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Sept. 6, 2022

How To Market a University with Teresa Flannery

How To Market a University with Teresa Flannery

While there are common elements across marketing (the 4 P’s), higher education marketing presents some unique challenges with the diversity of audiences, the buying cycle, and the customer journey.

Today we welcome Teresa Flannery to talk about her book, How to Market a University. In this episode, Teresa unpacks the language, frameworks, tools, and tactics that CMOs or aspiring CMOs will need to lead the world of marketing in higher education. 

Teresa Flannery has spent her entire career in higher education. She was the first marketing director and chief marketing officer at the University of Maryland and the first Vice President of Communications at American University. Recently, Teresa accepted the role of Executive VP and Chief Operating Officer at CASE.  

Teresa’s book, How to Market a University, engages leaders and CMOs in discussing their work and its strategic nature and purpose. 

The book has also been developed into a master course on Enrollify, a digital resource hub designed to empower the modern enrollment marketer. 

Join us as we discuss:

  • The idea for the first fully digital professional development experience for enrollment marketers through the book How to Market a University and master course. 
  • Why are Higher Education organizations in the best position they’ve ever been in? 
  • Why Chief Marketing Officers (CMOs) are coming from outside higher education to roles inside the sector? 

How to Market a University: https://www.amazon.com/How-Market-University-Competitive-Environment/dp/1421440342/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1Q3DRFNNUQGIH&keywords=how+to+market+a+university&qid=1659357687&s=books&sprefix=how+to+market+a+uni%2Cstripbooks%2C114&sr=1-1 

How to Market a University Master Course: https://www.enrollify.org/mastercourse/how-to-market-a-university?utm_campaign=EDU%20Marketing%20Minute&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Revue%20newsletter 

The Higher Ed Marketer podcast is sponsored by Caylor Solutions, an Education Marketing and Branding Agency, and by Think Patented, a Marketing Execution, Printing and Mailing provider of Higher Ed solutions.

    

 

