:41.480 aspirations to do things together. It seemed like the core emphasis, and that's 100 00:09:41.559 --> 00:09:46.919 my observation on most of the associations, was to lobby as a group for 101 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:52.440 state funding. That's absolutely important and the right thing to do. I didn't 102 00:09:52.440 --> 00:10:00.000 see anything else of impact and part of my diagnosis or desire to do something 103 00:10:00.159 --> 00:10:05.279 different is you have to formally tie it together at the governing level. If 104 00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:11.000 you don't have buy in from the boards of trustees and the leadership the rest 105 00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:16.200 of it's not gonna work. There are too many competing factors. And so 106 00:10:16.279 --> 00:10:24.279 I started tcs from an academic premise, that bringing colleges with passion for their 107 00:10:24.320 --> 00:10:33.039 programs, their communities together. Uh, there was absolutely every expectation will will 108 00:10:33.080 --> 00:10:37.840 be better as a group. Um, and you're absolutely right that you should 109 00:10:37.919 --> 00:10:43.600 be able, and we do by at better cost or better quality, or 110 00:10:43.720 --> 00:10:50.360 both, by being as a group. And that that's one small part of 111 00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:54.200 it. Ah, but really the biggest part you have to get right up 112 00:10:54.200 --> 00:11:01.360 front is how's everybody at every level going to commit to this being a united 113 00:11:01.399 --> 00:11:07.360 effort? Then the purchasing is almost the easiest. Like well, of course, 114 00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:15.600 because but again here's where culture comes in. We we don't necessarily strive 115 00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:20.799 to say we're gonna save money. We'd rather create the biggest impact with our 116 00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:24.799 dollar. So often that means our colleges might be spending the same but for 117 00:11:24.879 --> 00:11:30.759 something much higher level. So as if you're going to do that with technology, 118 00:11:31.240 --> 00:11:35.960 you have to have the agreement. We can debate the system and then 119 00:11:35.960 --> 00:11:41.639 we're going to decide it's one system, because then then that's where the breakdown 120 00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:46.080 happens in my experience, when you don't have it tied up at the top 121 00:11:46.200 --> 00:11:50.919 level. So we're all in agreement. Let's look at different systems, let's 122 00:11:50.919 --> 00:11:54.480 have presentations and then let's agree we're gonna pick one so we can drive the 123 00:11:54.519 --> 00:11:58.600 best price, we can get the most expertise and off we go. And 124 00:11:58.679 --> 00:12:03.480 sure there's there are arguments to be made for system B, C and D 125 00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:09.360 that we didn't choose, but you're gonna get the high impact from that commitment 126 00:12:09.399 --> 00:12:11.840 to being a team right. And is it true, too, that the 127 00:12:11.879 --> 00:12:16.559 idea that that even with Um, you know, said earlier when I set 128 00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:20.559 up my question, that you know, we're often competing against life. I 129 00:12:20.600 --> 00:12:24.039 think, though, that in the nature of the way education is going. 130 00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:28.679 I mean we've seen radical shifts and, you know, telephones and other industries, 131 00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:31.960 computer and how you know, there's you know, somebody comes in with 132 00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:35.240 like the iphone came in and it totally upended everything that we knew about a 133 00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:39.480 mobile phone. I think that we're on the cusp of something like that happening 134 00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:43.240 in Higher Ed and I think that's going to be outside of what is known 135 00:12:43.240 --> 00:12:48.240 as the traditional Higher Ed. I mean we've we've heard talks from Google and 136 00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:54.679 other large corporations about ideas that they have to fix the brokenness of of of 137 00:12:54.759 --> 00:12:58.600 higher education. And so I think in some ways, Um, you know, 138 00:12:58.600 --> 00:13:01.000 people are always going to need an always want to have traditional higher end, 139 00:13:01.080 --> 00:13:05.799 that the experience, the student experience, everything that there is in traditional 140 00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:09.039 higher end. That's always going to be something that's going to be wanted. 141 00:13:09.080 --> 00:13:13.840 But my fear is is that if we're not doing this radical cooperation and we're 142 00:13:13.879 --> 00:13:16.000 just kind of putting our head down the sands and doing our own things, 143 00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:20.879 something big is going to come along and gonna shift the entire playing field. 