Transcript
WEBVTT
1
00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:06.320
The High Red Marketer podcast is sponsored
by the ZEM APP enabling colleges and universities
2
00:00:06.519 --> 00:00:15.199
to engage interested students before they even
apply. You're listening to the Higher Ed
3
00:00:15.279 --> 00:00:20.519
Marketer, a podcast geared towards marketing
professionals in higher education. This show will
4
00:00:20.559 --> 00:00:25.440
tackle all sorts of questions related to
student recruitment, donor relations, marketing trends,
5
00:00:25.440 --> 00:00:30.239
new technologies and so much more.
If you're looking for conversations centered around
6
00:00:30.239 --> 00:00:34.399
where the industry is going, this
podcast is for you. Let's get into
7
00:00:34.439 --> 00:00:44.880
the show. Today on the Higher
Ed Marketer Podcast, Mart and I speak
8
00:00:44.920 --> 00:00:52.000
with Dr Michael Horowitz of the T
C S Education System about increasing outcomes for
9
00:00:52.119 --> 00:00:57.719
higher ed leaders through formal and courageous
collaboration, and I love the conversation that
10
00:00:57.799 --> 00:01:03.359
we had with Dr Horowitz. Uh
He is an expert on how to use
11
00:01:03.439 --> 00:01:07.560
benchmarking and also how to market to
adult learners, and I believe he shares
12
00:01:07.599 --> 00:01:12.680
a lot of best cases for our
listeners to do the same at their institutions.
13
00:01:14.079 --> 00:01:15.439
That's right, Troy. I think
that there's a lot of really good
14
00:01:15.480 --> 00:01:19.840
information in this episode. Dr Horowitz
kind of spend some time at the beginning
15
00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:23.159
talking a little bit about TCS and
and how they do the radical collaboration with
16
00:01:23.239 --> 00:01:27.879
among different schools and and how they
set that up as part of their organization.
17
00:01:29.280 --> 00:01:30.519
But I think it is really kind
of critical when we get get to
18
00:01:30.519 --> 00:01:34.319
the point, maybe about five ten
minutes into the interview, we start talking
19
00:01:34.359 --> 00:01:38.920
about adult learning and really some specifics
on the expertise that Dr Horowitz brings with
20
00:01:38.920 --> 00:01:42.840
with his experience with adult learning and
and how to market to them and how
21
00:01:42.879 --> 00:01:47.079
TCS does a lot of that marketing
as well. I think it's really important
22
00:01:47.079 --> 00:01:51.159
to listen to that and really understand
a little bit about how that radical collaboration
23
00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:55.920
can play out even at your own
school. He is a great leader in
24
00:01:55.920 --> 00:02:05.319
interesting conversationalists and here's our conversation with
Dr Michael Horwitz. Dr Horwitz, before
25
00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:09.599
we get into our conversation about the
TCS education system, I would like to
26
00:02:09.639 --> 00:02:15.400
ask you is there anything that you've
learned recently that's interesting or knew that you
27
00:02:15.439 --> 00:02:22.840
can share? Well, that's a
great question, Troy. Interestingly enough,
28
00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:30.080
I've learned this morning in the Higher
Ed press that two universities announced that they
29
00:02:30.080 --> 00:02:38.080
were going to try to form a
nonprofit education system and we had to mention
30
00:02:38.319 --> 00:02:45.599
in the article and I'm excited to
see that people are recognizing the power of
31
00:02:45.599 --> 00:02:51.319
the model and understanding it. A
few years ago, when we were talking
32
00:02:52.199 --> 00:02:57.199
to the leadership of WASSK are major
creditor, they asked me if we could
33
00:02:57.240 --> 00:03:01.800
have a hundred colleges within TC s
and I said I don't know that that
34
00:03:01.960 --> 00:03:07.840
is our goal or should be,
but I'd like to see a hundred systems
35
00:03:07.400 --> 00:03:13.599
like ours take hold. And so
that that was a fun way to start
36
00:03:13.599 --> 00:03:16.400
off today. To read about that, of course, in a great way
37
00:03:16.439 --> 00:03:22.319
to segment, or excuse me,
segue into our conversation if you would tell
38
00:03:22.360 --> 00:03:28.919
everyone who you are, your role
and what tcs education system the model that
39
00:03:29.000 --> 00:03:34.879
it promotes and works under. Okay, great, thank you. So I'm
40
00:03:34.919 --> 00:03:44.400
Michael Horowitz, PhD. I have
a doctorate in clinical psychology and trained to
41
00:03:44.439 --> 00:03:52.080
be a psychologist and a psychoanalyst.
I got very interested along the way in
42
00:03:52.240 --> 00:04:00.599
the promise of psychology as an independent
profession and became very active and spent many
43
00:04:00.680 --> 00:04:08.960
years in schools of professional psychology and
different roles, faculty, administrator, eventually
44
00:04:09.080 --> 00:04:15.400
president of the Chicago School of Professional
Psychology, and I served in that role
45
00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:25.759
from two thousand. In twenty nine
I decided to found UH TCS education system,
46
00:04:25.839 --> 00:04:31.120
the community solution and higher education.
I had wonderful colleagues and wonderful board
47
00:04:31.160 --> 00:04:36.439
members who supported that vision. What
I came to understand is, even though
48
00:04:36.519 --> 00:04:42.920
we had had great success growing the
Chicago School from about two hundred students to
49
00:04:43.040 --> 00:04:49.839
over three thousand and having a national
footprint, that we needed to bring colleges
50
00:04:49.879 --> 00:04:57.319
and universities together in a formally governed
model. And so in twenty Oh nine
51
00:04:57.519 --> 00:05:04.040
we created the framework and in twenty
ten we went live UH and today we're
52
00:05:04.120 --> 00:05:10.879
up to five colleges and universities.
