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Aug. 23, 2022

Increasing Outcomes for Higher Ed Leaders Through Radical Collaboration

Increasing Outcomes for Higher Ed Leaders Through Radical Collaboration

Businesses and organizations lose the most impact and productivity by not working together. The same goes for higher education. To solve big problems, you must be able to cooperate with others.  

Dr. Michael Horowitz is the President of TCS Education System. TCS is the community solution for higher education and is all about working collaboratively to advance institutional sustainability, student success, and community impact. Dr. Horowitz brings excellent insights into the ideas of collaboration and marketing within higher education.  

Join us as we discuss:

  •  What radical cooperation means in Higher Education.
  •  How schools can better use benchmarking and KPIs to set and achieve goals. 
  •  Dr. Horowitz’s advice to other colleges and universities. 

The Higher Ed Marketer podcast is sponsored by Caylor Solutions, an Education Marketing and Branding Agency, and by Think Patented, a Marketing Execution, Printing and Mailing provider of Higher Ed solutions.

    

 

Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:06.320 The High Red Marketer podcast is sponsored by the ZEM APP enabling colleges and universities 2 00:00:06.519 --> 00:00:15.199 to engage interested students before they even apply. You're listening to the Higher Ed 3 00:00:15.279 --> 00:00:20.519 Marketer, a podcast geared towards marketing professionals in higher education. This show will 4 00:00:20.559 --> 00:00:25.440 tackle all sorts of questions related to student recruitment, donor relations, marketing trends, 5 00:00:25.440 --> 00:00:30.239 new technologies and so much more. If you're looking for conversations centered around 6 00:00:30.239 --> 00:00:34.399 where the industry is going, this podcast is for you. Let's get into 7 00:00:34.439 --> 00:00:44.880 the show. Today on the Higher Ed Marketer Podcast, Mart and I speak 8 00:00:44.920 --> 00:00:52.000 with Dr Michael Horowitz of the T C S Education System about increasing outcomes for 9 00:00:52.119 --> 00:00:57.719 higher ed leaders through formal and courageous collaboration, and I love the conversation that 10 00:00:57.799 --> 00:01:03.359 we had with Dr Horowitz. Uh He is an expert on how to use 11 00:01:03.439 --> 00:01:07.560 benchmarking and also how to market to adult learners, and I believe he shares 12 00:01:07.599 --> 00:01:12.680 a lot of best cases for our listeners to do the same at their institutions. 13 00:01:14.079 --> 00:01:15.439 That's right, Troy. I think that there's a lot of really good 14 00:01:15.480 --> 00:01:19.840 information in this episode. Dr Horowitz kind of spend some time at the beginning 15 00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:23.159 talking a little bit about TCS and and how they do the radical collaboration with 16 00:01:23.239 --> 00:01:27.879 among different schools and and how they set that up as part of their organization. 17 00:01:29.280 --> 00:01:30.519 But I think it is really kind of critical when we get get to 18 00:01:30.519 --> 00:01:34.319 the point, maybe about five ten minutes into the interview, we start talking 19 00:01:34.359 --> 00:01:38.920 about adult learning and really some specifics on the expertise that Dr Horowitz brings with 20 00:01:38.920 --> 00:01:42.840 with his experience with adult learning and and how to market to them and how 21 00:01:42.879 --> 00:01:47.079 TCS does a lot of that marketing as well. I think it's really important 22 00:01:47.079 --> 00:01:51.159 to listen to that and really understand a little bit about how that radical collaboration 23 00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:55.920 can play out even at your own school. He is a great leader in 24 00:01:55.920 --> 00:02:05.319 interesting conversationalists and here's our conversation with Dr Michael Horwitz. Dr Horwitz, before 25 00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:09.599 we get into our conversation about the TCS education system, I would like to 26 00:02:09.639 --> 00:02:15.400 ask you is there anything that you've learned recently that's interesting or knew that you 27 00:02:15.439 --> 00:02:22.840 can share? Well, that's a great question, Troy. Interestingly enough, 28 00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:30.080 I've learned this morning in the Higher Ed press that two universities announced that they 29 00:02:30.080 --> 00:02:38.080 were going to try to form a nonprofit education system and we had to mention 30 00:02:38.319 --> 00:02:45.599 in the article and I'm excited to see that people are recognizing the power of 31 00:02:45.599 --> 00:02:51.319 the model and understanding it. A few years ago, when we were talking 32 00:02:52.199 --> 00:02:57.199 to the leadership of WASSK are major creditor, they asked me if we could 33 00:02:57.240 --> 00:03:01.800 have a hundred colleges within TC s and I said I don't know that that 34 00:03:01.960 --> 00:03:07.840 is our goal or should be, but I'd like to see a hundred systems 35 00:03:07.400 --> 00:03:13.599 like ours take hold. And so that that was a fun way to start 36 00:03:13.599 --> 00:03:16.400 off today. To read about that, of course, in a great way 37 00:03:16.439 --> 00:03:22.319 to segment, or excuse me, segue into our conversation if you would tell 38 00:03:22.360 --> 00:03:28.919 everyone who you are, your role and what tcs education system the model that 39 00:03:29.000 --> 00:03:34.879 it promotes and works under. Okay, great, thank you. So I'm 40 00:03:34.919 --> 00:03:44.400 Michael Horowitz, PhD. I have a doctorate in clinical psychology and trained to 41 00:03:44.439 --> 00:03:52.080 be a psychologist and a psychoanalyst. I got very interested along the way in 42 00:03:52.240 --> 00:04:00.599 the promise of psychology as an independent profession and became very active and spent many 43 00:04:00.680 --> 00:04:08.960 years in schools of professional psychology and different roles, faculty, administrator, eventually 44 00:04:09.080 --> 00:04:15.400 president of the Chicago School of Professional Psychology, and I served in that role 45 00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:25.759 from two thousand. In twenty nine I decided to found UH TCS education system, 46 00:04:25.839 --> 00:04:31.120 the community solution and higher education. I had wonderful colleagues and wonderful board 47 00:04:31.160 --> 00:04:36.439 members who supported that vision. What I came to understand is, even though 48 00:04:36.519 --> 00:04:42.920 we had had great success growing the Chicago School from about two hundred students to 49 00:04:43.040 --> 00:04:49.839 over three thousand and having a national footprint, that we needed to bring colleges 50 00:04:49.879 --> 00:04:57.319 and universities together in a formally governed model. And so in twenty Oh nine 51 00:04:57.519 --> 00:05:04.040 we created the framework and in twenty ten we went live UH and today we're 52 00:05:04.120 --> 00:05:10.879 up to five colleges and universities. Were on the cusp of a sixth university 53 00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:16.920 joining us in, and so we are an integrated nonprofit system and what we're 54 00:05:16.959 --> 00:05:27.639 about is working collaboratively to advance institutional sustainability, student success and community impact. 