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June 22, 2021

Finding Unique Identifiers: Marketing & Small Colleges w/ Dan Sanchez

Finding Unique Identifiers: Marketing & Small Colleges w/ Dan Sanchez

With so many competing small colleges, it’s important to highlight what makes a specific college special. Whether it be ocean front property, close to the mountains, or offering a special major, the unique characteristics can make all the difference.

Dan Sanchez, Director of Audience Growth at SweetFish Media and formerly from Bethany Global University, talks about his past and current successes within marketing.

What we talked about:

- Specific Student Targeting Within Bethany Global University

- Marketing Operations on a Budget

- Dan’s Journey Into Marketing

- Success Advice for Small Colleges

Check out the resources below for more information:

- https://justdisciple.com/

- https://www.youtube.com/c/incomeschool


To hear more interviews like this one, subscribe to Higher Ed Marketer on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your preferred podcast platform.  

The Higher Ed Marketer podcast is sponsored by Caylor Solutions, an Education Marketing and Branding Agency, and by Think Patented, a Marketing Execution, Printing and Mailing provider of Higher Ed solutions.

    

 

Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.879 --> 00:00:07.190 You were listening to the Higher Ed Marketer, a podcast geared towards marketing professionals 2 00:00:07.230 --> 00:00:11.910 in higher education. This show will tackle all sorts of questions related to student 3 00:00:11.949 --> 00:00:16.230 recruitment, don'tor relations, marketing trends, new technologies and so much more. 4 00:00:16.989 --> 00:00:20.789 If you are looking for conversations centered around where the industry is going, this 5 00:00:20.989 --> 00:00:29.859 podcast is for you. Let's get into the show. Welcome to the High 6 00:00:29.899 --> 00:00:35.420 Reed Marketer podcast, where we have conversations with higher reed professionals that we admire 7 00:00:35.969 --> 00:00:40.450 to learn from for you and for us. I'm Roye singer and I'm here 8 00:00:40.490 --> 00:00:45.609 with Bart Taylor and we get to interview one of the people that we follow 9 00:00:45.770 --> 00:00:50.200 on Linkedin that were so impressed. He works both in the BEDB space but 10 00:00:50.359 --> 00:00:54.759 also in the higher marketer space. So Bart, tell everyone a little bit 11 00:00:54.799 --> 00:01:00.359 about Dan Chez, Dan Santiz. Yeah, so Dan Sanchez is is somebody 12 00:01:00.399 --> 00:01:04.590 that I met recently through a through another person, and he he does go 13 00:01:04.750 --> 00:01:10.670 by the Hashtag Dan chazz on on Linkedin and he's a really fascinating guy. 14 00:01:10.790 --> 00:01:15.390 He's he made a big impact for a very small school that I'm aware of. 15 00:01:15.950 --> 00:01:21.340 Two Small Bible College called Bethany Global University up in the Minneapolis and and 16 00:01:21.459 --> 00:01:26.219 then I later learned that he also did be to be marketing through a podcast 17 00:01:26.299 --> 00:01:30.140 and actually, full transparency, the company he's with, sweet fish media, 18 00:01:30.500 --> 00:01:34.769 produces the highered marketer podcast for us, and so we've been partners with them 19 00:01:34.810 --> 00:01:38.489 since late last year, and so it's been great to kind of get to 20 00:01:38.609 --> 00:01:42.569 know Dan, but also to kind of know that origin story of the impact 21 00:01:42.609 --> 00:01:48.400 that he made at a very small college and how the the incredible growth that 22 00:01:48.480 --> 00:01:51.640 he was able to do through a lot of marketing on small budgets. And 23 00:01:51.760 --> 00:01:53.319 so a lot of what we'll talk about today is you know what that looked 24 00:01:53.319 --> 00:01:57.359 like and how that came about. He is one of the most interesting follows 25 00:01:57.480 --> 00:02:02.230 that you can have on Linkedin and we're so excited to have a conversation with 26 00:02:02.310 --> 00:02:07.510 him. So instead of just talking about how good he is, let's bring 27 00:02:07.549 --> 00:02:14.509 him into the conversation. Please help me welcome Dan Sanchez, director of audience 28 00:02:14.669 --> 00:02:19.979 growth with sweet fish media and also previously with Bethley Global University, to the 29 00:02:20.060 --> 00:02:24.819 Higher Ed Marketer podcast. Dan, thank you for joining us today. Thank 30 00:02:24.819 --> 00:02:29.460 you for having me on the show. Our pleasure. If you could give 31 00:02:29.740 --> 00:02:34.889 us a little bit about your background and what you currently do to help marketers 32 00:02:35.009 --> 00:02:40.569 like us, both outside of Higher Ed but within the be tob space as 33 00:02:40.650 --> 00:02:45.599 well, certainly so. Currently I am the director of audience growth for a 34 00:02:45.639 --> 00:02:52.199 sweet fish media and it's a company focused on helping be to be brands produced 35 00:02:52.199 --> 00:02:55.000 podcasts. I'll often just meet with a lot of customers and talk about how 36 00:02:55.039 --> 00:03:00.550 to grow a podcast audience specifically. But before that I was working at a 37 00:03:00.590 --> 00:03:04.949 higher education institution called Bethany Global University, where I was the marketing director for 38 00:03:05.030 --> 00:03:09.870 about six years, and I started as a marketing department of one and grew. 39 00:03:10.629 --> 00:03:14.060 We together we are able to grow, and it's not just me, 40 00:03:14.139 --> 00:03:16.500 as always more more than just one person, but mean the admissions team. 41 00:03:16.539 --> 00:03:22.539 You know. We're able to triple the enrollment of the university in a and 42 00:03:22.620 --> 00:03:25.620 a short amount of time and a department grew from me to a