144 00:13:20.919 --> 00:13:22.639 Is it? Is that part of what you were talking about or thinking about 145 00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:28.919 with the with the TCS system as well? Uh, I agree with most 146 00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:33.799 of what you said. I'll temper. I'll temper with that. Higher Ed, 147 00:13:33.919 --> 00:13:39.399 for better or for worse, has been resistant and resilient in fending off 148 00:13:41.039 --> 00:13:46.159 a lot of innovation. So again, that that that requires a few books 149 00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:50.960 to be written about it, because it's got to be more than ten years 150 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:58.679 ago where Clayton Christensen h wrote that and he's a great theorist. But basically, 151 00:13:58.080 --> 00:14:01.279 you know, America and the Higher Ed's going to get wiped out and 152 00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:09.320 we're just going to see big for profit online take over everything. And you 153 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:16.720 know, and and he had good presentations sort of explaining how, for a 154 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:22.799 while the American car industry got wiped out by innovations coming from Japan and other 155 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:30.320 countries. So in a way I'm gonna say not so fast. I'll focus 156 00:14:30.360 --> 00:14:39.279 in on what we do right. We were affording high access two adult students, 157 00:14:39.919 --> 00:14:50.200 by and large seeking important professional degrees. So these are degrees and professions 158 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:56.720 that are overwhelmingly licensed. They take a big commitment, whether it's becoming a 159 00:14:56.759 --> 00:15:03.519 psychologist, a lawyer, a medical doctor. So the way we're teaching in 160 00:15:03.559 --> 00:15:09.320 those spaces absolutely is getting transformed by technology. But you're not going to be 161 00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:15.120 able to go online and, you know, take a course oftwered by a 162 00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:20.039 tech company and then like Hey, I'd like to practice medicine. So it's 163 00:15:20.840 --> 00:15:26.200 it's UH. Doug Liederman, one of the founders of inside Higher Ed, 164 00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:31.720 made a good point uh at a West conference a few years ago, that 165 00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:37.080 the public thinks of the American higher education system, there is no higher education 166 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:46.399 system. There's multiple ecosystems. So TCS lives largely in this word world of 167 00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:56.360 passionate adult students seeking pretty sophisticated levels of education. So how we market, 168 00:15:56.480 --> 00:16:03.159 how we teach, how we enroll, absolutely shifting in response to technology. 169 00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:12.600 At the same time shifting or staying static in response two regulatory agencies professions that 170 00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:17.840 will have as big as, say, as as the tech companies. So 171 00:16:17.919 --> 00:16:22.919 that that I'm a big embracer of technology, but we we make a mistake 172 00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:27.200 with higher ad uh, they're the quickest to change, you know. But 173 00:16:27.240 --> 00:16:33.000 now we're saying, as we learn about layoffs in this economy, the tech 174 00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:37.200 companies are going to be the first to contract and we're not. Everyone is 175 00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:41.159 training to work at Google. We're all going to use Google, but not 176 00:16:41.240 --> 00:16:45.720 everyone is gonna earn their living or be fulfilled or get a job there. 177 00:16:45.960 --> 00:16:48.759 We talk a lot about it on the show. Schools are really struggling today 178 00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:53.240 that make the same at spin work. CPMS are up eight year over a 179 00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:57.879 year. On facebook and instagram. Our College clients are no longer looking for 180 00:16:57.919 --> 00:17:03.440 rented audiences. They're looking for an owned community where they can engage students even 181 00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:07.680 before they apply. This is why Zemi has become so crucial for our clients, 182 00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:12.160 with over one million students, close to ten thou five star ratings consistently 183 00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:17.519 ranked as one of the top social lapps and recently one of Apple's hot APPs 184 00:17:17.519 --> 00:17:19.960 of the week. There simply isn't anything out there like it, and we 185 00:17:21.039 --> 00:17:23.559 have seen it all. Ze Me not only provides the best space for student 186 00:17:23.599 --> 00:17:29.480 engagement, but the most unique and actionable data for their one sixty college and 187 00:17:29.599 --> 00:17:33.319 university partners. We know firsthand from our clients that Ze me is a must 188 00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:38.680 have strategy for Gen Z. Check them out now at colleges dot Zem dot 189 00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:45.039 com. That's colleges dot Z E M E dot Com. And yes, 190 00:17:45.559 --> 00:17:51.480 tell them Barton Troy sent you. Thank you, Dr Horowitz, and I'm 191 00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:59.079 going to encourage our listeners to investigate and research tcs and what you're doing there, 192 00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:03.839 because I think they're a lot of great that is happening that others can 193 00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:07.839 learn from. I do want to switch gears a little bit because I want 194 00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:12.839 to make sure we offer some advice for the schools that aren't, uh, 195 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:18.559 in a consortiution like yours. But we also know that you have some expertise 196 00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:23.039 in benchmarking and would like to ask how you feel schools can better utilize benchmarking 197 00:18:23.680 --> 00:18:33.880 and attain progress within what they're currently doing. Yeah, I mean, I'm 198 00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:38.240 pretty basic in this regard. I'll give you a few. I'm sometimes amazed 199 00:18:38.279 --> 00:18:45.279 that people are not using these benchmarks and I will say on any given day 200 00:18:45.319 --> 00:18:48.720 not everything we do works in a given day, a given year. So 201 00:18:48.759 --> 00:18:55.359 our arrows aren't always up from one standpoint. If you're a nonprofit college, 202 00:18:55.400 --> 00:19:00.000 you need to be operating with the goal of the surplus each and every year. 203 00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:06.359 That's a pretty basic metric. It's it's stunning actually how many colleges don't 204 00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:11.440 and then they're wondering why things are getting tougher, why they're discounting more. 205 00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:17.039 I mean there's a lot behind that. Get Your Business Model Right. If 206 00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:21.400 you're losing money every year, there's it's it will start to spiral out of 207 00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:27.519 control. We're so lucky. We're not lucky because I think we choose people 208 00:19:27.559 --> 00:19:33.000 well. Our colleges do. Our leaders are really committed to that. Sometimes 209 00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:37.599 there's a tough year, they don't have it, but because you know the 210 00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:45.640 year they are they have that cushion. We are laser focused on student success. 211 00:19:45.799 --> 00:19:49.880 The most important metric is how many students complete and graduate, and then 212 00:19:49.880 --> 00:19:56.519 a further metric is people. Hopefully, since we're meeting for the first time. 213 00:19:56.759 --> 00:20:00.799 You won't be tired of me talking about it. People get tired me 214 00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:04.720 saying the loan default rate is is critical and people say, well, that's 215 00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:14.079 kind of away from education. Like now most students are borrowing money. It's 216 00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:18.960 a big commitment to get to a certain place in life. We hope not 217 00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:22.839 only to have a rewarding profession, but they've been changed and impacted by learning 218 00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:27.599 and practicing that profession. We want to see them finish the program get licensed, 219 00:20:27.640 --> 00:20:32.240 if they're in a license your program, and pay back the loan. 220 00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:37.319 That tells us that all the way through it's working, so that that those 221 00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:42.799 are first and foremost among the metrics, the student ones. If the student 222 00:20:42.839 --> 00:20:48.240 ones are working, if you're graduating most of the students, they're paying back 223 00:20:48.279 --> 00:20:52.000 their loans. The rest will follow. On the budgets, we we have 224 00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:56.720 remarkable, you know, data and reports. So we of course look at 225 00:20:57.400 --> 00:21:06.000 inquiries and applications and conversions, but at the end of the day we don't 226 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:11.000 care if we have more inquiries or less. We want to get applications from 227 00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:15.119 qualified students and, more importantly, get them to where they hope to go. 228 00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:18.279 Yeah, I think that that's such an important thing when you talk about 229 00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:22.880 benchmarking, because I I often talk here on the podcast, we've had a 230 00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:26.839 lot of conversations about it as well as just direct conversations when I talk with 231 00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:29.640 my clients, is just, you know, what are those key performance indicators? 