55 00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:31.360 Thank you. And I think one of the ways that you describe that is 56 00:05:31.399 --> 00:05:39.120 with the term the power of radical cooperation or radical co operation. Can you 57 00:05:39.160 --> 00:05:44.199 expand upon that? I'd love to, because it's uh it's our bread and 58 00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:49.360 butter. You know, there's that old saw that culture eat strategy, and 59 00:05:51.040 --> 00:06:00.279 when you create an integrated nonprofit system and you ask faculty, Staff Boards to 60 00:06:00.439 --> 00:06:06.439 work across the nation and really across the globe, because we've continued to advance 61 00:06:08.040 --> 00:06:13.399 our activity around the world. You have to double down every day on the 62 00:06:13.399 --> 00:06:18.759 notion of its one organization, one system. We're working to support each other. 63 00:06:19.600 --> 00:06:28.160 You know, Higher Ed is kind of distinct in being radically non cooperative, 64 00:06:28.920 --> 00:06:32.519 and that might be another podcast where we could look at the reasons for 65 00:06:32.639 --> 00:06:40.639 that. If you go to most sectors you know of of society, there's 66 00:06:40.680 --> 00:06:46.920 no way to solve big problems without working in what I would define as a 67 00:06:46.040 --> 00:06:56.439 radically cooperative way. I just read a piece on Uston having the most success 68 00:06:56.600 --> 00:07:00.959 in dealing with homelessness and of any of big cities, and what was striking 69 00:07:01.199 --> 00:07:09.720 as part of the discussion was various agencies and nonprofits that interface with that population 70 00:07:10.120 --> 00:07:14.839 had to work with each other in a cooperative way that they never had before. 71 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:21.040 So radical cooperation means that's our our biggest cultural value. We're looking at 72 00:07:21.079 --> 00:07:26.639 each other as teammates. We're trying to figure out the best way forward for 73 00:07:26.680 --> 00:07:30.920 our students, for our colleges, and you asked about what I've learned recently, 74 00:07:31.199 --> 00:07:36.120 but I've learned things over many years. There's a great ted talk, 75 00:07:36.240 --> 00:07:43.199 one of my favorites, by a Boston consulting person, Eve Moreau, that 76 00:07:43.319 --> 00:07:50.279 talks about where businesses and organizations lose the most impact and productivity is by not 77 00:07:50.480 --> 00:07:56.319 working together. And so it's it's those are not things you can necessarily measure 78 00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:03.839 on a budget or in a patric but you can feel it and you will 79 00:08:03.879 --> 00:08:07.319 see the impact on those matrics. Yeah, I think that's so interesting that 80 00:08:07.399 --> 00:08:11.439 you say that, Dr Harwin's, because I've I've worked with Lumina Foundation for 81 00:08:11.600 --> 00:08:15.639 Education for years and they, you know, they have had their their big 82 00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:18.920 goal, the goal where they want to see six of the you know, 83 00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:26.399 adults in the United States having a post you know, Post Post secondary degree 84 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:30.519 of some kind, whether it's in professional training or or bachelor or otherwise. 85 00:08:31.079 --> 00:08:33.600 And I think sometimes about the idea that as higher education marketers, we get 86 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:37.279 so worried that we're competing against each of us. A lot of times we're 87 00:08:37.279 --> 00:08:41.159 competing against life. Um You know a lot of students don't end up in 88 00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:45.840 our programs because of life and not necessarily because they go to the other school. 89 00:08:46.360 --> 00:08:50.000 And so I think that even as marketers, this idea of radical cooperation 90 00:08:50.120 --> 00:08:54.399 is appealing to me because maybe you can tell us a little bit about how 91 00:08:54.759 --> 00:08:56.399 I mean when I think about, you know, organizations like yours, I 92 00:08:56.399 --> 00:09:01.320 know a lot of this. The State Independent College Associations often have you purchasing, 93 00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:05.679 you know, agreements that they'll do with with large, you know, 94 00:09:05.759 --> 00:09:09.480 software vendors or I t or different things like that. But what you're talking 95 00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:13.480 about goes beyond just purchasing. I mean we're talking about radical cooperation in other 96 00:09:13.559 --> 00:09:20.600 aspects of the of the campus as well. Correct, absolutely so. I'm 97 00:09:20.600 --> 00:09:28.759 glad you brought up that experience of state associations. My ten years as president 98 00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:33.519 of the Chicago School I went to the Illinois version and there are always great 99 00:09:33.559 --> 00:09:41.480 aspirations to do things together. It seemed like the core emphasis, and that's 100 00:09:41.559 --> 00:09:46.919 my observation on most of the associations, was to lobby as a group for 101 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:52.440 state funding. That's absolutely important and the right thing to do. I didn't 102 00:09:52.440 --> 00:10:00.000 see anything else of impact and part of my diagnosis or desire to do something 103 00:10:00.159 --> 00:10:05.279 different is you have to formally tie it together at the governing level. If 104 00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:11.000 you don't have buy in from the boards of trustees and the leadership the rest 105 00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:16.200 of it's not gonna work. There are too many competing factors. And so 106 00:10:16.279 --> 00:10:24.279 I started tcs from an academic premise, that bringing colleges with passion for their 107 00:10:24.320 --> 00:10:33.039 programs, their communities together. Uh, there was absolutely every expectation will will 108 00:10:33.080 --> 00:10:37.840 be better as a group. Um, and you're absolutely right that you should 109 00:10:37.919 --> 00:10:43.600 be able, and we do by at better cost or better quality, or 110 00:10:43.720 --> 00:10:50.360 both, by being as a group. And