department of 43 00:03:25.659 --> 00:03:30.129 about twenty four to twenty five people. Wow. You know, I thought 44 00:03:30.169 --> 00:03:34.770 I knew you and I follow you and I've had conversations, but I didn't 45 00:03:34.770 --> 00:03:38.449 realize that you had the growth at Bethne international like you did. So thank 46 00:03:38.490 --> 00:03:45.199 you for sharing that and I must say that Bart and I utilize sweet fish 47 00:03:45.360 --> 00:03:51.039 media to produce this podcast. So we we know your dynamics and we want 48 00:03:51.039 --> 00:03:54.520 to share it with our other brethren and Higher Ed Marketing. Bart. Yeah, 49 00:03:54.520 --> 00:03:57.949 I appreciate you being here, Dan, and I just wanted to I'm 50 00:03:57.990 --> 00:04:00.430 glad, Troy, you kind of made the transparency for everybody that we do 51 00:04:00.550 --> 00:04:03.189 work with sweet fish media. But I think the reason that we are working 52 00:04:03.229 --> 00:04:06.069 with sweetfish is kind of an interesting story, which brings us back to Bethny 53 00:04:06.110 --> 00:04:10.939 global. I do a lot of work with small Bible Colleges and small faith 54 00:04:10.979 --> 00:04:16.620 based institutions and the director of admissions can fear at Bethany Global University and I 55 00:04:16.699 --> 00:04:21.259 have been connected and we've attended several conferences to other and have gotten to know 56 00:04:21.339 --> 00:04:27.209 each other pretty well through Linkedin and and I know Ken has a really good 57 00:04:27.209 --> 00:04:30.649 friend of yours, Dan, and that's really how the introduction happened, is 58 00:04:30.689 --> 00:04:33.170 that as I was talking to Ken about some of his marketing and what was 59 00:04:33.209 --> 00:04:36.970 going on at Bgu, he kind of talked about some of the success that 60 00:04:38.009 --> 00:04:41.600 you guys have had together when you were at b Gu together, and and 61 00:04:41.800 --> 00:04:45.240 when I looked you up and saw that you were with sweetish media, now 62 00:04:45.399 --> 00:04:47.519 and I started looking into sweetish media and I saw that, well, it's 63 00:04:47.600 --> 00:04:50.920 podcast. That's pretty cool, and I think one thing led to another and 64 00:04:51.240 --> 00:04:54.750 here we are on episode, you know, Twenty eight or whatever of our 65 00:04:54.829 --> 00:04:59.189 podcast, and so so. But I wanted everybody on those on the show 66 00:04:59.269 --> 00:05:01.829 to understand that it kind of came out of Higher Ed and then kind of 67 00:05:01.829 --> 00:05:04.550 went to the podcasting. Now we're coming full circle, and so it's it's 68 00:05:04.589 --> 00:05:08.579 really great to be able to kind of talk about, you know, now 69 00:05:08.620 --> 00:05:11.620 that you and I have a relationship through sweetfish, to be able to talk 70 00:05:11.620 --> 00:05:14.899 about what you did at Bgu, because I do think that made such a 71 00:05:15.420 --> 00:05:17.779 impact and you know some of the stats that you just talked about. Obviously 72 00:05:17.779 --> 00:05:21.089 it's not a it's not one person that does it. It's and depending on 73 00:05:21.170 --> 00:05:25.290 where people are, there's credit for a lot of people. There's also, 74 00:05:25.329 --> 00:05:29.290 you know, divine intervention many times on these campuses, and so it I 75 00:05:29.410 --> 00:05:30.769 think it's important to kind of talk about that. But one of the things 76 00:05:30.810 --> 00:05:34.009 I wanted to talk about was just where did you start with? I mean 77 00:05:34.209 --> 00:05:36.519 you come on, you come on campus, you know, six, seven 78 00:05:36.519 --> 00:05:40.560 years ago, I don't know how long it was when you arrived, but, 79 00:05:41.279 --> 00:05:44.639 you know, most very small schools. And just to kind of put 80 00:05:44.680 --> 00:05:47.360 it in context, I mean what's the what's the enrollment at Bgu? I 81 00:05:47.399 --> 00:05:51.670 think it's important for people to understand it's currently at about three sixty, two 82 00:05:51.790 --> 00:05:55.230 hundred and seventy. Okay, now, that's always kind of going up and 83 00:05:55.269 --> 00:05:58.629 down. Yeah, yeah, and that's pretty typical. That's that's pretty typical 84 00:05:58.910 --> 00:06:01.550 of what I would consider small Bible colleges. I mean it's a very specific, 85 00:06:01.629 --> 00:06:08.819 very specific part of Christian higher education, part of a higher education in 86 00:06:08.939 --> 00:06:12.300 general, but that's a that's a that's a typical size of some of these 87 00:06:12.339 --> 00:06:15.420 smaller schools and I think sometimes when you look at that, and I know 88 00:06:15.500 --> 00:06:18.730 that we've talked to people from purdue and University of Kentucky, and this is 89 00:06:18.769 --> 00:06:23.250 a different type of podcast today, because, I mean it's one thing when 90 00:06:23.290 --> 00:06:27.170 you have a student body of fifty fivezero people. It's another thing when you 91 00:06:27.209 --> 00:06:31.050 have a student body of three hundred and sixty. And so the challenges that 92 00:06:31.170 --> 00:06:36.959 come with going in scale down obviously comes with the know how much money you 93 00:06:38.079 --> 00:06:41.199 have to spend and I know a lot of people get very frustrated, whether 94 00:06:41.199 --> 00:06:44.680 you're a whether you're a marketing department at a large school or Marketing Department at 95 00:06:44.720 --> 00:06:46.589 Small School. I so many times here. Boy, if we just had 96 00:06:46.629 --> 00:06:49.470 a little bit more money, we could do so much more, but you 97 00:06:49.589 --> 00:06:53.029 didn't have just a little bit more money. So tell us kind of what 98 00:06:53.149 --> 00:06:56.589 that was about, Dan, and how how that kind of informed you and 99 00:06:56.790 --> 00:06:59.709 what you did about that, because