232 00:21:29.640 --> 00:21:33.839 I mean you've talked about some more um macro, you know, benchmarking 233 00:21:33.920 --> 00:21:40.359 with with default loans and you know, retention to graduation rates and things like 234 00:21:40.400 --> 00:21:44.079 that. But I think even when we get down into the marketing, uh, 235 00:21:44.119 --> 00:21:45.680 you know, when we're looking at, as you just kind of alluded 236 00:21:45.720 --> 00:21:49.519 to, you know, those campaigns of what are our conversion rates? What 237 00:21:49.559 --> 00:21:55.000 are what are we looking at and having the ability and the tools to be 238 00:21:55.039 --> 00:21:59.079 able to set up those key key performance indicators, know the ones that we 239 00:21:59.079 --> 00:22:02.720 should be looking and looking for. I still find a lot of people are 240 00:22:02.759 --> 00:22:07.079 confused on, you know, whether impressions are important or conversions are imp important. 241 00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:10.200 I mean, you know, I'm more concerned about how many students I 242 00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:14.240 have in the fall or in the next cycle rather than how many people saw 243 00:22:14.279 --> 00:22:17.960 my billboard on the interstate. And so I want to make sure you're exactly 244 00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:22.960 right. Don't don't get confused by the glitzy right and now your core markers. 245 00:22:23.079 --> 00:22:30.039 Right. What what are we interested in? Enrollments of qualified students. 246 00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:33.039 We I mean, I know enough to be dangerous. I do love marketing, 247 00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:37.640 but we have great leadership in our marketing team. I rely on them 248 00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:45.000 for the expertise. But I know that currently we're experimenting with really dialing down 249 00:22:45.640 --> 00:22:52.319 lead vendor, as an example, and really focus on better quality applications. 250 00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:55.880 The best ones, you know, are the ones that will find us through 251 00:22:55.920 --> 00:22:59.920 our own websites. So yeah, if inquiries go way down but we end 252 00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:06.680 up with equally strong or hopefully better starting class, then that's even better. 253 00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:14.640 The other thing recently and we I think it's critical from a culture standpoint to 254 00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:18.880 always look at what's going on in the larger world. So we we have 255 00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:23.000 an annual operating review with all of our college leadership teams. We had a 256 00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:30.759 great marketing panel of some of our major outside vendors and the representative from Google 257 00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:34.759 made a really interesting point in the way that people could get she asked someone 258 00:23:36.079 --> 00:23:40.759 how they got to the meeting that day and the person said, you know, 259 00:23:41.079 --> 00:23:48.480 I drove my car, and she said, but yeah, what about 260 00:23:48.519 --> 00:23:52.119 the highway? What about the traffic? How did you get there. So 261 00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:57.759 what we realized, what was really tangible, is someone may have clicked on 262 00:23:57.799 --> 00:24:04.039 our website but they had eight different engagements that we haven't captured because they talked 263 00:24:04.039 --> 00:24:11.319 to an alarm, they went to a healthcare setting and their psychologists. It 264 00:24:11.480 --> 00:24:15.440 wasn't alarm. They maybe saw the billboard. So it's uh, that was 265 00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:21.319 a very interesting point. The other one she said is that now cent if 266 00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:25.839 I'm rembering correctly, of time online is spent looking at videos. Oh, 267 00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:30.559 that's really interesting. It's it's fast. Yeah, I may have gotten I 268 00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:33.279 maybe don't hold me to that number, but it was very high. That 269 00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:41.880 certainly suggests that we should be producing compelling video. I agree with you and 270 00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:45.880 I know that TCS spends a lot of times focused on on adult learners and 271 00:24:45.880 --> 00:24:48.440 and a lot of the work that that Um, you know, I have 272 00:24:48.519 --> 00:24:52.160 experience in is is kind of in that small to medium sized school because a 273 00:24:52.200 --> 00:24:56.400 lot of