that that's one small part of 111 00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:54.200 it. Ah, but really the biggest part you have to get right up 112 00:10:54.200 --> 00:11:01.360 front is how's everybody at every level going to commit to this being a united 113 00:11:01.399 --> 00:11:07.360 effort? Then the purchasing is almost the easiest. Like well, of course, 114 00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:15.600 because but again here's where culture comes in. We we don't necessarily strive 115 00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:20.799 to say we're gonna save money. We'd rather create the biggest impact with our 116 00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:24.799 dollar. So often that means our colleges might be spending the same but for 117 00:11:24.879 --> 00:11:30.759 something much higher level. So as if you're going to do that with technology, 118 00:11:31.240 --> 00:11:35.960 you have to have the agreement. We can debate the system and then 119 00:11:35.960 --> 00:11:41.639 we're going to decide it's one system, because then then that's where the breakdown 120 00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:46.080 happens in my experience, when you don't have it tied up at the top 121 00:11:46.200 --> 00:11:50.919 level. So we're all in agreement. Let's look at different systems, let's 122 00:11:50.919 --> 00:11:54.480 have presentations and then let's agree we're gonna pick one so we can drive the 123 00:11:54.519 --> 00:11:58.600 best price, we can get the most expertise and off we go. And 124 00:11:58.679 --> 00:12:03.480 sure there's there are arguments to be made for system B, C and D 125 00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:09.360 that we didn't choose, but you're gonna get the high impact from that commitment 126 00:12:09.399 --> 00:12:11.840 to being a team right. And is it true, too, that the 127 00:12:11.879 --> 00:12:16.559 idea that that even with Um, you know, said earlier when I set 128 00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:20.559 up my question, that you know, we're often competing against life. I 129 00:12:20.600 --> 00:12:24.039 think, though, that in the nature of the way education is going. 130 00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:28.679 I mean we've seen radical shifts and, you know, telephones and other industries, 131 00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:31.960 computer and how you know, there's you know, somebody comes in with 132 00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:35.240 like the iphone came in and it totally upended everything that we knew about a 133 00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:39.480 mobile phone. I think that we're on the cusp of something like that happening 134 00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:43.240 in Higher Ed and I think that's going to be outside of what is known 135 00:12:43.240 --> 00:12:48.240 as the traditional Higher Ed. I mean we've we've heard talks from Google and 136 00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:54.679 other large corporations about ideas that they have to fix the brokenness of of of 137 00:12:54.759 --> 00:12:58.600 higher education. And so I think in some ways, Um, you know, 138 00:12:58.600 --> 00:13:01.000 people are always going to need an always want to have traditional higher end, 139 00:13:01.080 --> 00:13:05.799 that the experience, the student experience, everything that there is in traditional 140 00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:09.039 higher end. That's always going to be something that's going to be wanted. 141 00:13:09.080 --> 00:13:13.840 But my fear is is that if we're not doing this radical cooperation and we're 142 00:13:13.879 --> 00:13:16.000 just kind of putting our head down the sands and doing our own things, 143 00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:20.879 something big is going to come along and gonna shift the entire playing field. 144 00:13:20.919 --> 00:13:22.639 Is it? Is that part of what you were talking about or thinking about 145 00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:28.919 with the with the TCS system as well? Uh, I agree with most 146 00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:33.799 of what you said. I'll temper. I'll temper with that. Higher Ed, 147 00:13:33.919 --> 00:13:39.399 for better or for worse, has been resistant and resilient in fending off 148 00:13:41.039 --> 00:13:46.159 a lot of innovation. So again, that that that requires a few books 149 00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:50.960 to be written about it, because it's got to be more than ten years 150 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:58.679 ago where Clayton Christensen h wrote that and he's a great theorist. But basically, 151 00:13:58.080 --> 00:14:01.279 you know, America and the Higher Ed's going to get wiped out and 152 00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:09.320 we're just going to see big for profit online take over everything. And you 153 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:16.720 know, and and he had good presentations sort of explaining how, for a 154 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:22.799 while the American car industry got wiped out by innovations coming from Japan and other 155 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:30.320 countries. So in a way I'm gonna say not so fast. I'll focus 156 00:14:30.360 --> 00:14:39.279 in on what we do right. We were affording high access two adult students, 157 00:14:39.919 --> 00:14:50.200 by and large seeking important professional degrees. So these are degrees and professions 158 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:56.720 that are overwhelmingly licensed. They take a big commitment, whether it's becoming a 159 00:14:56.759 --> 00:15:03.519 psychologist, a lawyer, a medical doctor. So the way we're teaching in 160 00:15:03.559 --> 00:15:09.320 those spaces absolutely is getting transformed by technology. But you're not going to be 161 00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:15.120 able to go online and, you know, take a course oftwered by a 162 00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:20.039 tech company and then like Hey, I'd like to practice medicine. So it's 163 00:15:20.840 --> 00:15:26.200 it's UH. Doug Liederman, one of the founders of inside Higher Ed, 164 00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:31.720 made a good point uh at a West conference a few years ago, that 165 00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:37.080 the public thinks of the American higher education system, there is no higher education 166 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:46.399 system. There's multiple ecosystems. So TCS lives largely in this word world of 167 00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:56.360 passionate adult students seeking pretty sophisticated levels of education. So how we market, 168 00:15:56.480 --> 00:16:03.159 how we teach, how we enroll, absolutely shifting in response to technology. 