obviously you didn't just sit by and say, 100 00:06:59.949 --> 00:07:02.019 Oh, woe is me. I'm willing to share as many details and 101 00:07:02.060 --> 00:07:09.139 numbers as I could possibly remember. I actually was working at an agency that 102 00:07:09.220 --> 00:07:14.100 I wasn't really happy and when can the guy you'd mentioned was work, he'd 103 00:07:14.139 --> 00:07:16.329 got put in charge of marketing and admissions because he's kind of an operations get 104 00:07:16.370 --> 00:07:20.009 they're like hey, can you run a call center before? We just laid 105 00:07:20.009 --> 00:07:23.889 off the admissions guy year in charge now, and he's like okay, but 106 00:07:23.970 --> 00:07:27.569 he's kind of a go get it kind of person. So he calls one 107 00:07:27.610 --> 00:07:30.319 of the closest, one of the closer friends he has that he knows nose 108 00:07:30.360 --> 00:07:34.199 marketing. And that was me. But I was twenty six, like I 109 00:07:34.279 --> 00:07:36.839 wasn't at old, you know, I was kind of like just starting in 110 00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:40.759 my career, but I was doing well in a marketing agency and I just 111 00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:45.230 had just been inquired by another agency that was a shopper marketing agency, which 112 00:07:45.230 --> 00:07:47.750 is like the kind of stuff you do to sell more package consumer goods at 113 00:07:47.790 --> 00:07:53.269 like Walmartin grocery stores and stuff. Not My favorite thing, the direction that 114 00:07:53.389 --> 00:07:57.829 was heading. So naturally a phone call turned to, you know, advice, 115 00:07:58.029 --> 00:08:01.500 turned to paid consulting, turned to freelance, turned to lots of freelance 116 00:08:01.540 --> 00:08:03.379 and then I was like okay, I think, I think I'd like to 117 00:08:03.459 --> 00:08:05.019 work there full time. So I had such a good time. So actually 118 00:08:05.019 --> 00:08:09.300 did the whole website for them and a little bit of branding work. Not 119 00:08:09.420 --> 00:08:13.649 a lot, but it's just getting cleaning things up and helping them get back 120 00:08:13.649 --> 00:08:16.610 on track, running some ad words, and then I came on full time. 121 00:08:18.569 --> 00:08:22.050 The budget at the time was probably, it's going to think, somewhere 122 00:08:22.050 --> 00:08:26.170 around eighty to ninety thousand dollars and most of that went to Webber, which 123 00:08:26.329 --> 00:08:31.799 is like a poor schools waited like outsource financial aid. I think about half 124 00:08:31.840 --> 00:08:35.840 of it with the Webber. So there's not much left considering that. And 125 00:08:35.960 --> 00:08:39.399 that's not including salaries, that's just including budget. But then you have opera. 126 00:08:39.519 --> 00:08:43.950 Like saw operational costs in their printing, brochures and advertising. I think 127 00:08:45.029 --> 00:08:48.750 my advertising budget was of Thirtyzero when I first started, which just isn't a 128 00:08:48.029 --> 00:08:52.350 big budget for a school. It is tiny, but they only had an 129 00:08:52.389 --> 00:08:56.940 incoming class the year before at a forty four students, which is like so 130 00:08:58.179 --> 00:09:01.139 small and even for an Abah school that's like low. That's like we're not 131 00:09:01.220 --> 00:09:05.019 accredited yet, we're just starting in the accreditation process and Abach he's like, 132 00:09:07.139 --> 00:09:09.289 we don't know if we want to give you accreditation because your enrollments not looking 133 00:09:09.330 --> 00:09:13.769 good. They're like yeah, but if we get accredited enrollment will improve. 134 00:09:13.809 --> 00:09:18.570 They're like it's like a chicken in the egg problem, right. But that 135 00:09:18.730 --> 00:09:20.690 was my task I came in. But I also saw an opportunity from the 136 00:09:20.769 --> 00:09:24.519 outside, because they didn't know it, but they actually were sitting on a 137 00:09:24.600 --> 00:09:31.000 really good position because they're a school that was highly focused on just one degree 138 00:09:31.039 --> 00:09:33.519 jet and they only trained Christian missionaries and they had the way of doing it 139 00:09:33.639 --> 00:09:37.000 that was kind of unique and I knew enough for my like working at other 140 00:09:37.039 --> 00:09:43.070 Christian nonprofits and having that kind of a background, that there's there's at least 141 00:09:43.070 --> 00:09:46.549 a few thousand people that are thinking about becoming in a that are an aspiring 142 00:09:46.590 --> 00:09:48.830 missionary, like they want to figure out how to get to the mission field. 143 00:09:48.830 --> 00:09:50.629 I also knew that there's not really a clear path to get there. 144 00:09:50.629 --> 00:09:54.220 Like how does one become a missionary? Exactly, like even if you're listening 145 00:09:54.259 --> 00:09:58.779 to this and you're you're you're not a Christian, you're not in that camp, 146 00:09:58.940 --> 00:10:01.580 like how would you like how do you think people get there? Like 147 00:10:01.740 --> 00:10:03.580 do they go to college? Do they just go to the contact their pastor 148 00:10:03.779 --> 00:10:07.610 like, what's the steps for that? So I knew there would be a 149 00:10:07.730 --> 00:10:09.690 market for it. They actually saw it at the time. Time is it 150 00:10:09.809 --> 00:10:13.409 was too limited, right, and that's how a lot of small schools feel 151 00:10:13.409 --> 00:10:16.049 like, Oh, if only we had more degree programs, we would attract 152 00:10:16.049 --> 00:10:20.169 a larger audience. Actually feel like it's the opposite. By being more focused, 153 00:10:20.370 --> 00:10:24.960 you can actually create more momentum and instead of just focusing sometimes, in 154 00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:28.679 