times those schools are the ones that are really leveraging the adult learning 274 00:24:56.519 --> 00:25:00.799 and the online modality to make sure that they can kind of, you know, 275 00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:03.519 increase their net revenue. And so I think that, Um, you 276 00:25:03.559 --> 00:25:07.799 know, I'm curious when you start thinking about everything that tcs is doing too, 277 00:25:08.039 --> 00:25:11.480 to kind of serve those schools for that adult learning, you know, 278 00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:14.799 as you put it, the professional and the licensing types of things with nursing 279 00:25:14.839 --> 00:25:18.920 and psychology and those types of things. I feel like it's some you know, 280 00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:22.359 there's a lot of probably the biggest thing that I could say, and 281 00:25:22.519 --> 00:25:25.880 I guess I'm trying to get you to kind of validate this, and what 282 00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:27.880 I'm hearing and what you're seeing is that, Um, you know, you 283 00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:33.240 have to you have to market differently to adults than you do traditional students, 284 00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:36.440 and I think a lot of schools fail to think about that. They think 285 00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:38.119 it's as easy as just, well, if we buy some Google ads and 286 00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:41.279 we're good and we're set right. I mean we just run them through the 287 00:25:41.319 --> 00:25:48.559 same I agree with that. I'll take it. I shared with our marketing 288 00:25:48.599 --> 00:25:56.559 team recently. Another organization I admire is the Zingerman community of businesses and their 289 00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:03.240 CO founder, Ari Weinswag, has a new interesting weekly email where he both 290 00:26:03.680 --> 00:26:08.640 sells his product, their food business, but has kind of a philosophical take 291 00:26:08.759 --> 00:26:14.880 on business, and what he wrote about recently was marketing with dignity and what 292 00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:19.680 you're describing when you when you do the Google ads. Where's the substance? 293 00:26:19.799 --> 00:26:29.559 To me, marketing with dignity is where authentically and transparently conveying what is positive 294 00:26:29.559 --> 00:26:33.440 about our institution, what the program is. There's historically been this thought of, 295 00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:37.799 you know, let's hide the information and then they'll want it more, 296 00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:44.680 and that we're living in an age where we have to be very transparent the 297 00:26:44.799 --> 00:26:51.039 costs the benefit. Here's how the program works. So to market well, 298 00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:56.000 you have to the institution has to be geared to that student. You have 299 00:26:56.079 --> 00:27:00.160 to have faculty that are embracing of the student. That comes with work and 300 00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:07.359 life experience. So I'm at a great interaction at Pacific Oaks, one of 301 00:27:07.400 --> 00:27:14.640 our colleges. One time a m a prospective student was being brought through with 302 00:27:14.680 --> 00:27:18.720 admissions and I happened to be with my wife, who is an early childhood 303 00:27:18.759 --> 00:27:25.039 psychologists a very resident with what Pacific Oaks does, and we stopped and had 304 00:27:25.079 --> 00:27:30.359 a chat about you know, this student was currently working as an early childhood 305 00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:33.519 teacher and my wife was well, you're gonna love it here because you know 306 00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:37.839 those are the students that come here. You're gonna get to apply what you're 307 00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:41.920 doing every day with the classroom. The faculty really worked that way. You 308 00:27:41.960 --> 00:27:48.519 could see her face brightened, because a lot of institutions, I don't think 309 00:27:48.519 --> 00:27:52.359 of that. And so it doesn't matter how many Google ads the student comes 310 00:27:52.359 --> 00:27:56.559 in and I've literally seen faculty at some institutions say no, we don't want 311 00:27:56.599 --> 00:28:00.319 any prior experience. You know, the students an empty hearten and our job 312 00:28:00.440 --> 00:28:03.440 is to fill it. Right. But you know, the other thing I'll 313 00:28:03.440 --> 00:28:10.160 say about the nomenclature. The majority of American Higher Ed today are working adults, 314 00:28:10.519 --> 00:28:15.640 even the UNDERGRADS. Uh, I think the last number I saw was 315 00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:18.200 the twenty five years old and most of them have jobs. So the the 316 00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:22.880 campus with the eighteen to twenty two year old it's still a big segment. 