169 00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:12.600 At the same time shifting or staying static in response two regulatory agencies professions that 170 00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:17.840 will have as big as, say, as as the tech companies. So 171 00:16:17.919 --> 00:16:22.919 that that I'm a big embracer of technology, but we we make a mistake 172 00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:27.200 with higher ad uh, they're the quickest to change, you know. But 173 00:16:27.240 --> 00:16:33.000 now we're saying, as we learn about layoffs in this economy, the tech 174 00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:37.200 companies are going to be the first to contract and we're not. Everyone is 175 00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:41.159 training to work at Google. We're all going to use Google, but not 176 00:16:41.240 --> 00:16:45.720 everyone is gonna earn their living or be fulfilled or get a job there. 177 00:16:45.960 --> 00:16:48.759 We talk a lot about it on the show. Schools are really struggling today 178 00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:53.240 that make the same at spin work. CPMS are up eight year over a 179 00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:57.879 year. On facebook and instagram. Our College clients are no longer looking for 180 00:16:57.919 --> 00:17:03.440 rented audiences. They're looking for an owned community where they can engage students even 181 00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:07.680 before they apply. This is why Zemi has become so crucial for our clients, 182 00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:12.160 with over one million students, close to ten thou five star ratings consistently 183 00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:17.519 ranked as one of the top social lapps and recently one of Apple's hot APPs 184 00:17:17.519 --> 00:17:19.960 of the week. There simply isn't anything out there like it, and we 185 00:17:21.039 --> 00:17:23.559 have seen it all. Ze Me not only provides the best space for student 186 00:17:23.599 --> 00:17:29.480 engagement, but the most unique and actionable data for their one sixty college and 187 00:17:29.599 --> 00:17:33.319 university partners. We know firsthand from our clients that Ze me is a must 188 00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:38.680 have strategy for Gen Z. Check them out now at colleges dot Zem dot 189 00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:45.039 com. That's colleges dot Z E M E dot Com. And yes, 190 00:17:45.559 --> 00:17:51.480 tell them Barton Troy sent you. Thank you, Dr Horowitz, and I'm 191 00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:59.079 going to encourage our listeners to investigate and research tcs and what you're doing there, 192 00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:03.839 because I think they're a lot of great that is happening that others can 193 00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:07.839 learn from. I do want to switch gears a little bit because I want 194 00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:12.839 to make sure we offer some advice for the schools that aren't, uh, 195 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:18.559 in a consortiution like yours. But we also know that you have some expertise 196 00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:23.039 in benchmarking and would like to ask how you feel schools can better utilize benchmarking 197 00:18:23.680 --> 00:18:33.880 and attain progress within what they're currently doing. Yeah, I mean, I'm 198 00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:38.240 pretty basic in this regard. I'll give you a few. I'm sometimes amazed 199 00:18:38.279 --> 00:18:45.279 that people are not using these benchmarks and I will say on any given day 200 00:18:45.319 --> 00:18:48.720 not everything we do works in a given day, a given year. So 201 00:18:48.759 --> 00:18:55.359 our arrows aren't always up from one standpoint. If you're a nonprofit college, 202 00:18:55.400 --> 00:19:00.000 you need to be operating with the goal of the surplus each and every year. 203 00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:06.359 That's a pretty basic metric. It's it's stunning actually how many colleges don't 204 00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:11.440 and then they're wondering why things are getting tougher, why they're discounting more. 205 00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:17.039 I mean there's a lot behind that. Get Your Business Model Right. If 206 00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:21.400 you're losing money every year, there's it's it will start to spiral out of 207 00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:27.519 control. We're so lucky. We're not lucky because I think we choose people 208 00:19:27.559 --> 00:19:33.000 well. Our colleges do. Our leaders are really committed to that. Sometimes 209 00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:37.599 there's a tough year, they don't have it, but because you know the 210 00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:45.640 year they are they have that cushion. We are laser focused on student success. 211 00:19:45.799 --> 00:19:49.880 The most important metric is how many students complete and graduate, and then 212 00:19:49.880 --> 00:19:56.519 a further metric is people. Hopefully, since we're meeting for the first time. 213 00:19:56.759 --> 00:20:00.799 You won't be tired of me talking about it. People get tired me 214 00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:04.720 saying the loan default rate is is critical and people say, well, that's 215 00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:14.079 kind of away from education. Like now most students are borrowing money. It's 216 00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:18.960 a big commitment to get to a certain place in life. We hope not 217 00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:22.839 only to have a rewarding profession, but they've been changed and impacted by learning 218 00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:27.599 and practicing that profession. We want to see them finish the program get licensed, 219 00:20:27.640 --> 00:20:32.240 if they're in a license your program, and pay back the loan. 220 00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:37.319 That tells us that all the way through it's working, so that that those 221 00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:42.799 are first and foremost among the metrics, the student ones. If the student 222 00:20:42.839 --> 00:20:48.240 ones are working, if you're graduating most of the students, they're paying back 223 00:20:48.279 --> 00:20:52.000 their loans. The rest will follow. On the budgets, we we have 224 00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:56.720 remarkable, you know, data and reports. So we of course look at 225 00:20:57.400 --> 00:21:06.000 inquiries and applications and conversions, but at the end of the day we don't 226 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:11.000 care if we have more inquiries or less. We want to get applications from 227 00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:15.119 qualified students and, more importantly, get them to where they hope to go. 228 00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:18.279 Yeah, I think that that's such an important thing when you talk about 229 00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:22.880 benchmarking, because I I often talk here on the podcast, we've had a 230 00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:26.839 lot of conversations about it as well as just direct conversations when I talk with 231 00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:29.640 my clients, is just, you know, what are those key performance indicators? 232 00:21:29.640 --> 00:21:33.839 I mean you've talked about some more um macro, you know, benchmarking 233 00:21:33.920 --> 00:21:40.359 with with default loans and you know, retention to graduation rates and things like 234 00:21:40.400 --> 00:21:44.079 that. But I think even when we get down into the marketing, uh, 235 00:21:44.119 --> 00:21:45.680 you know, when we're looking at, as you just kind of alluded 236 00:21:45.720 --> 00:21:49.519 to, you know, those campaigns of what are our conversion rates? What 237 00:21:49.559 --> 00:21:55.000 are what are we looking at and having the ability and the tools to be 238 00:21:55.039 --> 00:21:59.079 able to set up those key key performance indicators, know the ones that we 239 00:21:59.079 --> 00:22:02.720 should be looking and looking for. I still find a lot of people are 240 00:22:02.759 --> 00:22:07.079 confused on, you know, whether impressions are important or conversions are imp important. 241 00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:10.200 I mean, you know, I'm more concerned about how many students I 242 00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:14.240 have in the fall or in the next cycle rather than how many people saw 243 00:22:14.279 --> 00:22:17.960 my billboard on the interstate. And so I want to make sure you're exactly 244 00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:22.960 right. Don't don't get confused by the glitzy right and now your core markers. 245 00:22:23.079 --> 00:22:30.039 Right. What what are we interested in? Enrollments of qualified students. 246 00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:33.039 We I mean, I know enough to be dangerous. I do love marketing, 247 00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:37.640 but we have great leadership in our marketing team. I rely on them 248 00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:45.000 for the expertise. But I know that currently we're experimenting with really dialing down 249 00:22:45.640 --> 00:22:52.319 lead vendor, as an example, and really focus on better quality applications. 250 00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:55.880 The best ones, you know, are the ones that will find us through 251 00:22:55.920 --> 00:22:59.920 our own websites. So yeah, if inquiries go way down but we end 252 00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:06.680 up with equally strong or hopefully better starting class, then that's even better. 253 00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:14.640 The other thing recently and we I think it's critical from a culture standpoint to 254 00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:18.880 always look at what's going on in the larger world. So we we have 255 00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:23.000 an annual operating review with all of our college leadership teams. We had a 256 00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:30.759 great marketing panel of some of our major outside vendors and the representative from Google 257 00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:34.759 made a really interesting point in the way that people could get she asked someone 258 00:23:36.079 --> 00:23:40.759 how they got to the meeting that day and the person said, you know, 259 00:23:41.079 --> 00:23:48.480 I drove my car, and she said, but yeah, what about 260 00:23:48.519 --> 00:23:52.119 the highway? What about the traffic? How did you get there. So 261 00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:57.759 what we realized, what was really tangible, is someone may have clicked on 262 00:23:57.799 --> 00:24:04.039 our website but they had eight different engagements that we haven't captured because they talked 263 00:24:04.039 --> 00:24:11.319 to an alarm, they went to a healthcare setting and their psychologists. It 264 00:24:11.480 --> 00:24:15.440 wasn't alarm. They maybe saw the billboard. So it's uh, that was 265 00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:21.319 a very interesting point. The other one she said is that now cent if 266 00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:25.839 I'm rembering correctly, of time online is spent looking at videos. Oh, 267 00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:30.559 that's really interesting. It's it's fast. Yeah, I may have gotten I 268 00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:33.279 maybe don't hold me to that number, but it was very high. That 269 00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:41.880 certainly suggests that we should be producing compelling video. I agree with you and 270 00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:45.880 I know that TCS spends a lot of times focused on on adult learners and 271 00:24:45.880 --> 00:24:48.440 and a lot of the work that that Um, you know, I have 272 00:24:48.519 --> 00:24:52.160 experience in is is kind of in that small to medium sized school because a 273 00:24:52.200 --> 00:24:56.400 lot of times those schools are the ones that are really leveraging the adult learning 274 00:24:56.519 --> 00:25:00.799 and the online modality to make sure that they can kind of, you know, 275 00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:03.519 increase their net revenue. And so I think that, Um, you 276 00:25:03.559 --> 00:25:07.799 know, I'm curious when you start thinking about everything that tcs is doing too, 277 00:25:08.039 --> 00:25:11.480 to kind of serve those schools for that adult learning, you know, 278 00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:14.799 as you put it, the professional and the licensing types of things with nursing 279 