Bethany's case, instead of just focusing regionally, I went nationally because I knew 155 00:10:28.679 --> 00:10:33.399 I could just attap try to attract a very specific kind of person. So, 156 00:10:33.559 --> 00:10:37.909 with a small budget, we actually focused at first on just really like 157 00:10:39.110 --> 00:10:41.629 not branding not even like large strategy stuff. was just trying to craft the 158 00:10:41.669 --> 00:10:46.230 right value proposition, trying to get the right message in front of just the 159 00:10:46.269 --> 00:10:50.980 right person, which for us, for the size of our budget and the 160 00:10:52.700 --> 00:10:56.220 kind of the so it's such a niche type of person you're trying to look 161 00:10:56.220 --> 00:10:58.100 for. The only two meetings we could really find them on, and it's 162 00:10:58.100 --> 00:11:01.500 still kind of a struggle to this day, and I'll could talk about that 163 00:11:01.539 --> 00:11:05.370 later, was Google ad words, people searching for it. Luckily there was 164 00:11:05.490 --> 00:11:09.690 some search volume for this. And facebook. We actually got really lucky that 165 00:11:11.049 --> 00:11:13.370 right about the time I was considering facebook adds is right when they started putting 166 00:11:13.370 --> 00:11:18.009 ads in the new speed and we took advantage that summer. Like it was 167 00:11:18.490 --> 00:11:20.480 only a few months after they first started doing that, and that's when facebook 168 00:11:20.480 --> 00:11:26.759 ads really started to go crazy. We split tested things, we use lots 169 00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:31.200 of creative we try to hone it in. Run people to a landing page, 170 00:11:31.240 --> 00:11:33.669 get them to request a brochure and then, slowly but surely, we 171 00:11:33.750 --> 00:11:37.350 kind of built out the process for how to follow up with them in order 172 00:11:37.350 --> 00:11:39.190 to get them to apply and walk the rest of the way down the admissions 173 00:11:39.190 --> 00:11:43.429 funnel. But it was a really simple step. You're talking one landing page 174 00:11:43.830 --> 00:11:48.019 and digital ads and then just trying to craft the message right and trying to 175 00:11:48.059 --> 00:11:52.179 find the right person. The real secret sauce, though, was that they 176 00:11:52.220 --> 00:11:54.940 had a really clear mission and focus for the school and it was easy to 177 00:11:56.059 --> 00:12:00.259 tie that focus to the right kind of person who had a very strong need 178 00:12:00.580 --> 00:12:03.330 for that kind of thing that wasn't well represented elsewhere, right. So that 179 00:12:03.490 --> 00:12:07.490 was the advantage of Bethany and I I knew it coming in that all I 180 00:12:07.570 --> 00:12:09.809 had to do is kind of like dusted off and like figure out how to 181 00:12:09.850 --> 00:12:13.529 get it in front of the right people. Not all colleges have, I 182 00:12:13.570 --> 00:12:16.639 would say, have it that easy. It's not like it was easy. 183 00:12:16.679 --> 00:12:20.360 It took work, but really clearer path. Yeah, but I do think 184 00:12:20.360 --> 00:12:24.879 it's important because I constantly tell people this because when I asked them, well, 185 00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:26.200 tell me what's unique about your school, they say, well, we 186 00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:30.509 have small class sizes, we were faith based, where you have community. 187 00:12:31.029 --> 00:12:33.190 I'm like, okay, that that separates you from, you know, one 188 00:12:33.309 --> 00:12:37.669 segment of higher education, but how does it segment you from every other school 189 00:12:37.669 --> 00:12:39.669 that can say the same thing? So I always try to really encourage people 190 00:12:39.750 --> 00:12:43.580 to really think about what are the distinctives that really we do better than anybody 191 00:12:43.620 --> 00:12:50.019 else, and whether that is preparing missionaries, whether that's it was discipleship, 192 00:12:50.340 --> 00:12:52.980 whether it's just about the way that you know where they're located, the geography. 193 00:12:52.980 --> 00:12:56.340 I mean how many? I'm working with the school right now that you 194 00:12:56.419 --> 00:13:01.610 know, is literally on the waterfront. I mean they're on a big intercoastal 195 00:13:01.009 --> 00:13:05.090 water front and you can get in a boat from their camp buss and go 196 00:13:05.129 --> 00:13:07.490 out to the Atlantic Ocean. How many campuses can say that? And so 197 00:13:09.210 --> 00:13:11.649 we've got it. You've really got a figure out how to grow where your 198 00:13:11.690 --> 00:13:13.720 planted, and I think that's really what you were leading into. Yeah, 199 00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:18.320 we're in Minnesota, so hard to advertise that. I play that down a 200 00:13:18.440 --> 00:13:22.320 lot. I wouldn't say Minnesota, I would say mini Apolis because it felt 201 00:13:22.320 --> 00:13:24.600 a little bit more metropolitan, because people are like, isn't it cold up 202 00:13:24.639 --> 00:13:28.110 there? Like uh well, you know, it's only as cold as the 203 00:13:28.190 --> 00:13:33.190 the kind of jacket you wear it. It's seventy two and worlds right now. 204 00:13:33.309 --> 00:13:35.029 So weather, just bad, bad clothes and we'll help you find this 205 00:13:35.070 --> 00:13:39.029 stuff when you get here. Yeah, yeah, well, tell me a 206 00:13:39.029 --> 00:13:41.779 little bit about I mean just tactically and practically. I mean we try to 207 00:13:41.820 --> 00:13:43.179 be as pragmatic as we can here on the podcast, but I mean tell 208 00:13:43.220 --> 00:13:46.740 me a little bit about I mean, obviously you kind of you're new, 209 00:13:48.379 --> 00:13:50.139 you're going in, you know obviously Ken as a friend of yours, but 210 00:13:50.179 --> 00:13:52.019 at the same time you're going in and saying, Hey, I think we 211 00:13:52.100 --> 00:13:54.419 need to do this, I think we need to spend here, I think 212 00:13:54.419 --> 00:13:58.409 we need to start doing this. I mean there's obviously some risk that was 213 00:13:58.450 --> 00:14:00.450 going to be taken because, I mean, they weren't doing that before. 