317 00:28:23.279 --> 00:28:29.680 It's not the majority. So I'm not sure why we're talking about that. 318 00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:33.960 Is Traditional. Maybe traditional is right. It's certainly not the norm. And 319 00:28:34.039 --> 00:28:41.920 so yeah, we we have to approach students fundamentally different way and that will 320 00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:45.759 of course inform the marketing. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. 321 00:28:45.759 --> 00:28:48.920 I mean it has to be a whole different way of looking at the 322 00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:52.880 student and the experience rather than just saying, oh well, the only difference 323 00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:56.519 is the modality in the age. Well, now there's a whole different way 324 00:28:56.519 --> 00:29:00.279 of looking at it from a marketing standpoint and what their needs are, how 325 00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:04.720 they make their decisions, how they respond to you know why they respond in 326 00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:07.839 the way that they do. I mean they're checking off boxes that I need 327 00:29:07.839 --> 00:29:10.640 to get this done, I need to do this and I need to go 328 00:29:10.680 --> 00:29:14.039 do my laundry. I don't have time to yeah, and then and and 329 00:29:14.079 --> 00:29:18.960 they you're absolutely right, when you stay competing with life. Uh. And 330 00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:25.240 we're going to do a project with Google analytics in the coming years, led 331 00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:30.079 by our chief academic officer and some of our other great leaders, to try 332 00:29:30.079 --> 00:29:34.480 and understand if we can earlier in the journey. Is it academic? Is 333 00:29:34.519 --> 00:29:40.039 it financial? Is it personal? What can we do to intervene and help? 334 00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:45.599 A right? That's Great, Dr Howarts, that's really fascinating when I 335 00:29:45.640 --> 00:29:49.079 think about how adult students are different, and I think that it goes back 336 00:29:49.119 --> 00:29:55.039 to and and you know with your background in in Um psychology and different things 337 00:29:55.119 --> 00:29:59.039 like that, there's a true Um psychology of marketing. Could you talk on 338 00:29:59.160 --> 00:30:00.240 that for just a moment, because I think a lot of times, as 339 00:30:00.279 --> 00:30:04.000 hired marketers, we tend to forget that and even at some of the smaller 340 00:30:04.039 --> 00:30:07.640 faith based schools there's a tension that they feel like, well, I'm manipulating 341 00:30:07.720 --> 00:30:11.000 someone. Talk about that a little bit. Well, that and that's why 342 00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:18.440 I absolutely believe in Ari. WEINSWAG's idea of marketing with dignity. I don't 343 00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:22.839 want to trick anyone to coming to our school. I want, in fact, 344 00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:26.519 I want, a hundred percent knowledge and awareness, because the program won't 345 00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:32.160 be easy, it will be it will be very rewarding. Um, what 346 00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:38.039 does that mean? Personalized information at every touch point. So our marketing team, 347 00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:44.319 which produces incredible content. You know there they have both print and digital 348 00:30:44.440 --> 00:30:49.160 magazines as an example. Different students have different interests, so I want to 349 00:30:49.200 --> 00:30:53.640 know about the faculties, I want to know about the time to do degree. 350 00:30:53.759 --> 00:30:59.240 So we have found a way to personalize it. And then, of 351 00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:03.319 course, we're ending UH, the way we learn. I think we follow 352 00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:08.839 this all the way through. We have a fabulous instructional design team working with 353 00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:15.519 our faculty, because they're going to be some students need more of you know, 354 00:31:15.680 --> 00:31:21.240 printed instruction and summer are going to do better with videos. I think 355 00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:25.640 a core thing for us, going back to our name the community solution, 356 00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:30.200 if you want to call it selling, and it has the benefit of being 357 00:31:30.359 --> 00:31:34.839 true. We want to convey. Come to our programs, you will have 358 00:31:34.920 --> 00:31:40.240 a sense of community and the most thrilling thing is you see that when you 359 00:31:40.279 --> 00:31:44.960 go to our graduations. The alumni, the new alumni, will talk about 360 00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:48.960 this. What got me through was this feeling there were people like me. 361 00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:55.920 The Faculty and Staff Really supported me, uh in, in the very difficult 362 00:31:56.359 --> 00:32:00.599 circumstance of being a parent, having a job going to