Were on the cusp of a sixth university
53
00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:16.920
joining us in, and so we
are an integrated nonprofit system and what we're
54
00:05:16.959 --> 00:05:27.639
about is working collaboratively to advance institutional
sustainability, student success and community impact.
55
00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:31.360
Thank you. And I think one
of the ways that you describe that is
56
00:05:31.399 --> 00:05:39.120
with the term the power of radical
cooperation or radical co operation. Can you
57
00:05:39.160 --> 00:05:44.199
expand upon that? I'd love to, because it's uh it's our bread and
58
00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:49.360
butter. You know, there's that
old saw that culture eat strategy, and
59
00:05:51.040 --> 00:06:00.279
when you create an integrated nonprofit system
and you ask faculty, Staff Boards to
60
00:06:00.439 --> 00:06:06.439
work across the nation and really across
the globe, because we've continued to advance
61
00:06:08.040 --> 00:06:13.399
our activity around the world. You
have to double down every day on the
62
00:06:13.399 --> 00:06:18.759
notion of its one organization, one
system. We're working to support each other.
63
00:06:19.600 --> 00:06:28.160
You know, Higher Ed is kind
of distinct in being radically non cooperative,
64
00:06:28.920 --> 00:06:32.519
and that might be another podcast where
we could look at the reasons for
65
00:06:32.639 --> 00:06:40.639
that. If you go to most
sectors you know of of society, there's
66
00:06:40.680 --> 00:06:46.920
no way to solve big problems without
working in what I would define as a
67
00:06:46.040 --> 00:06:56.439
radically cooperative way. I just read
a piece on Uston having the most success
68
00:06:56.600 --> 00:07:00.959
in dealing with homelessness and of any
of big cities, and what was striking
69
00:07:01.199 --> 00:07:09.720
as part of the discussion was various
agencies and nonprofits that interface with that population
70
00:07:10.120 --> 00:07:14.839
had to work with each other in
a cooperative way that they never had before.
71
00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:21.040
So radical cooperation means that's our our
biggest cultural value. We're looking at
72
00:07:21.079 --> 00:07:26.639
each other as teammates. We're trying
to figure out the best way forward for
73
00:07:26.680 --> 00:07:30.920
our students, for our colleges,
and you asked about what I've learned recently,
74
00:07:31.199 --> 00:07:36.120
but I've learned things over many years. There's a great ted talk,
75
00:07:36.240 --> 00:07:43.199
one of my favorites, by a
Boston consulting person, Eve Moreau, that
76
00:07:43.319 --> 00:07:50.279
talks about where businesses and organizations lose
the most impact and productivity is by not
77
00:07:50.480 --> 00:07:56.319
working together. And so it's it's
those are not things you can necessarily measure
78
00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:03.839
on a budget or in a patric
but you can feel it and you will
79
00:08:03.879 --> 00:08:07.319
see the impact on those matrics.
Yeah, I think that's so interesting that
80
00:08:07.399 --> 00:08:11.439
you say that, Dr Harwin's,
because I've I've worked with Lumina Foundation for
81
00:08:11.600 --> 00:08:15.639
Education for years and they, you
know, they have had their their big
82
00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:18.920
goal, the goal where they want
to see six of the you know,
83
00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:26.399
adults in the United States having a
post you know, Post Post secondary degree
84
00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:30.519
of some kind, whether it's in
professional training or or bachelor or otherwise.
85
00:08:31.079 --> 00:08:33.600
And I think sometimes about the idea
that as higher education marketers, we get
86
00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:37.279
so worried that we're competing against each
of us. A lot of times we're
87
00:08:37.279 --> 00:08:41.159
competing against life. Um You know
a lot of students don't end up in
88
00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:45.840
our programs because of life and not
necessarily because they go to the other school.
89
00:08:46.360 --> 00:08:50.000
And so I think that even as
marketers, this idea of radical cooperation
90
00:08:50.120 --> 00:08:54.399
is appealing to me because maybe you
can tell us a little bit about how
91
00:08:54.759 --> 00:08:56.399
I mean when I think about,
you know, organizations like yours, I
92
00:08:56.399 --> 00:09:01.320
know a lot of this. The
State Independent College Associations often have you purchasing,
93
00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:05.679
you know, agreements that they'll do
with with large, you know,
94
00:09:05.759 --> 00:09:09.480
software vendors or I t or different
things like that. But what you're talking
95
00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:13.480
about goes beyond just purchasing. I
mean we're talking about radical cooperation in other
96
00:09:13.559 --> 00:09:20.600
aspects of the of the campus as
well. Correct, absolutely so. I'm
97
00:09:20.600 --> 00:09:28.759
glad you brought up that experience of
state associations. My ten years as president
98
00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:33.519
of the Chicago School I went to
the Illinois version and there are always great
99
00:09:33.559 --> 00:09:41.480
aspirations to do things together. It
seemed like the core emphasis, and that's
100
00:09:41.559 --> 00:09:46.919
my observation on most of the associations, was to lobby as a group for
101
00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:52.440
state funding. That's absolutely important and
the right thing to do. I didn't
102
00:09:52.440 --> 00:10:00.000
see anything else of impact and part
of my diagnosis or desire to do something
103
00:10:00.159 --> 00:10:05.279
different is you have to formally tie
it together at the governing level. If
104
00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:11.000
you don't have buy in from the
boards of trustees and the leadership the rest
105
00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:16.200
of it's not gonna work. There
are too many competing factors. And so
106
00:10:16.279 --> 00:10:24.279
I started tcs from an academic premise, that bringing colleges with passion for their
107
00:10:24.320 --> 00:10:33.039
programs, their communities together. Uh, there was absolutely every expectation will will
108
00:10:33.080 --> 00:10:37.840
be better as a group. Um, and you're absolutely right that you should
109
00:10:37.919 --> 00:10:43.600
be able, and we do by
at better cost or better quality, or
110
00:10:43.720 --> 00:10:50.360
both, by being as a group. And that that's one small part of
111
00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:54.200
it. Ah, but really the
biggest part you have to get right up
112
00:10:54.200 --> 00:11:01.360
front is how's everybody at every level
going to commit to this being a united
113
00:11:01.399 --> 00:11:07.360
effort? Then the purchasing is almost
the easiest. Like well, of course,
114
00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:15.600
because but again here's where culture comes
in. We we don't necessarily strive
115
00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:20.799
to say we're gonna save money.