214 00:14:01.169 --> 00:14:03.850 And how how did you do that? I guess a lot of people might 215 00:14:03.889 --> 00:14:07.009 say, okay, I buy what you're saying, then I can get my 216 00:14:07.090 --> 00:14:09.320 head wrapped around that. But you know what, my boss isn't going to 217 00:14:09.559 --> 00:14:13.360 isn't just going to say, Oh yeah, let's just start jumping into this. 218 00:14:13.399 --> 00:14:16.600 Yep, I would try to find as many unique identifiers as possible and 219 00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:20.799 I would go hunting for them from your students over and over again. Like 220 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:24.230 I would literally just try to go to students that are brand new, so 221 00:14:24.350 --> 00:14:28.710 the the ones that haven't been in your university and haven't been in doctorate and 222 00:14:28.830 --> 00:14:31.029 doctrinated yet by why they show up, because they all start to sound the 223 00:14:31.070 --> 00:14:35.789 same once they've been there a while. So finding people and you could call 224 00:14:35.909 --> 00:14:37.779 them, like the people that are planning on coming or they're really close to 225 00:14:37.820 --> 00:14:39.899 showing up, you could call them, but I find I usually just like 226 00:14:41.059 --> 00:14:43.779 to talk to them on arrival day and on campus preview weekend. Those guys 227 00:14:43.779 --> 00:14:46.620 are gold. And then I asked him like Oh, like, what special? 228 00:14:46.820 --> 00:14:50.299 What's special about this place? What special, like why would you come 229 00:14:50.379 --> 00:14:54.570 here versus somewhere else? And I try to look for the common thread of 230 00:14:54.649 --> 00:14:58.690 what they're talking about. What the answers they give me are literally wow. 231 00:14:58.730 --> 00:15:03.450 I start testing out messages when I has later on in facebook round on landing 232 00:15:03.490 --> 00:15:05.330 page, where I could split test. Okay, out of the five things 233 00:15:05.370 --> 00:15:09.879 that they're saying all the time that I think are actually pretty unique, or 234 00:15:09.919 --> 00:15:13.200 at lace they're telling me are unique, on which one, which one's the 235 00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:15.679 top one, which one should I put as the headline versus the other ones 236 00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:18.039 are supporting bullets or something like that, and I just test and test to 237 00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:22.429 figure out which one is the one that's the most attractive. So every school 238 00:15:22.429 --> 00:15:24.389 has something going for it. I mean you're already a school it's not like 239 00:15:24.470 --> 00:15:28.470 you're starting off as a start up and you have an unvalidated market. You 240 00:15:28.549 --> 00:15:31.870 have a market. You just most schools would do well just to Polish up 241 00:15:31.909 --> 00:15:35.299 what they have. That's already good and, like Bart like you were saying, 242 00:15:35.299 --> 00:15:39.259 sometimes it's the location. Sometimes you're in Colorado, and what more do 243 00:15:39.299 --> 00:15:41.740 you need to say? You know, times you're on an ocean, sometimes 244 00:15:41.779 --> 00:15:46.340 it's the region. Sometimes you're on an old farm in the mountain somewhere that 245 00:15:46.419 --> 00:15:50.009 just has a rustic coolness to it. Sometimes you have a specialty program that's 246 00:15:50.009 --> 00:15:54.529 kind of unique and hitting that as hard as possible. That's that's usually if 247 00:15:54.570 --> 00:15:58.210 if other schools talk to me and a couple of come my way just because 248 00:15:58.210 --> 00:16:02.049 they want to figure out what Bgu did to be successful, and this usually 249 00:16:02.090 --> 00:16:07.399 that I some giving is to help them find that thing tactically to I've learned 250 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:10.480 that there's this term and B to be that is not at least I have 251 00:16:10.639 --> 00:16:12.080 I never heard it in higher red and I never heard it in the nonprofit 252 00:16:12.120 --> 00:16:18.080 world, called marketing ops. Marketing OPS is incredibly important. It's something we 253 00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:22.990 did really, really well at Bgu and that's one of the reasons why we 254 00:16:22.110 --> 00:16:26.029 were able to get so much done on such a small budget. Marketing OPS 255 00:16:26.190 --> 00:16:32.549 is essentially the evolution of marketing automation. Marketing Automation was the term a couple 256 00:16:32.590 --> 00:16:37.299 of years ago, but because marketing automations become so big, because marketing automations 257 00:16:37.419 --> 00:16:41.779 covered more than just marketing, now it's turned into marketing operations. I was 258 00:16:41.940 --> 00:16:48.610 really heavily involved in like the CRM, and actually that the whole crm and 259 00:16:48.690 --> 00:16:51.730 what the call center uses and the admissions team even uses all the way up 260 00:16:51.730 --> 00:16:56.970 until they register as students was heavily influenced from marketing. In fact, I'm 261 00:16:56.009 --> 00:17:00.049 the one who picked the CRM and put it in, actually started building it 262 00:17:00.090 --> 00:17:03.079 in place, and originally was just