Transcript

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:06.320 The High Red Marketer podcast is sponsored by the ZEMI APP enabling colleges and universities 2 00:00:06.519 --> 00:00:15.199 to engage interested students before they even apply. You're listening to the Higher Ed 3 00:00:15.279 --> 00:00:20.519 Marketer, a podcast geared towards marketing professionals in higher education. This show will 4 00:00:20.559 --> 00:00:25.440 tackle all sorts of questions related to student recruitment, donor relations, marketing trends, 5 00:00:25.440 --> 00:00:30.239 new technologies and so much more. If you're looking for conversations centered around 6 00:00:30.239 --> 00:00:34.399 where the industry is going, this podcast is for you. Let's get into 7 00:00:34.439 --> 00:00:45.280 the show. Welcome to the High Ed Marketer podcast. This week we are 8 00:00:45.439 --> 00:00:51.280 so excited to talk to Dr Terry Flannery. As most of you know, 9 00:00:51.479 --> 00:00:57.520 she is the Executive Vice President and Chief Operating Officer at case and she is 10 00:00:57.560 --> 00:01:02.280 also the author of a book that both bar and I are fanboys of. 11 00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:07.879 It's called how to market a university and, as she does with everything she 12 00:01:08.200 --> 00:01:17.879 touches, she really brings authentic information through our podcast episode today. Yeah, 13 00:01:17.959 --> 00:01:21.760 try. I really am so grateful that Dr Flannery could join us today. 14 00:01:21.920 --> 00:01:26.640 Terry brings, like you said, authentic communication, warmth, the way that 15 00:01:26.719 --> 00:01:30.719 she's just passionate about what she's doing. It's so clear and it's so clear 16 00:01:30.760 --> 00:01:34.840 that she's been successful. Um, the book is Great. Uh, you 17 00:01:34.840 --> 00:01:38.239 know, much like our podcast. It's it's simple into the point. You 18 00:01:38.239 --> 00:01:41.200 know, the Higher Ed Marketer is simple, into the point. How to 19 00:01:41.239 --> 00:01:44.159 market a university is simple, into the point, and I think that's one 20 00:01:44.200 --> 00:01:47.519 of the things that really draws troy and I to to the book. And 21 00:01:47.519 --> 00:01:49.159 one thing that's really exciting, we'll talk about a little bit more and unpacking 22 00:01:49.280 --> 00:01:53.439 on the on the conversation, is that there's also a master course around the 23 00:01:53.480 --> 00:01:57.040 content of the book, Um, that that you and your institution can take 24 00:01:57.040 --> 00:02:00.719 at a very affordable price, just to kind of here a lot of expertise 25 00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:06.959 from Dr Flannery as well as fifteen of the leading thinkers in Higher Reed Marketing, 26 00:02:06.959 --> 00:02:08.719 and so I would encourage you to kind of listen to that part and 27 00:02:08.759 --> 00:02:14.479 maybe take advantage of that in the show notes as well. Here's our conversation 28 00:02:14.639 --> 00:02:20.280 with Dr Terry Flannery. Here's a wealth of knowledge that we are looking forward 29 00:02:20.319 --> 00:02:23.520 to getting from you during our podcast. But I'm going to ask you this 30 00:02:23.560 --> 00:02:30.879 initial question of is there anything that you've learned recently that's interesting or something that 31 00:02:30.919 --> 00:02:37.800 you think would be worth sharing. Yeah, I think Um, something that's 32 00:02:37.840 --> 00:02:44.639 really struck me in the last week is how hungry people are for meaningful in 33 00:02:44.759 --> 00:02:51.159 person connection to different contexts for that. So I'm seeing in my office how 34 00:02:51.199 --> 00:02:53.719 important it is, if we're bringing people back into the office to work on 35 00:02:53.800 --> 00:02:58.479 certain days, that it shouldn't be just to do what they could do at 36 00:02:58.520 --> 00:03:01.879 home, looking at their screen and having interactions that they could do anytime. 37 00:03:01.879 --> 00:03:07.560 It's got to really be reasons to be there together. And then, uh, 38 00:03:07.719 --> 00:03:14.240 sort of a different context. First in Person Global Leadership Summit for case 39 00:03:14.919 --> 00:03:20.639 in three years, and people were so happy to be together, so grateful. 40 00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:24.719 The connections were almost more effusive than they have ever been and you can 41 00:03:24.759 --> 00:03:29.639 just see that it's meeting a need that can't easily be met in any other 42 00:03:29.680 --> 00:03:35.560 way. That's great. Yes, I recently just attended a higher Ed Conference 43 00:03:35.599 --> 00:03:39.400 for the first time in person in a while and I concur I felt that 44 00:03:39.560 --> 00:03:44.240 energy too, and people were talking about it and excited to be together. 45 00:03:44.319 --> 00:03:50.400 So thank you. We've seen you in social media and Linkedin a lot lately, 46 00:03:50.439 --> 00:03:53.159 but for some of our listeners who may not know who you are, 47 00:03:53.680 --> 00:03:58.120 please let us know and then a little bit about your new role that you've 48 00:03:58.159 --> 00:04:03.479 taken. Sure. So I'm someone WHO's worked in higher education my entire adult 49 00:04:03.520 --> 00:04:09.080 life. Um, I've only ever worked in higher education. My experience is, 50 00:04:09.199 --> 00:04:13.319 broadly speaking, in the areas of student of average, where I started 51 00:04:13.360 --> 00:04:16.560 out, enrollment and admissions, where I was for eleven years, and then, 52 00:04:17.279 --> 00:04:20.439 Um, the remainder of my career, the bulk of it working as 53 00:04:20.480 --> 00:04:27.360 a marketing and communications professional, leading that work at three institutions as a member 54 00:04:27.399 --> 00:04:30.800 of the executive team, and I've just transitioned to a new role as the 55 00:04:30.879 --> 00:04:35.959 executive vice president and Chief Operating Officer at case, which is the council for 56 00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:43.240 advancement and support of education, and it's a professional association that represents and serves 57 00:04:43.279 --> 00:04:49.360 the professional development needs of folks who work in integrated advancement in the education sector. 