00:25:14.839 --> 00:25:18.920 and psychology and those types of things. I feel like it's some you know, 280 00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:22.359 there's a lot of probably the biggest thing that I could say, and 281 00:25:22.519 --> 00:25:25.880 I guess I'm trying to get you to kind of validate this, and what 282 00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:27.880 I'm hearing and what you're seeing is that, Um, you know, you 283 00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:33.240 have to you have to market differently to adults than you do traditional students, 284 00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:36.440 and I think a lot of schools fail to think about that. They think 285 00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:38.119 it's as easy as just, well, if we buy some Google ads and 286 00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:41.279 we're good and we're set right. I mean we just run them through the 287 00:25:41.319 --> 00:25:48.559 same I agree with that. I'll take it. I shared with our marketing 288 00:25:48.599 --> 00:25:56.559 team recently. Another organization I admire is the Zingerman community of businesses and their 289 00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:03.240 CO founder, Ari Weinswag, has a new interesting weekly email where he both 290 00:26:03.680 --> 00:26:08.640 sells his product, their food business, but has kind of a philosophical take 291 00:26:08.759 --> 00:26:14.880 on business, and what he wrote about recently was marketing with dignity and what 292 00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:19.680 you're describing when you when you do the Google ads. Where's the substance? 293 00:26:19.799 --> 00:26:29.559 To me, marketing with dignity is where authentically and transparently conveying what is positive 294 00:26:29.559 --> 00:26:33.440 about our institution, what the program is. There's historically been this thought of, 295 00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:37.799 you know, let's hide the information and then they'll want it more, 296 00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:44.680 and that we're living in an age where we have to be very transparent the 297 00:26:44.799 --> 00:26:51.039 costs the benefit. Here's how the program works. So to market well, 298 00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:56.000 you have to the institution has to be geared to that student. You have 299 00:26:56.079 --> 00:27:00.160 to have faculty that are embracing of the student. That comes with work and 300 00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:07.359 life experience. So I'm at a great interaction at Pacific Oaks, one of 301 00:27:07.400 --> 00:27:14.640 our colleges. One time a m a prospective student was being brought through with 302 00:27:14.680 --> 00:27:18.720 admissions and I happened to be with my wife, who is an early childhood 303 00:27:18.759 --> 00:27:25.039 psychologists a very resident with what Pacific Oaks does, and we stopped and had 304 00:27:25.079 --> 00:27:30.359 a chat about you know, this student was currently working as an early childhood 305 00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:33.519 teacher and my wife was well, you're gonna love it here because you know 306 00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:37.839 those are the students that come here. You're gonna get to apply what you're 307 00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:41.920 doing every day with the classroom. The faculty really worked that way. You 308 00:27:41.960 --> 00:27:48.519 could see her face brightened, because a lot of institutions, I don't think 309 00:27:48.519 --> 00:27:52.359 of that. And so it doesn't matter how many Google ads the student comes 310 00:27:52.359 --> 00:27:56.559 in and I've literally seen faculty at some institutions say no, we don't want 311 00:27:56.599 --> 00:28:00.319 any prior experience. You know, the students an empty hearten and our job 312 00:28:00.440 --> 00:28:03.440 is to fill it. Right. But you know, the other thing I'll 313 00:28:03.440 --> 00:28:10.160 say about the nomenclature. The majority of American Higher Ed today are working adults, 314 00:28:10.519 --> 00:28:15.640 even the UNDERGRADS. Uh, I think the last number I saw was 315 00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:18.200 the twenty five years old and most of them have jobs. So the the 316 00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:22.880 campus with the eighteen to twenty two year old it's still a big segment. 317 00:28:23.279 --> 00:28:29.680 It's not the majority. So I'm not sure why we're talking about that. 318 00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:33.960 Is Traditional. Maybe traditional is right. It's certainly not the norm. And 319 00:28:34.039 --> 00:28:41.920 so yeah, we we have to approach students fundamentally different way and that will 320 00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:45.759 of course inform the marketing. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. 321 00:28:45.759 --> 00:28:48.920 I mean it has to be a whole different way of looking at the 322 00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:52.880 student and the experience rather than just saying, oh well, the only difference 323 00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:56.519 is the modality in the age. Well, now there's a whole different way 324 00:28:56.519 --> 00:29:00.279 of looking at it from a marketing standpoint and what their needs are, how 325 00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:04.720 they make their decisions, how they respond to you know why they respond in 326 00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:07.839 the way that they do. I mean they're checking off boxes that I need 327 00:29:07.839 --> 00:29:10.640 to get this done, I need to do this and I need to go 328 00:29:10.680 --> 00:29:14.039 do my laundry. I don't have time to yeah, and then and and 329 00:29:14.079 --> 00:29:18.960 they you're absolutely right, when you stay competing with life. Uh. And 330 00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:25.240 we're going to do a project with Google analytics in the coming years, led 331 00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:30.079 by our chief academic officer and some of our other great leaders, to try 332 00:29:30.079 --> 00:29:34.480 and understand if we can earlier in the journey. Is it academic? Is 333 00:29:34.519 --> 00:29:40.039 it financial? Is it personal? What can we do to intervene and help? 334 00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:45.599 A right? That's Great, Dr Howarts, that's really fascinating when I 335 00:29:45.640 --> 00:29:49.079 think about how adult students are different, and I think that it goes back 336 00:29:49.119 --> 00:29:55.039 to and and you know with your background in