me building out even the workflowes for all 263 00:17:03.119 --> 00:17:07.799 the call center to like, follow up with students on. And we used, 264 00:17:07.960 --> 00:17:11.359 we use, actually use the small business crm for small schools. You 265 00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:15.519 can get away with it. You don't have use popularly for your crm for 266 00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:19.589 marketing. If you're using something like Populi, let's be honest. Popular's made 267 00:17:19.670 --> 00:17:23.950 for student management, right, it's not made for marketing. So find a 268 00:17:25.230 --> 00:17:29.670 find a point where you can have a small business arm that costs way less 269 00:17:29.750 --> 00:17:33.140 but it's still doable even with the small, tiny budget. And use it 270 00:17:33.220 --> 00:17:37.539 because a small business, RM CRM's and marketing automation platforms are actually highly capable 271 00:17:37.539 --> 00:17:44.329 of doing very row sophisticated marketing campaigns. Like we used infusion soft and I 272 00:17:44.329 --> 00:17:48.930 highly recommended infusion soft is wonderful. It's more it's fairly robust for how much 273 00:17:48.930 --> 00:17:52.329 you pay for it. But even something like active campaign can almost do everything 274 00:17:52.369 --> 00:17:56.450 infusion soft can do an action. It's arguably a little easier to use. 275 00:17:56.450 --> 00:18:00.200 Hub spots fine too, but I find the price tag on up spots substantially 276 00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:03.200 more u should saw. So it kind of if you're at the budget where 277 00:18:03.279 --> 00:18:07.640 like I was at like starting hit Eightyzero a year. Yeah, it. 278 00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:11.079 Infusion soft is just fine. You can always transfer things over later. Yeah, 279 00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:15.509 and we've been we've come across one called lead squared, which also is 280 00:18:15.589 --> 00:18:18.710 is, you know, it's got that marketing ops in it. It's crm 281 00:18:18.789 --> 00:18:19.910 and everything, and I've there's a lot of them out there and I think 282 00:18:19.910 --> 00:18:22.470 it's just a matter of, you know, getting beyond the fact that, 283 00:18:22.549 --> 00:18:26.309 okay, I can't afford slate or I can't afford, you know, some 284 00:18:26.430 --> 00:18:29.940 of these big you know giant ones that you know sales force or other things, 285 00:18:30.019 --> 00:18:33.660 but they are out there, small business crms and marketing ops. I 286 00:18:33.700 --> 00:18:37.380 think is a really good point. Then you kind of talked a little bit 287 00:18:37.380 --> 00:18:38.740 about I want to go back at just for a second on you know, 288 00:18:38.779 --> 00:18:41.250 when you talked about the social proof, you know, being able to have 289 00:18:41.490 --> 00:18:45.170 these students come in on preview day or day one and just kind of give 290 00:18:45.170 --> 00:18:48.410 you a little bit of the raw data that you kind of crafted some of 291 00:18:48.450 --> 00:18:52.490 your messaging. I have to believe that some of that too, that they 292 00:18:52.569 --> 00:18:56.839 were providing to you, was either seeds for content or other elements within the 293 00:18:56.960 --> 00:19:03.400 marketing program I mean, obviously you did more than just do messaging and paper 294 00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:04.759 Click ads, and I know that you know, following you and some of 295 00:19:04.759 --> 00:19:07.519 the conversations that we've had, I know you're a big believer in content marketing. 296 00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:11.589 Talk a little bit about that, because you might even kind of reference 297 00:19:11.710 --> 00:19:15.190 that blog that you and I talked about at once that you know that you've 298 00:19:15.309 --> 00:19:18.029 been building out with. I think it's a different organization, but the idea 299 00:19:18.109 --> 00:19:22.069 that you're ranking higher on that blog than maybe some ones that people would expect. 300 00:19:22.430 --> 00:19:26.700 So that was something that came in later. I would say the tripling 301 00:19:26.819 --> 00:19:30.019 of the school mainly, like eighty percent of that really came off the back 302 00:19:30.059 --> 00:19:36.660 of like add words, facebook ads and just a well crafted like conversion right, 303 00:19:37.140 --> 00:19:41.529 like Very Russell, Br Branson, Branson Brunson kind of style funnel, 304 00:19:41.369 --> 00:19:44.970 probably a little nicer than as as far as like how it looks though, 305 00:19:45.009 --> 00:19:48.130 direct, direct marketing kind of stuff, but like with a little bit more 306 00:19:48.250 --> 00:19:52.279 brand and visual emphasis, because we're talking about young people. So I don't 307 00:19:52.279 --> 00:19:56.240 want to look to direct marketing. So that was most of it. But 308 00:19:56.319 --> 00:20:00.200 the whole time I knew that, like you don't want to depend only on 309 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:03.960 like PPC to drive all your growth, right, because we were like search 310 00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:11.269 facebook ads were ferrals. I'm like, if we lose facebook ads were in 311 00:20:11.430 --> 00:20:15.549 trouble and facebook's you know, facebook's young and kind of reckless in my opinion, 312 00:20:15.589 --> 00:20:18.390 and honestly, like because of the stuff apples done. Now that's like 313 00:20:18.470 --> 00:20:21.150 kind of dying out. Now, like facebook ads are not as nearly as 314 00:20:21.190 --> 00:20:22.700 effective as they used to be. So a couple of years ago we started 315 00:20:22.740 --> 00:20:27.220 putting an initiative