58 00:04:49.439 --> 00:04:54.759 So that would represent, broadly speaking, people that do marketing and communications 59 00:04:54.759 --> 00:04:59.920 work, people that do alumni relations work and people that do fundraising and development 60 00:05:00.199 --> 00:05:05.000 in higher education and in independent secondary schools. So it's a chance to broaden 61 00:05:05.920 --> 00:05:15.360 my leadership impact for a global association that represents almost member institutions in schools and 62 00:05:15.800 --> 00:05:24.000 about nine thousand advancement professionals across the world. We appreciate the work that case 63 00:05:24.120 --> 00:05:30.160 does and I'm so glad that you are part of that leadership team. The 64 00:05:30.199 --> 00:05:33.759 reason why we invited you on because you have a book that has been getting 65 00:05:33.800 --> 00:05:39.879 a lot of attention and as a result, I think a certain curriculum has 66 00:05:39.920 --> 00:05:44.680 been created. So, for those of you who don't know, her book 67 00:05:44.759 --> 00:05:47.560 is how to market a university, and that's right to the point and I 68 00:05:47.600 --> 00:05:51.439 think gets the attention of a lot of higher reed marketers. Could you tell 69 00:05:51.519 --> 00:05:55.879 us a little bit about the backstory of the book, why you wrote it, 70 00:05:56.240 --> 00:06:00.720 and then maybe a couple of highlights to get US started? M Sure, 71 00:06:01.079 --> 00:06:05.439 I don't think I would have ever had the nerve, um or the 72 00:06:05.519 --> 00:06:10.439 courage to think about writing this book on my own, but I was approached 73 00:06:10.439 --> 00:06:15.639 by the editor of the Johns Hopkins University Press, the editorial director Um, 74 00:06:15.680 --> 00:06:19.959 and he came to me and said that they had this series for higher education 75 00:06:20.120 --> 00:06:28.560 leaders, UM, practical little books Um that helped presidents, Provost Trustees think 76 00:06:28.600 --> 00:06:31.439 about how to work successfully in higher education. So there are books on how 77 00:06:31.439 --> 00:06:34.759 to run a college, how to work with the university board, and he 78 00:06:34.800 --> 00:06:40.519 really felt like they needed a book on how to market universities and he noticed 79 00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:46.120 that higher education leaders, presidents especially, are just hungry to know how to 80 00:06:46.160 --> 00:06:48.319 do this work well. They want to know how to organize it, how 81 00:06:48.319 --> 00:06:53.240 to resource it and how to measure success in that area, and he so. 82 00:06:53.279 --> 00:06:57.560 He says that he asked ten people who should write the book and they 83 00:06:57.560 --> 00:07:01.120 all gave him my name, which I think was strict lead flattery, but 84 00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:05.399 it worked and I was thrilled, of course, and then once I had 85 00:07:05.439 --> 00:07:10.439 agreed to do it, then it was terrified. But it's been quite a 86 00:07:10.439 --> 00:07:15.160 privilege to write this book and it really is uh important to note that the 87 00:07:15.199 --> 00:07:19.519 target audience, for primary audience, is really those hired leaders Um. So 88 00:07:19.560 --> 00:07:24.800 I was speaking to them, trying to help them understand our work and its 89 00:07:24.839 --> 00:07:29.720 strategic nature and purpose. But I had a secondary audience that we've included and 90 00:07:29.759 --> 00:07:32.920 how how I wrote the book, which is chief marketing officers and their teams. 91 00:07:33.279 --> 00:07:36.560 So every chapter in the book has a set of discussion questions that are 92 00:07:36.600 --> 00:07:43.360 designed to engage leaders and CMOS in discussion about where they are on that part 93 00:07:43.360 --> 00:07:48.000 of the work. That's great and I really appreciate it because I I'm reading 94 00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:53.879 it and it's it's just fascinating and really practical information and I love the fact 95 00:07:53.879 --> 00:07:57.920 that you've created those, Um, those listening sessions and those talking points that 96 00:07:58.079 --> 00:08:01.240 the teams can work through. Um. I also recognize that, Um, 97 00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:05.240 you know some of some of what's happened as you've taken content of that U 98 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:11.120 of that book and partnered with our our good friends over it and rollify. 99 00:08:11.399 --> 00:08:15.560 We've had Zach on the on the on the conversation on the podcast at a 100 00:08:15.560 --> 00:08:18.120 time or two, and several of the other folks that are on the online 101 00:08:18.279 --> 00:08:24.079 master course on how to market a university. Um, Ethan Branden from purdue 102 00:08:24.360 --> 00:08:28.600 and UH and Jamie Hunt, a lot of really good friends of the podcast 103 00:08:28.639 --> 00:08:31.959 have been on that as well. So tell us a little bit about kind 104 00:08:31.959 --> 00:08:35.159 of the evolution of that, you know, taking the book and then getting 105 00:08:35.159 --> 00:08:41.200 it into a master course. Yeah, so Zach approached me about doing a 106 00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:43.320 podcast related to the book and once he started reading and he said I'm not 107 00:08:43.360 --> 00:08:48.840 sure we can do this justice in one session. Um, would you be 108 00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:50.679 willing to think about doing a series? And I said, well, Shark, 109 00:08:50.759 --> 00:08:52.799 yeah, well, I'll take a little more time in preparation, and 110 00:08:52.840 --> 00:08:56.919 then he came back to me again and he said I got a really crazy 111 00:08:56.960 --> 00:09:00.440 idea, um, but you know, we have an idea, we have 112 00:09:00.519 --> 00:09:05.639 some thinking about maybe developing a series of master courses. Would you be willing 113 00:09:05.720 --> 00:09:09.440 to use your book as the subject and be the expert and help us develop 114 00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:13.720 a prototype for this course? And they've got a really uh with enrolling and 115 00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:20.320 rollified. They've got a really wild premise that they imagine developing the first fully 116 00:09:20.360 --> 00:09:26.840 digital professional development experience for enrollment marketers, which isn't keeping with the podcast that 117 00:09:26.879 --> 00:09:30.440 you guys do and a lot of the other content that's out there. Um. 118 00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:33.840 That align beautifully with my interest my new role, obviously at case and 119 00:09:35.559 --> 00:09:41.159 um in Um, thinking about how we continue to mature this profession and develop 120 00:09:41.360 --> 00:09:45.600 a group of professionals who have been raised in higher education to do this work. 121 00:09:45.639 --> 00:09:50.879 Well, thinking about what's the right channel or format to develop um the 122 00:09:50.919 --> 00:09:54.080 material in a way that it can really have the most impact. And so 123 00:09:54.720 --> 00:09:58.159 the course. It takes a master course approach. So I'm sort of the 124 00:09:58.200 --> 00:10:01.799 stage on the stage a little bit, but I didn't want to. I 125 00:10:01.240 --> 00:10:05.600 knew you don't do asynchronous courses in that way. That doesn't work right. 