in Um psychology and different things 337 00:29:55.119 --> 00:29:59.039 like that, there's a true Um psychology of marketing. Could you talk on 338 00:29:59.160 --> 00:30:00.240 that for just a moment, because I think a lot of times, as 339 00:30:00.279 --> 00:30:04.000 hired marketers, we tend to forget that and even at some of the smaller 340 00:30:04.039 --> 00:30:07.640 faith based schools there's a tension that they feel like, well, I'm manipulating 341 00:30:07.720 --> 00:30:11.000 someone. Talk about that a little bit. Well, that and that's why 342 00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:18.440 I absolutely believe in Ari. WEINSWAG's idea of marketing with dignity. I don't 343 00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:22.839 want to trick anyone to coming to our school. I want, in fact, 344 00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:26.519 I want, a hundred percent knowledge and awareness, because the program won't 345 00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:32.160 be easy, it will be it will be very rewarding. Um, what 346 00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:38.039 does that mean? Personalized information at every touch point. So our marketing team, 347 00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:44.319 which produces incredible content. You know there they have both print and digital 348 00:30:44.440 --> 00:30:49.160 magazines as an example. Different students have different interests, so I want to 349 00:30:49.200 --> 00:30:53.640 know about the faculties, I want to know about the time to do degree. 350 00:30:53.759 --> 00:30:59.240 So we have found a way to personalize it. And then, of 351 00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:03.319 course, we're ending UH, the way we learn. I think we follow 352 00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:08.839 this all the way through. We have a fabulous instructional design team working with 353 00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:15.519 our faculty, because they're going to be some students need more of you know, 354 00:31:15.680 --> 00:31:21.240 printed instruction and summer are going to do better with videos. I think 355 00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:25.640 a core thing for us, going back to our name the community solution, 356 00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:30.200 if you want to call it selling, and it has the benefit of being 357 00:31:30.359 --> 00:31:34.839 true. We want to convey. Come to our programs, you will have 358 00:31:34.920 --> 00:31:40.240 a sense of community and the most thrilling thing is you see that when you 359 00:31:40.279 --> 00:31:44.960 go to our graduations. The alumni, the new alumni, will talk about 360 00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:48.960 this. What got me through was this feeling there were people like me. 361 00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:55.920 The Faculty and Staff Really supported me, uh in, in the very difficult 362 00:31:56.359 --> 00:32:00.599 circumstance of being a parent, having a job going to school. I always 363 00:32:00.599 --> 00:32:08.200 felt there was a community surrounding me for success. So it turns out you 364 00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:14.880 can actually market that, uh and that that's I think, and I think 365 00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:17.839 when you talk about adult learners. But I would guess that's gonna work. 366 00:32:19.039 --> 00:32:22.720 There's eighteen year olds are looking for a certain thing too. So you want 367 00:32:22.759 --> 00:32:27.440 a Taylor to what? In that case, maybe parents. You're marketing to 368 00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:32.000 parents. We we don't market as much to parents. It's an interesting for 369 00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:37.200 some of our younger students there maybe an element of still parents are the consumer, 370 00:32:37.720 --> 00:32:40.880 but what we want to talk to them about. We're gonna envelop you 371 00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:47.240 in a in a learning and professional community that we know has a high chance 372 00:32:49.119 --> 00:32:51.960 to get you out on the other side. That's great. Thank you. 373 00:32:53.160 --> 00:32:58.160 We want to close our conversation with you, Dr Horowitz, by asking you 374 00:32:58.279 --> 00:33:01.079 if there's a piece of advice that you would of other marketers that they could 375 00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:08.599 implement right away. That comes from your TCS system. We've talked about this 376 00:33:09.079 --> 00:33:16.640 for years. Don't try to sell things that you don't have authentically in the 377 00:33:16.839 --> 00:33:22.759 education. So just because you saw a great add a great magazine, a 378 00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:29.519 great video from another institution, before you go and copy that, say can 379 00:33:29.559 --> 00:33:34.200 I support this all the way through? Marketing is so important. It's how 380 00:33:34.240 --> 00:33:42.160 we tell the world about ourselves. Make sure you have an authentic message. 381 00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:47.920 If you say I'm going to recruit working adult students, okay, ask yourself. 382 00:33:49.079 --> 00:33:54.079 Have I set up evening and weekend classes? Do have online maximized to 383 00:33:54.119 --> 00:34:00.799 the extent that program allows? Do I understand why the students in this program 384 00:34:00.920 --> 00:34:07.079 will need in terms of support? That then the marketing becomes really fun because 385 00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:10.960 then you can you can you can ask the students in the program, you 386 00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:15.159 can ask the graduates. I mean some of our best videos, our videos 387 00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:21.159 that we we take interviewing students as they graduate, and it's and you can 388 00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:27.519 they will describe for our future prospective student what was so great about the experience 389 00:34:27.519 --> 00:34:32.159 they had at our colleges. So I guess I'd say marketing critically important and 390 00:34:32.199 --> 00:34:40.719 connected to everything else in the organization approach these key areas, like finance, 391 00:34:40.840 --> 00:34:47.719 like marketing, like enrollment academics, in a cohesive way. Dr Horowitz, 392 00:34:49.239 --> 00:34:52.920 thank you very much for being a guest on the hired marketer podcast. We 393 00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:57.920 appreciate what you've brought to our listeners today. For our listeners that would like 394 