and putting an emphasis on search engine optimization and I believe blogging 316 00:20:27.259 --> 00:20:30.220 can be a lot more than search engine optimization. It could be for social 317 00:20:30.380 --> 00:20:34.220 it could be to answer frequently ask questions right. A good blog post about 318 00:20:34.220 --> 00:20:37.849 it. You know, have good testimonials for different questions, for different stages 319 00:20:37.890 --> 00:20:41.369 of the fun funnel, different types of people. Blog post serve a lot 320 00:20:41.369 --> 00:20:45.250 of purpose and we did a lot of those, a lot of the people's 321 00:20:45.250 --> 00:20:48.690 favorite things. We would craft hold pages around and hold blog posts around if 322 00:20:48.730 --> 00:20:53.480 they were coming here because of our tuition paid program. You right at Bgu 323 00:20:53.960 --> 00:20:57.599 you don't pay tuition. It's very unique. Actually. That was I had 324 00:20:57.640 --> 00:21:00.720 to bury that a little bit in the funnel because it was a little bit 325 00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:02.759 too good to be true for some people. So I had to let them 326 00:21:02.759 --> 00:21:04.950 discover that on their own because if I then add they'd be like I don't 327 00:21:04.950 --> 00:21:10.470 believe you. It's like no, it's true, you still pay room and 328 00:21:10.549 --> 00:21:12.309 board, but no, you don't pay tuition. So we did all that. 329 00:21:12.549 --> 00:21:15.789 But yes, the SEO did start to pick up and I actually learned 330 00:21:17.589 --> 00:21:21.460 Seo from mainly, I can't say one person, it's really two people, 331 00:21:21.900 --> 00:21:25.900 but one, one company, one youtube channel, when I discovered their model 332 00:21:26.099 --> 00:21:30.380 on how to do search engine optimization, which was kind of antibacklink and really 333 00:21:30.460 --> 00:21:34.369 just produce the best content for the this search. Search queries, like our 334 00:21:34.569 --> 00:21:38.170 SEO game took off and we got so good at it so fast that we 335 00:21:38.329 --> 00:21:44.210 did. We were pump publishing a ton of different blog posts on Bethany Guedu 336 00:21:44.529 --> 00:21:47.089 to rank for all the missions key words. But I realized with the team 337 00:21:47.130 --> 00:21:51.519 of students, I could write blogs at a rate of ten to twenty articles 338 00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:55.559 a week that were rankworthy. And because of that we're like, well, 339 00:21:55.599 --> 00:21:59.119 let's just start a whole new site, still a Bgu site, but it's 340 00:21:59.119 --> 00:22:03.630 called just disciplecom and we started like hammering every Christian topic we could possibly find 341 00:22:03.670 --> 00:22:08.829 or think of. Now that site probably reached two hundred and fifty thousand page 342 00:22:08.829 --> 00:22:12.349 views this last month, or maybe two hundred and sixty. But and now 343 00:22:12.470 --> 00:22:15.630 I'm like having a vision to like, Oh, what does it take to 344 00:22:15.670 --> 00:22:18.619 get a million, because that's where we're shooting for now. We had, 345 00:22:18.819 --> 00:22:21.579 we probably we're close to land and a grant so that I can hire a 346 00:22:21.700 --> 00:22:25.420 person do nothing but focus on that website to take it there. That's kind 347 00:22:25.420 --> 00:22:29.740 of what we've used there and own to mention the person where I learned Seo 348 00:22:29.819 --> 00:22:33.049 from and I would recommend anybody who like, if you want to learn Seo 349 00:22:33.130 --> 00:22:37.170 Yourself. It's they seem like to just dudes from Idaho figured out that you 350 00:22:37.250 --> 00:22:41.569 can do it without doing any backlinks or any offsite optimization, and they're called 351 00:22:41.609 --> 00:22:45.960 income school. It's a youtube channel. They do have a like a fairly 352 00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:49.240 inexpensive program that they really just teach bloggers how to rank and how to make 353 00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:53.680 an income via blogging right and it's probably the most reliable system I've seen. 354 00:22:53.720 --> 00:22:57.630 I actually test it on a personal blog and now my personal blog even gets 355 00:22:57.950 --> 00:23:00.670 k visits a month on the few blood post that I've written there. But 356 00:23:00.789 --> 00:23:04.630 if you actually get a writer on it and start using their methodology, I 357 00:23:04.789 --> 00:23:07.950 even use it as sweet fish. I even use it for customers now of 358 00:23:08.150 --> 00:23:11.309 sweet fish media who want to figure out how to craft good blogs that are 359 00:23:11.309 --> 00:23:15.779 rank worthy out of their podcasts. It's of the utilizing their methodology. They 360 00:23:15.819 --> 00:23:18.779 have a couple of different things that are unique to them compared to like most 361 00:23:18.859 --> 00:23:22.299 the Seo people out there, and I find that it's actually just approachable and 362 00:23:22.380 --> 00:23:27.930 easier to implement than all the other seo crazy stuff that's out there. So 363 00:23:29.650 --> 00:23:33.049 that's been a big deal to try to offset the traffic that we were depending 364 00:23:33.130 --> 00:23:36.930 on from facebook ads. We're trying to versify that a bit and we have 365 00:23:36.970 --> 00:23:41.049 a couple different avenues we're doing that on, like influencer marketing partnerships, but 366 00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:45.359 building up justiceciple as a massive site that we could then, you know, 367 00:23:45.559 --> 00:23:48.519 nurture the relationship down to the ones who want to go on mission trips to 368 00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:52.240 feed into Bgu. That's great. What was the