126 00:10:05.000 --> 00:10:09.080 So the first thing I did was call fifty. I phone fifteen friends, 127 00:10:09.240 --> 00:10:13.279 some of whom you've mentioned, Um, and said would you come play with 128 00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:18.240 us so that your expertise rounds out my voice and we're not just learning from 129 00:10:18.279 --> 00:10:22.919 one person? They all said yes. I'm grateful for that. They shared 130 00:10:22.960 --> 00:10:28.279 incredible expertise. So Zach traveled all around the country to interview them all and 131 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:33.679 have them contribute content on different aspects of the books chapters as we went along. 132 00:10:35.120 --> 00:10:39.960 Um and then we developed a series of both sprint exercises. Every session 133 00:10:39.039 --> 00:10:45.360 is a sprint exercises designed make you stop for two minutes and just think kind 134 00:10:45.399 --> 00:10:48.159 of right in a rainstorming mode, really quickly, which helps kind of get 135 00:10:48.200 --> 00:10:52.000 the juices flowing, even if you're in an asynchronous format. Um. And 136 00:10:52.039 --> 00:10:56.759 then there are some exercises that are developed to apply the material in the book 137 00:10:56.799 --> 00:11:01.159 in a much more specific way your institution when you leave it. So it's 138 00:11:01.200 --> 00:11:07.360 been um very successful in helping people to engage in the content in a different 139 00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:09.840 way. That's great and I and just for everyone's reference, will have in 140 00:11:09.879 --> 00:11:15.919 the show notes links to both the book and the Master Course, Um and 141 00:11:16.120 --> 00:11:18.399 UH and and that would be a great opportunity and it's very affordable. I 142 00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:22.080 mean obviously the books affordable, but also the master courses as well, and 143 00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:26.360 so you'll find details on that. But I am I'm fascinated with that in 144 00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:31.039 the sense that, Um, you know, what's the what's the feedback been 145 00:11:31.080 --> 00:11:35.679 so far? I mean, obviously there's a lot of opportunity here and Um, 146 00:11:35.759 --> 00:11:39.039 you know, we know that there's, you know, five thousand institutions, 147 00:11:39.320 --> 00:11:41.759 uh, that that are recognized in the United States, and a lot 148 00:11:41.840 --> 00:11:46.080 of different sizes. I mean we've got tiny, tiny schools all the way 149 00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:50.480 up to too large, Um d one schools. What's the feedback been and 150 00:11:50.759 --> 00:11:56.919 how? How has that kind of impacted what you're doing? It's been very 151 00:11:56.000 --> 00:12:01.120 rewarding. So, if there are five thousand recognized institutions, then we've got 152 00:12:01.159 --> 00:12:05.919 ten percent of them already registered for this course, which I think is impressive. 153 00:12:07.080 --> 00:12:11.480 Right. Um, we have more than five hundred entities that have registered 154 00:12:11.559 --> 00:12:16.320 and a bunch of them are not just individuals but um institutions that have purchased 155 00:12:16.360 --> 00:12:24.840 the institutional access and they're using the content for um either lunch and learn trainings 156 00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:30.039 with either the immediate marketing team or the enrollment team, or maybe a broader 157 00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:33.519 campus communicator group, but they're coming together for each of the sessions, watching 158 00:12:33.559 --> 00:12:37.279 them and then talking together about the content. And then others are using it 159 00:12:37.639 --> 00:12:41.679 as a different means of conversation with the leadership. So there are some that 160 00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:46.559 the president, the UM chief development officer, the chief marketing officer, chief 161 00:12:46.639 --> 00:12:52.519 enrollment officer are watching it together and then having conversations. So I would say, 162 00:12:52.960 --> 00:12:56.120 you know, in just a couple of months we launched the content in 163 00:12:56.799 --> 00:13:01.519 Um, well, let's see, end of April and we're at the recording 164 00:13:01.519 --> 00:13:05.320 of this session late July. So that I think that's pretty good pick up 165 00:13:05.360 --> 00:13:07.480 for a few months and it's it's doing good things for the book sales and 166 00:13:09.159 --> 00:13:13.799 that's good. I'm so glad to hear that. The feedback has been great 167 00:13:13.919 --> 00:13:16.639 quantitatively too. I mean qualitatively as well. We talk a lot about it 168 00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:20.879 on the show. Schools are really struggling today that make the same at spend 169 00:13:20.879 --> 00:13:26.159 work. CPMS are up eight nine year over year on facebook and instagram. 