00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:02.000 to reach out and contact you maybe get more information about what you offer, 395 00:35:02.719 --> 00:35:07.400 how would they best do that? Well, first of all, let me 396 00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:14.039 thank you, troy and bark very engaging conversation. I would love it if 397 00:35:14.119 --> 00:35:19.719 people would come to our website, TCS E D system dot e Du. 398 00:35:19.960 --> 00:35:24.320 It's gonna tell you a lot about how we radically cooperate and you'll be able 399 00:35:24.360 --> 00:35:30.239 to be able to click through to each one of our colleges and their websites 400 00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:35.119 as well. And then I'd be happy if people would take a look on 401 00:35:35.199 --> 00:35:42.760 my linkedin at Dr Michael Horowitz. I publish regularly in the Forbes Nonprofit Council 402 00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:47.039 and I link the articles there on my Linkedin, as well as podcasts and 403 00:35:47.159 --> 00:35:54.199 other content like this great discussion we've just had. Thank you, bark. 404 00:35:54.280 --> 00:35:59.519 Do you have any final fonts? Yeah, I thought this was a great 405 00:35:59.559 --> 00:36:01.119 conversation and Dr Harrowitz, thank you so much for being on the show. 406 00:36:01.280 --> 00:36:05.519 A couple of things that I wanted to kind of point out as as takeaways 407 00:36:05.559 --> 00:36:07.280 for our listeners, and if you need to go back and listen to part 408 00:36:07.320 --> 00:36:09.760 of this again, I would encourage you to do that. Talked a lot 409 00:36:09.800 --> 00:36:15.480 about radical collaboration and I think that the what Dr Harrowitz and the and the 410 00:36:15.480 --> 00:36:19.760 TCS system are doing is pretty phodomenal and I think it's a it's it's something 411 00:36:19.800 --> 00:36:22.440 that's going to need to continue to develop. I think he had kind of 412 00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:25.719 said at the beginning about the idea of being able to see more and more 413 00:36:25.719 --> 00:36:30.840 of those types of systems happening. But I would also challenge you just internally 414 00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:36.800 in your own college, in your own cabinet level, radical collaboration anywhere is 415 00:36:36.840 --> 00:36:39.800 going to benefit everything, and so being able to work together as a marketing 416 00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:43.719 team with the enrollment team, being able to work as an enrollment team with 417 00:36:43.760 --> 00:36:49.159 the student success and student life team, everyone working together and collaborating in a 418 00:36:49.280 --> 00:36:52.400 radical way for the end user, the student, is going to really make 419 00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:57.000 a big difference in your institution. So I would really really take that up. 420 00:36:57.039 --> 00:36:59.599 On on some of the ideas that Dr Harrowits has talked about, I 421 00:36:59.639 --> 00:37:00.960 would all so really like to point out the fact that we talked a lot 422 00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:07.039 about the idea of unique and authentic messaging and especially we talked a lot about 423 00:37:07.079 --> 00:37:10.119 the adult students and the idea that there's gonna be different audiences, the idea 424 00:37:10.159 --> 00:37:15.159 of creating different personas and different marketing aspects of to these audiences and being able 425 00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:19.760 to deliver your authentic message. I think to Dr Her it's his point. 426 00:37:20.519 --> 00:37:22.719 You need to really be authentic and to define who you are as an institution. 427 00:37:23.119 --> 00:37:27.199 You're not going to attract every student out there, nor should you. 428 00:37:27.199 --> 00:37:30.079 You should attract the ones that are going to succeed the most at your institution 429 00:37:30.199 --> 00:37:32.559 and being authentic and leading with that. I think that's going to be the 430 00:37:34.039 --> 00:37:37.440 key for you to really have some success in that. And I think another 431 00:37:37.480 --> 00:37:39.719 thing just that kind of is the overarching thing that we've talked about here today 432 00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:45.079 that we didn't really define, but there's a great book called story brand and 433 00:37:45.079 --> 00:37:46.760 it's the idea that when you are doing any kind of marketing, you want 434 00:37:46.760 --> 00:37:52.480 to use the your end user, as the hero and and and your school 435 00:37:52.519 --> 00:37:55.440 then is the supporting it's it's kind of like the Luke skywalker and Yoda. 436 00:37:55.480 --> 00:38:00.440 Your student is the Luke Skywalker and you're gonna help them with their journey and 437 00:38:00.440 --> 00:38:02.320 you're gonna be the Yoda to come along. But when you're doing your marketing, 438 00:38:02.719 --> 00:38:06.800 it's not about you as the school, it's about the student and where 439 00:38:06.840 --> 00:38:08.480 they're going to be at the end of the day because of the experience that 440 00:38:08.519 --> 00:38:12.280 they had with you. And so we want to make sure that everything that 441 00:38:12.280 --> 00:38:15.320 we're doing from our marketing standpoint, it's radically collaborating with others on campus. 442 00:38:15.639 --> 00:38:20.000 We're delivering our unique and authentic story and we're focused on the fact that the 443 00:38:20.039 --> 00:38:22.880 student is the hero. So thanks again, Dr Harvards. It's been a 444 00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:24.760 great pleasure to have you on the show. That was a great summary and 445 00:38:25.480 --> 00:38:30.840 something for me to learn with that reference. Thank you for a great conversation. 446 00:38:31.800 --> 00:38:37.119 The Higher Ed Marketer podcast. It's sponsored by Kaylor solutions and education marketing 447 00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:45.400 and branding agency and by think patented a Marketing Execution Company combining print, digital 448 00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:51.800 and mailing for Higher Ed Solutions. On behalf of Bart Kaylor. I'm troy 449 00:38:51.960 --> 00:38:58.639 singer. Thank you for joining us. You've been listening to the Higher Ed 450 00:38:58.719 --> 00:39:01.960 Marketer too, sure that you never miss an episode. Subscribe to the show 451 00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:07.880 in your favorite podcast player. If you're listening with apple PODCASTS, we'd love 452 00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:10.360 for you to leave a quick rating of the show. Simply tap the number 453 00:39:10.360 --> 00:39:14.719 of stars you think the podcast deserves. Until next time,