We'd rather create the biggest impact with our
116
00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:24.799
dollar. So often that means our
colleges might be spending the same but for
117
00:11:24.879 --> 00:11:30.759
something much higher level. So as
if you're going to do that with technology,
118
00:11:31.240 --> 00:11:35.960
you have to have the agreement.
We can debate the system and then
119
00:11:35.960 --> 00:11:41.639
we're going to decide it's one system, because then then that's where the breakdown
120
00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:46.080
happens in my experience, when you
don't have it tied up at the top
121
00:11:46.200 --> 00:11:50.919
level. So we're all in agreement. Let's look at different systems, let's
122
00:11:50.919 --> 00:11:54.480
have presentations and then let's agree we're
gonna pick one so we can drive the
123
00:11:54.519 --> 00:11:58.600
best price, we can get the
most expertise and off we go. And
124
00:11:58.679 --> 00:12:03.480
sure there's there are arguments to be
made for system B, C and D
125
00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:09.360
that we didn't choose, but you're
gonna get the high impact from that commitment
126
00:12:09.399 --> 00:12:11.840
to being a team right. And
is it true, too, that the
127
00:12:11.879 --> 00:12:16.559
idea that that even with Um,
you know, said earlier when I set
128
00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:20.559
up my question, that you know, we're often competing against life. I
129
00:12:20.600 --> 00:12:24.039
think, though, that in the
nature of the way education is going.
130
00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:28.679
I mean we've seen radical shifts and, you know, telephones and other industries,
131
00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:31.960
computer and how you know, there's
you know, somebody comes in with
132
00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:35.240
like the iphone came in and it
totally upended everything that we knew about a
133
00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:39.480
mobile phone. I think that we're
on the cusp of something like that happening
134
00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:43.240
in Higher Ed and I think that's
going to be outside of what is known
135
00:12:43.240 --> 00:12:48.240
as the traditional Higher Ed. I
mean we've we've heard talks from Google and
136
00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:54.679
other large corporations about ideas that they
have to fix the brokenness of of of
137
00:12:54.759 --> 00:12:58.600
higher education. And so I think
in some ways, Um, you know,
138
00:12:58.600 --> 00:13:01.000
people are always going to need an
always want to have traditional higher end,
139
00:13:01.080 --> 00:13:05.799
that the experience, the student experience, everything that there is in traditional
140
00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:09.039
higher end. That's always going to
be something that's going to be wanted.
141
00:13:09.080 --> 00:13:13.840
But my fear is is that if
we're not doing this radical cooperation and we're
142
00:13:13.879 --> 00:13:16.000
just kind of putting our head down
the sands and doing our own things,
143
00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:20.879
something big is going to come along
and gonna shift the entire playing field.
144
00:13:20.919 --> 00:13:22.639
Is it? Is that part of
what you were talking about or thinking about
145
00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:28.919
with the with the TCS system as
well? Uh, I agree with most
146
00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:33.799
of what you said. I'll temper. I'll temper with that. Higher Ed,
147
00:13:33.919 --> 00:13:39.399
for better or for worse, has
been resistant and resilient in fending off
148
00:13:41.039 --> 00:13:46.159
a lot of innovation. So again, that that that requires a few books
149
00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:50.960
to be written about it, because
it's got to be more than ten years
150
00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:58.679
ago where Clayton Christensen h wrote that
and he's a great theorist. But basically,
151
00:13:58.080 --> 00:14:01.279
you know, America and the Higher
Ed's going to get wiped out and
152
00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:09.320
we're just going to see big for
profit online take over everything. And you
153
00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:16.720
know, and and he had good
presentations sort of explaining how, for a
154
00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:22.799
while the American car industry got wiped
out by innovations coming from Japan and other
155
00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:30.320
countries. So in a way I'm
gonna say not so fast. I'll focus
156
00:14:30.360 --> 00:14:39.279
in on what we do right.
We were affording high access two adult students,
157
00:14:39.919 --> 00:14:50.200
by and large seeking important professional degrees. So these are degrees and professions
158
00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:56.720
that are overwhelmingly licensed. They take
a big commitment, whether it's becoming a
159
00:14:56.759 --> 00:15:03.519
psychologist, a lawyer, a medical
doctor. So the way we're teaching in
160
00:15:03.559 --> 00:15:09.320
those spaces absolutely is getting transformed by
technology. But you're not going to be
161
00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:15.120
able to go online and, you
know, take a course oftwered by a
162
00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:20.039
tech company and then like Hey,
I'd like to practice medicine. So it's
163
00:15:20.840 --> 00:15:26.200
it's UH. Doug Liederman, one
of the founders of inside Higher Ed,
164
00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:31.720
made a good point uh at a
West conference a few years ago, that
165
00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:37.080
the public thinks of the American higher
education system, there is no higher education
166
00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:46.399
system. There's multiple ecosystems. So
TCS lives largely in this word world of
167
00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:56.360
passionate adult students seeking pretty sophisticated levels
of education. So how we market,
168
00:15:56.480 --> 00:16:03.159
how we teach, how we enroll, absolutely shifting in response to technology.