170 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:31.639 Our College clients are no longer looking for rented audiences. They're looking for an 171 00:13:31.639 --> 00:13:35.000 owned community where they can engage students even before they apply. This is why 172 00:13:35.080 --> 00:13:39.200 Zemi has become so crucial for our clients. With over one million students, 173 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:43.879 close to ten thousand five star ratings, consistently ranked as one of the top 174 00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:48.559 social lapps and recently one of Apple's hot APPs of the week, there simply 175 00:13:48.639 --> 00:13:52.320 isn't anything out there like it and we have seen it all. Zem Not 176 00:13:52.440 --> 00:13:56.799 only provides the best space for student engagement, but the most unique and actional 177 00:13:56.960 --> 00:14:03.320 data for their one sixty college and university partners. We know firsthand from our 178 00:14:03.360 --> 00:14:07.600 clients that Zee me is a must have strategy for Gen z check them out 179 00:14:07.639 --> 00:14:13.840 now at colleges dot Zem dot com. That's colleges dot Z E M E 180 00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:20.039 dot Com. And yes, tell them. Barton Troy sent you. Bart 181 00:14:20.039 --> 00:14:22.960 and I both think that any listener, if you haven't had a chance to 182 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:28.320 go out and get the book or purchase the course, the police do so. 183 00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:33.360 Terry, in a recent conversation we had with you, you express your 184 00:14:33.480 --> 00:14:41.080 optimism and the opinion that the current state of Higher Ed organizations is very strong, 185 00:14:41.639 --> 00:14:46.080 and we'd love to know if you can expand upon that opinion for our 186 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:50.639 listeners. Yeah, I would say the opportunity is better than it's ever ever 187 00:14:50.759 --> 00:14:56.080 been in higher education. We've been able to demonstrate, particularly during the pandemic, 188 00:14:56.399 --> 00:15:00.720 maybe more on the COMMS side than the marketing side at first Um, 189 00:15:00.759 --> 00:15:07.279 but eventually in both areas, how integral our role is to meeting institutional priorities 190 00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:11.840 and strategic goals. Um and institutions are getting it and leaders, if they 191 00:15:11.879 --> 00:15:16.080 don't have the structure or the leadership or the organization to do this well, 192 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:20.720 are really kind of recognizing they got to get game in this regard, and 193 00:15:20.759 --> 00:15:26.200 so people who have developed this area of expertise and have a track record of 194 00:15:26.200 --> 00:15:31.559 demonstrated experience are going to be really in the driver's seat in terms of opportunities 195 00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:37.080 they've had um to lead the work and be a critical part of the Um 196 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:41.200 team at their institutions. I think that's tempered, though, with something that's 197 00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:45.120 really challenging, which we're seeing, and that's true of the entire sector, 198 00:15:45.399 --> 00:15:48.960 including marketing and communications and in the area of enrollment, which is that the 199 00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:54.200 great resignation is really affecting us. You know, the latest survey data that's 200 00:15:54.240 --> 00:15:58.399 coming in from a couple of different sources is saying that half of our professionals 201 00:15:58.440 --> 00:16:03.720 and Higher Ed are thinking about leaving higher education. EXCEPTOR entirely. They're not 202 00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:07.399 leaving work, they're going to work somewhere else, and so you've got this 203 00:16:07.639 --> 00:16:15.080 great opportunity at the same time that you have real potential loss because the challenges 204 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:18.799 and the rewards are not in a balance that people find, um attractive. 205 00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:22.919 So it's strong in some ways, the opportunity is great in some ways and 206 00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:26.480 in some other ways I think we've got real work to do. I find 207 00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:30.120 that interesting, Terry, because I agree with you. I think that there's 208 00:16:30.120 --> 00:16:33.879 a there's a there is that great resignation that's happening. I'm also fascinated with 209 00:16:33.879 --> 00:16:37.759 how many people I see that are coming outside of higher education into the chief 210 00:16:37.799 --> 00:16:42.600 marketing officer roles, UM, coming from health care, coming from other, 211 00:16:42.919 --> 00:16:48.480 you know, non related education, Um, you know verticals. I'm fascinated 212 00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:52.000 with that too. and Um, I'm just curious. I mean, as 213 00:16:52.039 --> 00:16:56.639 you I guess my question is more along the lines as as you are a 214 00:16:56.759 --> 00:17:03.600 lifelong career in higher education, Um, and we see people that have been 215 00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:07.559 in higher education honestly getting burned out and moving outside, and then we're seeing 216 00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:12.240 other people outside of higher education coming in and really making a huge difference, 217 00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:17.759 Um, in what they're doing, bringing bringing what I would consider more of 218 00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:22.279 you know, what is going on in the in the know commerce world into 219 00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:26.720 the Higher Ed Marketing type of roles. Where do you think that's going and 220 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:30.119 and how does that affect things? And and I guess as a follow up 221 00:17:30.200 --> 00:17:33.240 question is, and we'll get into a little bit more detail about this, 222 00:17:33.319 --> 00:17:37.440 it's the difference between a chief marketing officer and a vice president of enrollment slash 223 00:17:37.519 --> 00:17:44.720 marketing or vice president advancement slash marketing. So I know I just confused everybody 224 00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:48.000 with like three or four questions at once, so I apologize, but let's 225 00:17:48.039 --> 00:17:52.720 first start with kind of so let's first start with that thought about, you 226 00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:56.960 know, people coming and going from the from the career, from different paths. 