school. I always 363 00:32:00.599 --> 00:32:08.200 felt there was a community surrounding me for success. So it turns out you 364 00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:14.880 can actually market that, uh and that that's I think, and I think 365 00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:17.839 when you talk about adult learners. But I would guess that's gonna work. 366 00:32:19.039 --> 00:32:22.720 There's eighteen year olds are looking for a certain thing too. So you want 367 00:32:22.759 --> 00:32:27.440 a Taylor to what? In that case, maybe parents. You're marketing to 368 00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:32.000 parents. We we don't market as much to parents. It's an interesting for 369 00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:37.200 some of our younger students there maybe an element of still parents are the consumer, 370 00:32:37.720 --> 00:32:40.880 but what we want to talk to them about. We're gonna envelop you 371 00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:47.240 in a in a learning and professional community that we know has a high chance 372 00:32:49.119 --> 00:32:51.960 to get you out on the other side. That's great. Thank you. 373 00:32:53.160 --> 00:32:58.160 We want to close our conversation with you, Dr Horowitz, by asking you 374 00:32:58.279 --> 00:33:01.079 if there's a piece of advice that you would of other marketers that they could 375 00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:08.599 implement right away. That comes from your TCS system. We've talked about this 376 00:33:09.079 --> 00:33:16.640 for years. Don't try to sell things that you don't have authentically in the 377 00:33:16.839 --> 00:33:22.759 education. So just because you saw a great add a great magazine, a 378 00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:29.519 great video from another institution, before you go and copy that, say can 379 00:33:29.559 --> 00:33:34.200 I support this all the way through? Marketing is so important. It's how 380 00:33:34.240 --> 00:33:42.160 we tell the world about ourselves. Make sure you have an authentic message. 381 00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:47.920 If you say I'm going to recruit working adult students, okay, ask yourself. 382 00:33:49.079 --> 00:33:54.079 Have I set up evening and weekend classes? Do have online maximized to 383 00:33:54.119 --> 00:34:00.799 the extent that program allows? Do I understand why the students in this program 384 00:34:00.920 --> 00:34:07.079 will need in terms of support? That then the marketing becomes really fun because 385 00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:10.960 then you can you can you can ask the students in the program, you 386 00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:15.159 can ask the graduates. I mean some of our best videos, our videos 387 00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:21.159 that we we take interviewing students as they graduate, and it's and you can 388 00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:27.519 they will describe for our future prospective student what was so great about the experience 389 00:34:27.519 --> 00:34:32.159 they had at our colleges. So I guess I'd say marketing critically important and 390 00:34:32.199 --> 00:34:40.719 connected to everything else in the organization approach these key areas, like finance, 391 00:34:40.840 --> 00:34:47.719 like marketing, like enrollment academics, in a cohesive way. Dr Horowitz, 392 00:34:49.239 --> 00:34:52.920 thank you very much for being a guest on the hired marketer podcast. We 393 00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:57.920 appreciate what you've brought to our listeners today. For our listeners that would like 394 00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:02.000 to reach out and contact you maybe get more information about what you offer, 395 00:35:02.719 --> 00:35:07.400 how would they best do that? Well, first of all, let me 396 00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:14.039 thank you, troy and bark very engaging conversation. I would love it if 397 00:35:14.119 --> 00:35:19.719 people would come to our website, TCS E D system dot e Du. 398 00:35:19.960 --> 00:35:24.320 It's gonna tell you a lot about how we radically cooperate and you'll be able 399 00:35:24.360 --> 00:35:30.239 to be able to click through to each one of our colleges and their websites 400 00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:35.119 as well. And then I'd be happy if people would take a look on 401 00:35:35.199 --> 00:35:42.760 my linkedin at Dr Michael Horowitz. I publish regularly in the Forbes Nonprofit Council 402 00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:47.039 and I link the articles there on my Linkedin, as well as podcasts and 403 00:35:47.159 --> 00:35:54.199 other content like this great discussion we've just had. Thank you, bark. 404 00:35:54.280 --> 00:35:59.519 Do you have any final fonts? Yeah, I thought this was a great 405 00:35:59.559 --> 00:36:01.119 conversation and Dr Harrowitz, thank you so much for being on the show. 406 00:36:01.280 --> 00:36:05.519 A couple of things that I wanted to kind of point out as as takeaways 407 00:36:05.559 --> 00:36:07.280 for our listeners, and if you need to go back and listen to part 408 00:36:07.320 --> 00:36:09.760 