169
00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:12.600
At the same time shifting or staying
static in response two regulatory agencies professions that
170
00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:17.840
will have as big as, say, as as the tech companies. So
171
00:16:17.919 --> 00:16:22.919
that that I'm a big embracer of
technology, but we we make a mistake
172
00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:27.200
with higher ad uh, they're the
quickest to change, you know. But
173
00:16:27.240 --> 00:16:33.000
now we're saying, as we learn
about layoffs in this economy, the tech
174
00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:37.200
companies are going to be the first
to contract and we're not. Everyone is
175
00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:41.159
training to work at Google. We're
all going to use Google, but not
176
00:16:41.240 --> 00:16:45.720
everyone is gonna earn their living or
be fulfilled or get a job there.
177
00:16:45.960 --> 00:16:48.759
We talk a lot about it on
the show. Schools are really struggling today
178
00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:53.240
that make the same at spin work. CPMS are up eight year over a
179
00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:57.879
year. On facebook and instagram.
Our College clients are no longer looking for
180
00:16:57.919 --> 00:17:03.440
rented audiences. They're looking for an
owned community where they can engage students even
181
00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:07.680
before they apply. This is why
Zemi has become so crucial for our clients,
182
00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:12.160
with over one million students, close
to ten thou five star ratings consistently
183
00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:17.519
ranked as one of the top social
lapps and recently one of Apple's hot APPs
184
00:17:17.519 --> 00:17:19.960
of the week. There simply isn't
anything out there like it, and we
185
00:17:21.039 --> 00:17:23.559
have seen it all. Ze Me
not only provides the best space for student
186
00:17:23.599 --> 00:17:29.480
engagement, but the most unique and
actionable data for their one sixty college and
187
00:17:29.599 --> 00:17:33.319
university partners. We know firsthand from
our clients that Ze me is a must
188
00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:38.680
have strategy for Gen Z. Check
them out now at colleges dot Zem dot
189
00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:45.039
com. That's colleges dot Z E
M E dot Com. And yes,
190
00:17:45.559 --> 00:17:51.480
tell them Barton Troy sent you.
Thank you, Dr Horowitz, and I'm
191
00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:59.079
going to encourage our listeners to investigate
and research tcs and what you're doing there,
192
00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:03.839
because I think they're a lot of
great that is happening that others can
193
00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:07.839
learn from. I do want to
switch gears a little bit because I want
194
00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:12.839
to make sure we offer some advice
for the schools that aren't, uh,
195
00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:18.559
in a consortiution like yours. But
we also know that you have some expertise
196
00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:23.039
in benchmarking and would like to ask
how you feel schools can better utilize benchmarking
197
00:18:23.680 --> 00:18:33.880
and attain progress within what they're currently
doing. Yeah, I mean, I'm
198
00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:38.240
pretty basic in this regard. I'll
give you a few. I'm sometimes amazed
199
00:18:38.279 --> 00:18:45.279
that people are not using these benchmarks
and I will say on any given day
200
00:18:45.319 --> 00:18:48.720
not everything we do works in a
given day, a given year. So
201
00:18:48.759 --> 00:18:55.359
our arrows aren't always up from one
standpoint. If you're a nonprofit college,
202
00:18:55.400 --> 00:19:00.000
you need to be operating with the
goal of the surplus each and every year.
203
00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:06.359
That's a pretty basic metric. It's
it's stunning actually how many colleges don't
204
00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:11.440
and then they're wondering why things are
getting tougher, why they're discounting more.
205
00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:17.039
I mean there's a lot behind that. Get Your Business Model Right. If
206
00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:21.400
you're losing money every year, there's
it's it will start to spiral out of
207
00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:27.519
control. We're so lucky. We're
not lucky because I think we choose people
208
00:19:27.559 --> 00:19:33.000
well. Our colleges do. Our
leaders are really committed to that. Sometimes
209
00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:37.599
there's a tough year, they don't
have it, but because you know the
210
00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:45.640
year they are they have that cushion. We are laser focused on student success.
211
00:19:45.799 --> 00:19:49.880
The most important metric is how many
students complete and graduate, and then
212
00:19:49.880 --> 00:19:56.519
a further metric is people. Hopefully, since we're meeting for the first time.
213
00:19:56.759 --> 00:20:00.799
You won't be tired of me talking
about it. People get tired me
214
00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:04.720
saying the loan default rate is is
critical and people say, well, that's
215
00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:14.079
kind of away from education. Like
now most students are borrowing money. It's
216
00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:18.960
a big commitment to get to a
certain place in life. We hope not
217
00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:22.839
only to have a rewarding profession,
but they've been changed and impacted by learning
218
00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:27.599
and practicing that profession. We want
to see them finish the program get licensed,
219
00:20:27.640 --> 00:20:32.240
if they're in a license your program, and pay back the loan.
220
00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:37.319
That tells us that all the way
through it's working, so that that those
221
00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:42.799
are first and foremost among the metrics, the student ones. If the student
222
00:20:42.839 --> 00:20:48.240
ones are working, if you're graduating
most of the students, they're paying back
223
00:20:48.279 --> 00:20:52.000
their loans. The rest will follow. On the budgets, we we have
224
00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:56.720
remarkable, you know, data and
reports. So we of course look at
225
00:20:57.400 --> 00:21:06.000
inquiries and applications and conversions, but
at the end of the day we don't
226
00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:11.000
care if we have more inquiries or
less. We want to get applications from
227
00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:15.119
qualified students and, more importantly,
get them to where they hope to go.