227 00:18:00.039 --> 00:18:02.559 Well, I don't think people are just burnt out in higher education. 228 00:18:02.799 --> 00:18:06.880 I think it's safe to say that that's not the only sector where this is 229 00:18:06.920 --> 00:18:10.799 learning. I think people are looking to make change right and I think people 230 00:18:10.839 --> 00:18:17.480 are looking for environments where, Um, they can have meaningful impact and meaningful 231 00:18:17.559 --> 00:18:19.599 work. And a lot of times, if you're not in higher education, 232 00:18:19.640 --> 00:18:26.200 you're coming from another environment. You're looking for a more UM mission driven, 233 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:30.119 uh, compelling, Errand that gets you up every day. That's related to 234 00:18:30.640 --> 00:18:33.359 transforming lives in society, which is what higher education does right. So I 235 00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:41.559 think that's the attraction. Coming outside. Um, I would say um sometimes 236 00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:45.400 the movement within the sector can be just as refreshing. We're refreshing. I've 237 00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:48.720 seen a couple of CMOS who were doing great work at the institutions that they 238 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:53.559 were at just move somewhere else. The opportunities are right to make a move 239 00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:57.559 and put yourself on the driver's seat in terms of what's what you require in 240 00:18:57.640 --> 00:19:00.759 order to have a set a spying role and have it set up in the 241 00:19:00.839 --> 00:19:03.759 right way in the first place. So that's always good. But if people 242 00:19:03.799 --> 00:19:08.440 are coming from outside and they're bringing practices and tools they can help us develop 243 00:19:08.440 --> 00:19:12.079 in higher education, Great. I would say, with a caution, though, 244 00:19:12.200 --> 00:19:18.599 that I have seen people come from the corporate environment, from sectors like 245 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:23.359 healthcare, insurance finance, some who do really well and others who crash and 246 00:19:23.400 --> 00:19:27.680 burn, and when they crash and burn there's usually a couple of patterns behind 247 00:19:27.720 --> 00:19:30.240 it. One, they thought we worked nine months a year and they thought 248 00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:33.640 they'd be able to put up their feet any fond months, and then it 249 00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:37.359 would be an easier job. Ha, y'all know that's not true. I'm 250 00:19:37.400 --> 00:19:40.960 exaggerating, but still they think it's going to be a slower pace and nothing 251 00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:42.920 could be further from the truth. Um. The second thing is that, 252 00:19:44.359 --> 00:19:51.319 Um, they underestimate the strength of the culture of the academy and they don't 253 00:19:51.400 --> 00:19:56.200 take the time to learn and understand and appreciate it so that when they are 254 00:19:56.240 --> 00:20:00.640 trying to make decisions, they're trying to create the expectations for the pace that 255 00:20:00.759 --> 00:20:04.079 something will take, they do that in a way that they can move successfully 256 00:20:04.119 --> 00:20:07.319 as a leader in that environment, and sometimes they make real mistakes because they've 257 00:20:07.400 --> 00:20:11.960 underestimated that important I think that's a really fair way to say it. I 258 00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:17.920 think that there's a lot, often, many times that that that friction happens, 259 00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:22.640 even even in different ways, and not just in the marketing realm as 260 00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:27.160 well. Um. So so then let's talk a little bit about the that 261 00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:33.079 CMO versus the you know, vice president of blank plus marketing. Um, 262 00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:37.160 I know right now. You know some of the some of the reports show 263 00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:41.559 that CMOS report to the president of them have a seat at the cabinet. 264 00:20:42.279 --> 00:20:47.559 Um. Sometimes that you know that from a CMO standpoint. That's one thing. 265 00:20:47.599 --> 00:20:51.039 For also, most of the time from some of the smaller schools that 266 00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:55.359 that I've worked with, with the with the VP of advancement or enrollment slash 267 00:20:55.400 --> 00:20:57.880 marketing, most of the time they're at the cabinet as well, but there 268 00:20:59.559 --> 00:21:04.119 sometimes is their their marketing acumen is not as strong as what a CMO might 269 00:21:04.160 --> 00:21:07.160 be. So let's just kind of unpack that a little bit and tell me 270 00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:11.640 what your experience has been and how you see that shifting. There's still a 271 00:21:11.720 --> 00:21:15.920 lot of variability in the structures that we used to organize the work in higher 272 00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:19.160 education and we haven't settled on a model, but it's definitely in transition. 