of this again, I would encourage you to do that. Talked a lot 409 00:36:09.800 --> 00:36:15.480 about radical collaboration and I think that the what Dr Harrowitz and the and the 410 00:36:15.480 --> 00:36:19.760 TCS system are doing is pretty phodomenal and I think it's a it's it's something 411 00:36:19.800 --> 00:36:22.440 that's going to need to continue to develop. I think he had kind of 412 00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:25.719 said at the beginning about the idea of being able to see more and more 413 00:36:25.719 --> 00:36:30.840 of those types of systems happening. But I would also challenge you just internally 414 00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:36.800 in your own college, in your own cabinet level, radical collaboration anywhere is 415 00:36:36.840 --> 00:36:39.800 going to benefit everything, and so being able to work together as a marketing 416 00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:43.719 team with the enrollment team, being able to work as an enrollment team with 417 00:36:43.760 --> 00:36:49.159 the student success and student life team, everyone working together and collaborating in a 418 00:36:49.280 --> 00:36:52.400 radical way for the end user, the student, is going to really make 419 00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:57.000 a big difference in your institution. So I would really really take that up. 420 00:36:57.039 --> 00:36:59.599 On on some of the ideas that Dr Harrowits has talked about, I 421 00:36:59.639 --> 00:37:00.960 would all so really like to point out the fact that we talked a lot 422 00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:07.039 about the idea of unique and authentic messaging and especially we talked a lot about 423 00:37:07.079 --> 00:37:10.119 the adult students and the idea that there's gonna be different audiences, the idea 424 00:37:10.159 --> 00:37:15.159 of creating different personas and different marketing aspects of to these audiences and being able 425 00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:19.760 to deliver your authentic message. I think to Dr Her it's his point. 426 00:37:20.519 --> 00:37:22.719 You need to really be authentic and to define who you are as an institution. 427 00:37:23.119 --> 00:37:27.199 You're not going to attract every student out there, nor should you. 428 00:37:27.199 --> 00:37:30.079 You should attract the ones that are going to succeed the most at your institution 429 00:37:30.199 --> 00:37:32.559 and being authentic and leading with that. I think that's going to be the 430 00:37:34.039 --> 00:37:37.440 key for you to really have some success in that. And I think another 431 00:37:37.480 --> 00:37:39.719 thing just that kind of is the overarching thing that we've talked about here today 432 00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:45.079 that we didn't really define, but there's a great book called story brand and 433 00:37:45.079 --> 00:37:46.760 it's the idea that when you are doing any kind of marketing, you want 434 00:37:46.760 --> 00:37:52.480 to use the your end user, as the hero and and and your school 435 00:37:52.519 --> 00:37:55.440 then is the supporting it's it's kind of like the Luke skywalker and Yoda. 436 00:37:55.480 --> 00:38:00.440 Your student is the Luke Skywalker and you're gonna help them with their journey and 437 00:38:00.440 --> 00:38:02.320 you're gonna be the Yoda to come along. But when you're doing your marketing, 438 00:38:02.719 --> 00:38:06.800 it's not about you as the school, it's about the student and where 439 00:38:06.840 --> 00:38:08.480 they're going to be at the end of the day because of the experience that 440 00:38:08.519 --> 00:38:12.280 they had with you. And so we want to make sure that everything that 441 00:38:12.280 --> 00:38:15.320 we're doing from our marketing standpoint, it's radically collaborating with others on campus. 442 00:38:15.639 --> 00:38:20.000 We're delivering our unique and authentic story and we're focused on the fact that the 443 00:38:20.039 --> 00:38:22.880 student is the hero. So thanks again, Dr Harvards. It's been a 444 00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:24.760 great pleasure to have you on the show. That was a great summary and 445 00:38:25.480 --> 00:38:30.840 something for me to learn with that reference. Thank you for a great conversation. 446 00:38:31.800 --> 00:38:37.119 The Higher Ed Marketer podcast. It's sponsored by Kaylor solutions and education marketing 447 00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:45.400 and branding agency and by think patented a Marketing Execution Company combining print, digital 448 00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:51.800 and mailing for Higher Ed Solutions. On behalf of Bart Kaylor. I'm troy 449 00:38:51.960 --> 00:38:58.639 singer. Thank you for joining us. You've been listening to the Higher Ed 450 00:38:58.719 --> 00:39:01.960 Marketer too, sure that you never miss an episode. Subscribe to the show 451 00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:07.880 in your favorite podcast player. If you're listening with apple PODCASTS, we'd love 452 00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:10.360 for you to leave a quick rating of the show. Simply tap the number 453 00:39:10.360 --> 00:39:14.719 of stars you think the podcast deserves. Until next time,