228
00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:18.279
Yeah, I think that that's such
an important thing when you talk about
229
00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:22.880
benchmarking, because I I often talk
here on the podcast, we've had a
230
00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:26.839
lot of conversations about it as well
as just direct conversations when I talk with
231
00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:29.640
my clients, is just, you
know, what are those key performance indicators?
232
00:21:29.640 --> 00:21:33.839
I mean you've talked about some more
um macro, you know, benchmarking
233
00:21:33.920 --> 00:21:40.359
with with default loans and you know, retention to graduation rates and things like
234
00:21:40.400 --> 00:21:44.079
that. But I think even when
we get down into the marketing, uh,
235
00:21:44.119 --> 00:21:45.680
you know, when we're looking at, as you just kind of alluded
236
00:21:45.720 --> 00:21:49.519
to, you know, those campaigns
of what are our conversion rates? What
237
00:21:49.559 --> 00:21:55.000
are what are we looking at and
having the ability and the tools to be
238
00:21:55.039 --> 00:21:59.079
able to set up those key key
performance indicators, know the ones that we
239
00:21:59.079 --> 00:22:02.720
should be looking and looking for.
I still find a lot of people are
240
00:22:02.759 --> 00:22:07.079
confused on, you know, whether
impressions are important or conversions are imp important.
241
00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:10.200
I mean, you know, I'm
more concerned about how many students I
242
00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:14.240
have in the fall or in the
next cycle rather than how many people saw
243
00:22:14.279 --> 00:22:17.960
my billboard on the interstate. And
so I want to make sure you're exactly
244
00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:22.960
right. Don't don't get confused by
the glitzy right and now your core markers.
245
00:22:23.079 --> 00:22:30.039
Right. What what are we interested
in? Enrollments of qualified students.
246
00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:33.039
We I mean, I know enough
to be dangerous. I do love marketing,
247
00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:37.640
but we have great leadership in our
marketing team. I rely on them
248
00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:45.000
for the expertise. But I know
that currently we're experimenting with really dialing down
249
00:22:45.640 --> 00:22:52.319
lead vendor, as an example,
and really focus on better quality applications.
250
00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:55.880
The best ones, you know,
are the ones that will find us through
251
00:22:55.920 --> 00:22:59.920
our own websites. So yeah,
if inquiries go way down but we end
252
00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:06.680
up with equally strong or hopefully better
starting class, then that's even better.
253
00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:14.640
The other thing recently and we I
think it's critical from a culture standpoint to
254
00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:18.880
always look at what's going on in
the larger world. So we we have
255
00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:23.000
an annual operating review with all of
our college leadership teams. We had a
256
00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:30.759
great marketing panel of some of our
major outside vendors and the representative from Google
257
00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:34.759
made a really interesting point in the
way that people could get she asked someone
258
00:23:36.079 --> 00:23:40.759
how they got to the meeting that
day and the person said, you know,
259
00:23:41.079 --> 00:23:48.480
I drove my car, and she
said, but yeah, what about
260
00:23:48.519 --> 00:23:52.119
the highway? What about the traffic? How did you get there. So
261
00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:57.759
what we realized, what was really
tangible, is someone may have clicked on
262
00:23:57.799 --> 00:24:04.039
our website but they had eight different
engagements that we haven't captured because they talked
263
00:24:04.039 --> 00:24:11.319
to an alarm, they went to
a healthcare setting and their psychologists. It
264
00:24:11.480 --> 00:24:15.440
wasn't alarm. They maybe saw the
billboard. So it's uh, that was
265
00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:21.319
a very interesting point. The other
one she said is that now cent if
266
00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:25.839
I'm rembering correctly, of time online
is spent looking at videos. Oh,
267
00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:30.559
that's really interesting. It's it's fast. Yeah, I may have gotten I
268
00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:33.279
maybe don't hold me to that number, but it was very high. That
269
00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:41.880
certainly suggests that we should be producing
compelling video. I agree with you and
270
00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:45.880
I know that TCS spends a lot
of times focused on on adult learners and
271
00:24:45.880 --> 00:24:48.440
and a lot of the work that
that Um, you know, I have
272
00:24:48.519 --> 00:24:52.160
experience in is is kind of in
that small to medium sized school because a
273
00:24:52.200 --> 00:24:56.400
lot of times those schools are the
ones that are really leveraging the adult learning
274
00:24:56.519 --> 00:25:00.799
and the online modality to make sure
that they can kind of, you know,
275
00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:03.519
increase their net revenue. And so
I think that, Um, you
276
00:25:03.559 --> 00:25:07.799
know, I'm curious when you start
thinking about everything that tcs is doing too,
277
00:25:08.039 --> 00:25:11.480
to kind of serve those schools for
that adult learning, you know,
278
00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:14.799
as you put it, the professional
and the licensing types of things with nursing
279
00:25:14.839 --> 00:25:18.920
and psychology and those types of things. I feel like it's some you know,
280
00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:22.359
there's a lot of probably the biggest
thing that I could say, and
281
00:25:22.519 --> 00:25:25.880
I guess I'm trying to get you
to kind of validate this, and what
282
00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:27.880
I'm hearing and what you're seeing is
that, Um, you know, you
283
00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:33.240
have to you have to market differently
to adults than you do traditional students,
284
00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:36.440
and I think a lot of schools
fail to think about that. They think
285
00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:38.119
it's as easy as just, well, if we buy some Google ads and
286
00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:41.279
we're good and we're set right.