273 00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:26.079 And the data you mentioned about reporting to the President or chancellor and having a 274 00:21:26.119 --> 00:21:30.279 seat at the table comes from the latest CMO study that Simpson Scarborough developed Um, 275 00:21:30.279 --> 00:21:34.359 that they released late last year, beginning of this year, Um, 276 00:21:34.440 --> 00:21:38.640 and that's a trend that continues to increase. So that's risen every year. 277 00:21:40.200 --> 00:21:45.359 Um. So it's great to see marketing and communications have a seat at the 278 00:21:45.400 --> 00:21:52.079 table where strategy and institutional decision making about priority and resources are being made. 279 00:21:52.119 --> 00:22:00.519 That's an advantage right Um. But sometimes that results in Um uh, xturing 280 00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:06.559 or disintegration of all the things that marketing and communications should be influencing, and 281 00:22:06.599 --> 00:22:10.559 really that's true of any structure. So I have real trouble where enrollment is 282 00:22:10.599 --> 00:22:17.759 in one place and advancement is in another place and there isn't a leadership influence 283 00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:22.079 for marketing that's equal, because I think it really gets driven down to a 284 00:22:22.119 --> 00:22:29.119 functional level where it's more marketing and service of these other goals and it becomes 285 00:22:29.119 --> 00:22:36.279 a primarily promotional activity and it diminishes the importance of all the other aspects of 286 00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:41.839 marketing in terms of strategy, price product in place in the classic four PS 287 00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:48.000 of marketing. That don't ever get considered when it's operating as a tactical instead 288 00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:52.160 of a strategic function. If you have people who are leading those areas that 289 00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:56.480 have marketing reporting to them, they may not have expertise to really know how 290 00:22:56.519 --> 00:22:59.720 to organize it, how to resource it, how to measurement, and so 291 00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:04.039 that's which you're losing when the function is driven further down into the organization. 292 00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:08.160 And so, depending on where you are because of resources or history, and 293 00:23:08.200 --> 00:23:12.119 there's really, as I said, different models, the most important thing is 294 00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:18.759 to find leaders who are willing to collaborate with each other and think about the 295 00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:26.359 integration across the functions, regardless of where marketing sits in that environment. If 296 00:23:26.359 --> 00:23:30.559 they can recognize the value of the work and be willing to work together, 297 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:33.599 then the structure doesn't matter quite as much. I know that sounds idealistic, 298 00:23:33.680 --> 00:23:38.640 but that's what's required to surmount the hurdles of that kind of structure. And 299 00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:41.960 then there's all kinds of tools, and we talked about them in the book 300 00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:45.039 and and the course, to to help you with that integration and collaboration. 301 00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:48.599 There are ways you can account for that or gain that out a little bit, 302 00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:52.680 but it takes real intention and more. Yeah, I like that right 303 00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:56.440 there with the intention. Um, yeah, when we had I mentioned Ethan 304 00:23:56.440 --> 00:24:00.279 Branden from Perdue University earlier and he was on the podcast and something that has 305 00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:04.160 stuck with me that I've that I've borrowed with a lot of clients, giving 306 00:24:04.200 --> 00:24:07.400 him the credit, but it's one of the things that he talks about is 307 00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:11.039 that as as marketers, we have to stop being the short order cooks and 308 00:24:11.079 --> 00:24:15.000 we have to be the chefs. You know, we can't continue to just 309 00:24:15.079 --> 00:24:18.119 deliver this by Monday and make it look prettier and uh and and palatable. 310 00:24:18.519 --> 00:24:22.880 We have to kind of ask the hard questions. Is this? Is this 311 00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:27.480 moving US toward our overall goal as an institution, either for for, you 312 00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:32.279 know, advancement, or for enrollment? and Um, I think that that 313 00:24:32.319 --> 00:24:36.160 you're exactly right that collaboration has to happen, those conversations have to happen. 314 00:24:36.759 --> 00:24:41.519 Um. It's sometimes it's easier, when we're all tired, to just say, 315 00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:42.599 you know what, I'll just take the orders and just get them done. 316 00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:48.319 Um. But that is a downward spiral that can really destroy an institution 317 00:24:48.359 --> 00:24:52.839 pretty quickly if, if no one's at the helm for the marketing or the 318 00:24:52.880 --> 00:24:56.799 communications. Yeah, yeah, and I think it's incumbent on the marketing professional 319 00:24:57.480 --> 00:25:03.440 to act like the strategic thinker that they should be. Others will not know, 320 00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:07.680 they often don't understand the purpose of this work or how to organize it. 321 00:25:07.960 --> 00:25:10.720 So it's not going to be up to them to decide this is what 322 00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:12.599 you should be doing. You have to lead, you have to really lead. 323 00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:15.839 I think I think that's really I think that's really important, a really 324 00:25:15.960 --> 00:25:23.279 good way to say that, Terry. As we close our episode, would 325 00:25:23.359 --> 00:25:27.240 like to know if there is something that we didn't cover or a piece of 326 00:25:27.279 --> 00:25:33.240 advice that you could offer that could be implemented immediately, either by a marketing 327 00:25:33.319 --> 00:25:38.240 individual or a small marketing team. I'd like to encourage everyone to be empowered 328 00:25:38.279 --> 00:25:44.519 to act like the strategic marketing function that they hope to lead and represent. 