I mean we just run them through the
287
00:25:41.319 --> 00:25:48.559
same I agree with that. I'll
take it. I shared with our marketing
288
00:25:48.599 --> 00:25:56.559
team recently. Another organization I admire
is the Zingerman community of businesses and their
289
00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:03.240
CO founder, Ari Weinswag, has
a new interesting weekly email where he both
290
00:26:03.680 --> 00:26:08.640
sells his product, their food business, but has kind of a philosophical take
291
00:26:08.759 --> 00:26:14.880
on business, and what he wrote
about recently was marketing with dignity and what
292
00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:19.680
you're describing when you when you do
the Google ads. Where's the substance?
293
00:26:19.799 --> 00:26:29.559
To me, marketing with dignity is
where authentically and transparently conveying what is positive
294
00:26:29.559 --> 00:26:33.440
about our institution, what the program
is. There's historically been this thought of,
295
00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:37.799
you know, let's hide the information
and then they'll want it more,
296
00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:44.680
and that we're living in an age
where we have to be very transparent the
297
00:26:44.799 --> 00:26:51.039
costs the benefit. Here's how the
program works. So to market well,
298
00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:56.000
you have to the institution has to
be geared to that student. You have
299
00:26:56.079 --> 00:27:00.160
to have faculty that are embracing of
the student. That comes with work and
300
00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:07.359
life experience. So I'm at a
great interaction at Pacific Oaks, one of
301
00:27:07.400 --> 00:27:14.640
our colleges. One time a m
a prospective student was being brought through with
302
00:27:14.680 --> 00:27:18.720
admissions and I happened to be with
my wife, who is an early childhood
303
00:27:18.759 --> 00:27:25.039
psychologists a very resident with what Pacific
Oaks does, and we stopped and had
304
00:27:25.079 --> 00:27:30.359
a chat about you know, this
student was currently working as an early childhood
305
00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:33.519
teacher and my wife was well,
you're gonna love it here because you know
306
00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:37.839
those are the students that come here. You're gonna get to apply what you're
307
00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:41.920
doing every day with the classroom.
The faculty really worked that way. You
308
00:27:41.960 --> 00:27:48.519
could see her face brightened, because
a lot of institutions, I don't think
309
00:27:48.519 --> 00:27:52.359
of that. And so it doesn't
matter how many Google ads the student comes
310
00:27:52.359 --> 00:27:56.559
in and I've literally seen faculty at
some institutions say no, we don't want
311
00:27:56.599 --> 00:28:00.319
any prior experience. You know,
the students an empty hearten and our job
312
00:28:00.440 --> 00:28:03.440
is to fill it. Right.
But you know, the other thing I'll
313
00:28:03.440 --> 00:28:10.160
say about the nomenclature. The majority
of American Higher Ed today are working adults,
314
00:28:10.519 --> 00:28:15.640
even the UNDERGRADS. Uh, I
think the last number I saw was
315
00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:18.200
the twenty five years old and most
of them have jobs. So the the
316
00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:22.880
campus with the eighteen to twenty two
year old it's still a big segment.
317
00:28:23.279 --> 00:28:29.680
It's not the majority. So I'm
not sure why we're talking about that.
318
00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:33.960
Is Traditional. Maybe traditional is right. It's certainly not the norm. And
319
00:28:34.039 --> 00:28:41.920
so yeah, we we have to
approach students fundamentally different way and that will
320
00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:45.759
of course inform the marketing. Yeah, I think that's a really good point.
321
00:28:45.759 --> 00:28:48.920
I mean it has to be a
whole different way of looking at the
322
00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:52.880
student and the experience rather than just
saying, oh well, the only difference
323
00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:56.519
is the modality in the age.
Well, now there's a whole different way
324
00:28:56.519 --> 00:29:00.279
of looking at it from a marketing
standpoint and what their needs are, how
325
00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:04.720
they make their decisions, how they
respond to you know why they respond in
326
00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:07.839
the way that they do. I
mean they're checking off boxes that I need
327
00:29:07.839 --> 00:29:10.640
to get this done, I need
to do this and I need to go
328
00:29:10.680 --> 00:29:14.039
do my laundry. I don't have
time to yeah, and then and and
329
00:29:14.079 --> 00:29:18.960
they you're absolutely right, when you
stay competing with life. Uh. And
330
00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:25.240
we're going to do a project with
Google analytics in the coming years, led
331
00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:30.079
by our chief academic officer and some
of our other great leaders, to try
332
00:29:30.079 --> 00:29:34.480
and understand if we can earlier in
the journey. Is it academic? Is
333
00:29:34.519 --> 00:29:40.039
it financial? Is it personal?
What can we do to intervene and help?
334
00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:45.599
A right? That's Great, Dr
Howarts, that's really fascinating when I
335
00:29:45.640 --> 00:29:49.079
think about how adult students are different, and I think that it goes back
336
00:29:49.119 --> 00:29:55.039
to and and you know with your
background in in Um psychology and different things
337
00:29:55.119 --> 00:29:59.039
like that, there's a true Um
psychology of marketing. Could you talk on
338
00:29:59.160 --> 00:30:00.240
that for just a moment, because
I think a lot of times, as
339
00:30:00.279 --> 00:30:04.000
hired marketers, we tend to forget
that and even at some of the smaller
340
00:30:04.039 --> 00:30:07.640
faith based schools there's a tension that
they feel like, well, I'm manipulating
341
00:30:07.720 --> 00:30:11.000
someone. Talk about that a little
bit. Well, that and that's why
342
00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:18.440
I absolutely believe in Ari. WEINSWAG's
idea of marketing with dignity. I don't
343
00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:22.839
want to trick anyone to coming to
our school. I want, in fact,
344
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:26.519
I want, a hundred percent knowledge
and awareness, because the program won't
345
00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:32.160
be easy, it will be it
will be very rewarding. Um, what
346
00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:38.039
does that mean? Personalized information at
every touch point. So our marketing team,
347
00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:44.319
which produces incredible content. You know
there they have both print and digital
348
00:30:44.440 --> 00:30:49.160
magazines as an example. Different students
have different interests, so I want to
349
00:30:49.200 --> 00:30:53.640
know about the faculties, I want
to know about the time to do degree.