329 00:25:45.880 --> 00:25:51.880 If you, um I, feel like you're being reduced to an order taker 330 00:25:52.359 --> 00:25:57.000 or that you are only valued for the work you do for promotional activity, 331 00:25:57.079 --> 00:26:03.160 then I'd encourage you to, for Find Your Institution Strategic Plan. Go Look, 332 00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:07.559 go find it and see what it identifies as the key strategic priorities of 333 00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:12.000 your institution and then think about in your role, in your specific role in 334 00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:18.319 your office, what could you do to connect your work to the meeting of 335 00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:22.920 one of those goals. And if you start to talk about and ask questions 336 00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:26.799 and act like that is your role, people will start to understand. You've 337 00:26:26.759 --> 00:26:30.799 got to walk the walk in order for them to understand really the purpose of 338 00:26:30.839 --> 00:26:34.480 marketing. So find that strategy somewhere at your institution and start connecting your work 339 00:26:34.480 --> 00:26:40.559 to it today. Thank you for that powerful response and the rest of the 340 00:26:40.599 --> 00:26:45.240 conversation we've had with you and uh, we're fans of you. I hope 341 00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:49.119 that comes across and we're so happy that you're a guest and to also further 342 00:26:49.400 --> 00:26:55.079 your mission and your influence and anything that we can do for you, we 343 00:26:55.119 --> 00:26:59.200 are willing to do so. Terry. And speaking of which, if someone 344 00:26:59.240 --> 00:27:02.960 wanted to contact at you and follow up, what would be the best way 345 00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:07.720 for them to contact you? Sure, Troy and Bart, thank you for 346 00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:11.359 this opportunity. I've loved it. I'm fans of you guys too. Um. 347 00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:15.640 We're all part of this community where this connection helps us right and if 348 00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:18.119 people want to connect with me, the easiest ways are through twitter. I'm 349 00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:23.359 at Higher Ed Wonk on Linkedin, Teresa flannery. Yes, it uses my 350 00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:27.559 formal first name. It's a little scary sometimes I think someone calls Me Teresa 351 00:27:27.640 --> 00:27:33.079 that it's my mother calling U or at case. You can reach me at 352 00:27:33.160 --> 00:27:37.400 t flannery at case dot org. And thank you again for the opportunity. 353 00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:42.119 You're welcome, but we consider it our pleasure and honor. Bart, did 354 00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:47.519 you have final thoughts that you would like to share before we take our episode 355 00:27:47.559 --> 00:27:51.920 to the end? Yeah, Troy, thank you and and Terry, thank 356 00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:55.160 you so again for being on the show. It's been great, Um, 357 00:27:55.240 --> 00:27:57.480 and if you've gotten anything out of this episode, I would just really encourage 358 00:27:57.519 --> 00:28:02.599 you to read the book, to you know, download the master course and 359 00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:06.440 take that. There's just so much wealth of information and what Terry shared with 360 00:28:06.519 --> 00:28:08.160 us today, what she's shared in the book, what She's shared in the 361 00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:11.559 master course, as well as her fifteen friends and what they bring to that. 362 00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:15.599 Um, just so many, so many really. I mean industry leaders, 363 00:28:15.640 --> 00:28:19.319 Bob Johnson, Um, the folks at apology, Um. You know, 364 00:28:19.400 --> 00:28:23.079 just a really a lot of really good thinkers, people who have been 365 00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:26.960 in the seat that you're sitting in, people that have been doing the work 366 00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:30.039 that you've been doing. Um. They bring a wealth of knowledge and so 367 00:28:30.079 --> 00:28:33.400 I really encourage you to look at those two things. And I really love 368 00:28:33.480 --> 00:28:37.240 that final thing that Terry talked about with just really trying to have some empathy 369 00:28:37.279 --> 00:28:41.319 and compassion and understand where you are and if you want to be at a 370 00:28:41.319 --> 00:28:45.079 certain place and you're the one that can start that. Um. I've seen 371 00:28:45.119 --> 00:28:48.319 that happen many, many times where, you know, I might be working 372 00:28:48.359 --> 00:28:52.000 with someone who's an art director or somebody who's who feels like they just don't 373 00:28:52.039 --> 00:28:56.480 have the authority to make change, but just by your attitude and the way 374 00:28:56.480 --> 00:29:00.440 that you approach things you can make change, and so I would encourage you 375 00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:02.960 to do that as well. So thank you so much. It's been a 376 00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:08.480 it's been a pleasure to have you the Higher Ed Marketer podcast that's sponsored by 377 00:29:08.839 --> 00:29:15.079 Kaylor solutions and education, marketing and branding agency and, I think patented a 378 00:29:15.160 --> 00:29:22.559 marketing execution company combining direct mail and unique digital stacks for a higher ed outreach 379 00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:29.000 success. On behalf of Bart Kaylor, I'm troy singer. Thank you for 380 00:29:29.119 --> 00:29:34.880 joining us. You've been listening to the Higher Ed Marketer. To ensure that 381 00:29:34.920 --> 00:29:38.960 you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. 382 00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:44.079 If you're listening with apple podcasts. We'd love for you to leave a 383 00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:47.559 quick rating of the show. Simply tap the number of stars do you think 384 00:29:47.559 --> 00:29:49.160 the podcast deserves. Until next time,