350
00:30:53.759 --> 00:30:59.240
So we have found a way to
personalize it. And then, of
351
00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:03.319
course, we're ending UH, the
way we learn. I think we follow
352
00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:08.839
this all the way through. We
have a fabulous instructional design team working with
353
00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:15.519
our faculty, because they're going to
be some students need more of you know,
354
00:31:15.680 --> 00:31:21.240
printed instruction and summer are going to
do better with videos. I think
355
00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:25.640
a core thing for us, going
back to our name the community solution,
356
00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:30.200
if you want to call it selling, and it has the benefit of being
357
00:31:30.359 --> 00:31:34.839
true. We want to convey.
Come to our programs, you will have
358
00:31:34.920 --> 00:31:40.240
a sense of community and the most
thrilling thing is you see that when you
359
00:31:40.279 --> 00:31:44.960
go to our graduations. The alumni, the new alumni, will talk about
360
00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:48.960
this. What got me through was
this feeling there were people like me.
361
00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:55.920
The Faculty and Staff Really supported me, uh in, in the very difficult
362
00:31:56.359 --> 00:32:00.599
circumstance of being a parent, having
a job going to school. I always
363
00:32:00.599 --> 00:32:08.200
felt there was a community surrounding me
for success. So it turns out you
364
00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:14.880
can actually market that, uh and
that that's I think, and I think
365
00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:17.839
when you talk about adult learners.
But I would guess that's gonna work.
366
00:32:19.039 --> 00:32:22.720
There's eighteen year olds are looking for
a certain thing too. So you want
367
00:32:22.759 --> 00:32:27.440
a Taylor to what? In that
case, maybe parents. You're marketing to
368
00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:32.000
parents. We we don't market as
much to parents. It's an interesting for
369
00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:37.200
some of our younger students there maybe
an element of still parents are the consumer,
370
00:32:37.720 --> 00:32:40.880
but what we want to talk to
them about. We're gonna envelop you
371
00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:47.240
in a in a learning and professional
community that we know has a high chance
372
00:32:49.119 --> 00:32:51.960
to get you out on the other
side. That's great. Thank you.
373
00:32:53.160 --> 00:32:58.160
We want to close our conversation with
you, Dr Horowitz, by asking you
374
00:32:58.279 --> 00:33:01.079
if there's a piece of advice that
you would of other marketers that they could
375
00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:08.599
implement right away. That comes from
your TCS system. We've talked about this
376
00:33:09.079 --> 00:33:16.640
for years. Don't try to sell
things that you don't have authentically in the
377
00:33:16.839 --> 00:33:22.759
education. So just because you saw
a great add a great magazine, a
378
00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:29.519
great video from another institution, before
you go and copy that, say can
379
00:33:29.559 --> 00:33:34.200
I support this all the way through? Marketing is so important. It's how
380
00:33:34.240 --> 00:33:42.160
we tell the world about ourselves.
Make sure you have an authentic message.
381
00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:47.920
If you say I'm going to recruit
working adult students, okay, ask yourself.
382
00:33:49.079 --> 00:33:54.079
Have I set up evening and weekend
classes? Do have online maximized to
383
00:33:54.119 --> 00:34:00.799
the extent that program allows? Do
I understand why the students in this program
384
00:34:00.920 --> 00:34:07.079
will need in terms of support?
That then the marketing becomes really fun because
385
00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:10.960
then you can you can you can
ask the students in the program, you
386
00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:15.159
can ask the graduates. I mean
some of our best videos, our videos
387
00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:21.159
that we we take interviewing students as
they graduate, and it's and you can
388
00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:27.519
they will describe for our future prospective
student what was so great about the experience
389
00:34:27.519 --> 00:34:32.159
they had at our colleges. So
I guess I'd say marketing critically important and
390
00:34:32.199 --> 00:34:40.719
connected to everything else in the organization
approach these key areas, like finance,
391
00:34:40.840 --> 00:34:47.719
like marketing, like enrollment academics,
in a cohesive way. Dr Horowitz,
392
00:34:49.239 --> 00:34:52.920
thank you very much for being a
guest on the hired marketer podcast. We
393
00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:57.920
appreciate what you've brought to our listeners
today. For our listeners that would like
394
00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:02.000
to reach out and contact you maybe
get more information about what you offer,
395
00:35:02.719 --> 00:35:07.400
how would they best do that?
Well, first of all, let me
396
00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:14.039
thank you, troy and bark very
engaging conversation. I would love it if
397
00:35:14.119 --> 00:35:19.719
people would come to our website,
TCS E D system dot e Du.
398
00:35:19.960 --> 00:35:24.320
It's gonna tell you a lot about
how we radically cooperate and you'll be able
399
00:35:24.360 --> 00:35:30.239
to be able to click through to
each one of our colleges and their websites
400
00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:35.119
as well. And then I'd be
happy if people would take a look on
401
00:35:35.199 --> 00:35:42.760
my linkedin at Dr Michael Horowitz.
I publish regularly in the Forbes Nonprofit Council
402
00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:47.039
and I link the articles there on
my Linkedin, as well as podcasts and
403
00:35:47.159 --> 00:35:54.199
other content like this great discussion we've
just had. Thank you, bark.
404
00:35:54.280 --> 00:35:59.519
Do you have any final fonts?
Yeah, I thought this was a great
405
00:35:59.559 --> 00:36:01.119
conversation and Dr Harrowitz, thank you
so much for being on the show.
406
00:36:01.280 --> 00:36:05.519
A couple of things that I wanted
to kind of point out as as takeaways
407
00:36:05.559 --> 00:36:07.280
for our listeners, and if you
need to go back and listen to part
408
00:36:07.320 --> 00:36:09.760
of this again, I would encourage
you to do that. Talked a lot
409
00:36:09.800 --> 00:36:15.480
about radical collaboration and I think that
the what Dr Harrowitz and the and the
410
00:36:15.480 --> 00:36:19.760
TCS system are doing is pretty phodomenal
and I think it's a it's it's something
411
00:36:19.800 --> 00:36:22.440
that's going to need to continue to
develop. I think he had kind of
412
00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:25.719
said at the beginning about the idea
of being able to see more and more
413
00:36:25.719 --> 00:36:30.840
of those types of systems happening.
But I would also challenge you just internally
414
00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:36.800
in your own college, in your
own cabinet level, radical collaboration anywhere is
415
00:36:36.840 --> 00:36:39.800
going to benefit everything, and so
being able to work together as a marketing
416
00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:43.719
team with the enrollment team, being
able to work as an enrollment team with
417
00:36:43.760 --> 00:36:49.159
the student success and student life team, everyone working together and collaborating in a
418
00:36:49.280 --> 00:36:52.400
radical way for the end user,
the student, is going to really make
419
00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:57.000
a big difference in your institution.
So I would really really take that up.
420
00:36:57.039 --> 00:36:59.599
On on some of the ideas that
Dr Harrowits has talked about, I
421
00:36:59.639 --> 00:37:00.960
would all so really like to point
out the fact that we talked a lot
422
00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:07.039
about the idea of unique and authentic
messaging and especially we talked a lot about
423
00:37:07.079 --> 00:37:10.119
the adult students and the idea that
there's gonna be different audiences, the idea
424
00:37:10.159 --> 00:37:15.159
of creating different personas and different marketing
aspects of to these audiences and being able
425
00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:19.760
to deliver your authentic message. I
think to Dr Her it's his point.
426
00:37:20.519 --> 00:37:22.719
You need to really be authentic and
to define who you are as an institution.
427
00:37:23.119 --> 00:37:27.199
You're not going to attract every student
out there, nor should you.
428
00:37:27.199 --> 00:37:30.079
You should attract the ones that are
going to succeed the most at your institution
429
00:37:30.199 --> 00:37:32.559
and being authentic and leading with that. I think that's going to be the
430
00:37:34.039 --> 00:37:37.440
key for you to really have some
success in that. And I think another
431
00:37:37.480 --> 00:37:39.719
thing just that kind of is the
overarching thing that we've talked about here today
432
00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:45.079
that we didn't really define, but
there's a great book called story brand and
433
00:37:45.079 --> 00:37:46.760
it's the idea that when you are
doing any kind of marketing, you want
434
00:37:46.760 --> 00:37:52.480
to use the your end user,
as the hero and and and your school
435
00:37:52.519 --> 00:37:55.440
then is the supporting it's it's kind
of like the Luke skywalker and Yoda.
436
00:37:55.480 --> 00:38:00.440
Your student is the Luke Skywalker and
you're gonna help them with their journey and
437
00:38:00.440 --> 00:38:02.320
you're gonna be the Yoda to come
along. But when you're doing your marketing,
438
00:38:02.719 --> 00:38:06.800
it's not about you as the school, it's about the student and where
439
00:38:06.840 --> 00:38:08.480
they're going to be at the end
of the day because of the experience that
440
00:38:08.519 --> 00:38:12.280
they had with you. And so
we want to make sure that everything that
441
00:38:12.280 --> 00:38:15.320
we're doing from our marketing standpoint,
it's radically collaborating with others on campus.
442
00:38:15.639 --> 00:38:20.000
We're delivering our unique and authentic story
and we're focused on the fact that the
443
00:38:20.039 --> 00:38:22.880
student is the hero. So thanks
again, Dr Harvards. It's been a
444
00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:24.760
great pleasure to have you on the
show. That was a great summary and
445
00:38:25.480 --> 00:38:30.840
something for me to learn with that
reference. Thank you for a great conversation.
446
00:38:31.800 --> 00:38:37.119
The Higher Ed Marketer podcast. It's
sponsored by Kaylor solutions and education marketing
447
00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:45.400
and branding agency and by think patented
a Marketing Execution Company combining print, digital
448
00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:51.800
and mailing for Higher Ed Solutions.
On behalf of Bart Kaylor. I'm troy
449
00:38:51.960 --> 00:38:58.639
singer. Thank you for joining us. You've been listening to the Higher Ed
450
00:38:58.719 --> 00:39:01.960
Marketer too, sure that you never
miss an episode. Subscribe to the show
451
00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:07.880
in your favorite podcast player. If
you're listening with apple PODCASTS, we'd love
452
00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:10.360
for you to leave a quick rating
of the show. Simply tap the number
453
00:39:10.360 --> 00:39:14.719
of stars you think the podcast deserves. Until next time,