name of that Youtube Channel 369 00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:56.349 again? Income School? Okay, income school, thank you, and their 370 00:23:56.390 --> 00:24:00.990 websites income schoolcom. It's antastic resource. Great. Well, I think that 371 00:24:02.789 --> 00:24:06.430 obviously this has been a really great conversation. One question I had and I 372 00:24:06.869 --> 00:24:08.470 know the answer, but I wanted to kind of make sure that everybody else 373 00:24:08.509 --> 00:24:11.819 understands. You mean, you're you're a voracious reader and I'm guessing that you 374 00:24:11.900 --> 00:24:17.019 do the same thing not only with books but also online and with youtube videos 375 00:24:17.059 --> 00:24:19.940 and just you're consuming content all the time. Tell us a little bit about 376 00:24:19.980 --> 00:24:22.700 that, I mean how how does that come about, and tell me about 377 00:24:22.700 --> 00:24:26.490 your kind of your methodology on that, because I mean obviously a lot of 378 00:24:26.609 --> 00:24:32.490 what you're doing you have learned on the job. To say per se from 379 00:24:32.650 --> 00:24:37.450 all these experts. Actually, my journey didn't start in college. I actually 380 00:24:37.049 --> 00:24:41.920 went right into a Christian internship and then just worked and then later went to 381 00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:45.160 community college and dropped out because I just I hated school, which is funny 382 00:24:45.160 --> 00:24:48.599 to say as a higher atte marketer, but I hate knowledge. I later 383 00:24:48.759 --> 00:24:52.200 went back to school, but if I would have gone to school right out 384 00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:53.309 of high school, I would have been an artist and if I would have 385 00:24:53.309 --> 00:24:56.549 gone to school two years after gone to school, I would have been a 386 00:24:56.549 --> 00:24:59.990 graphic designer. So I'm glad actually waited and worked and found the thing that 387 00:25:00.069 --> 00:25:02.829 I really loved, and I really love marketing. I don't know what it 388 00:25:02.990 --> 00:25:06.670 is. It's just so flexible. There's so many applications for it, it's 389 00:25:06.670 --> 00:25:11.740 so helpful, it's so needed. It's also very profitable, but it's creative, 390 00:25:11.779 --> 00:25:14.299 it's fun, it's different from day. Today I get to work with 391 00:25:14.339 --> 00:25:17.700 people. I get to work with people on Linkedin all the time and have 392 00:25:17.859 --> 00:25:19.660 podcasts like this with you guys here. It's so much fun. I can't 393 00:25:19.660 --> 00:25:22.170 believe I get paid to do this every day. You know. So I 394 00:25:22.529 --> 00:25:26.049 love, I fell in love with marketing and I found that because I hadn't 395 00:25:26.049 --> 00:25:30.170 gone to school. I had to learn how to learn marketing and it started 396 00:25:30.210 --> 00:25:34.210 with me just asking for book recommendations, reading it and testing out stuff, 397 00:25:34.210 --> 00:25:37.240 and that became kind of the model. I would read a book in the 398 00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:40.359 evening or early mornings and then go test it out in the day job, 399 00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:42.920 as I was moving into marketing slowly in my career. Kind of started as 400 00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:48.319 the designer and were worked into web design and then digital marketing and then just 401 00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:53.109 full on marketing, and I found that I would just get really excited about 402 00:25:53.109 --> 00:25:56.549 one topic and then hammered as much as possible and in a short season wake 403 00:25:56.589 --> 00:26:00.390 up really early for a couple of months in a row, read and then 404 00:26:00.509 --> 00:26:03.829 experiment during the day. And it was different topics at different times. It 405 00:26:03.950 --> 00:26:07.980 started with like web building websites and then it went to add words and then 406 00:26:07.019 --> 00:26:11.380 it went to a conversion rate optimization. I started playing around with free tools 407 00:26:11.460 --> 00:26:17.019 there and some cheap paid tools. I have a background and just working at 408 00:26:17.059 --> 00:26:21.849 nonprofits and startups, which are like always underfunded, so I never had a 409 00:26:21.890 --> 00:26:26.089 lot of money to go and learn take massive classes or more than maybe maybe, 410 00:26:26.089 --> 00:26:30.289 if I was lucky, a thousand dollar conference, and that's including like 411 00:26:30.450 --> 00:26:34.759 travel and stuff. So I never really had a lot of like expensive resources, 412 00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:37.000 but just through books, in the amount of stuff that's online, you 413 00:26:37.039 --> 00:26:41.279 can learn just about anything. I was also benefit. I would suck dry 414 00:26:41.319 --> 00:26:44.519 any meant any boss I had that knew more than I did, like I 415 00:26:44.559 --> 00:26:47.509 would also like get everything I can, like tell me everything you know, 416 00:26:48.390 --> 00:26:52.190 like if they had a specialty in pr or media or anything. I'd also 417 00:26:52.230 --> 00:26:56.390 try to learn everything I could from each person I work for worked with. 418 00:26:56.069 --> 00:26:59.670 So it was just a very voracious learner, even though I wasn't really a 419 00:26:59.750 --> 00:27:02.779 fan of higher ad I did eventually go back to college and then earn my 420 00:27:02.980 --> 00:27:06.380 BS and marketing in my Mba, but that's great. It was only after 421 00:27:06.460 --> 00:27:08.819 learning the subjects and then I went back to school or took the test. 422 00:27:10.859 --> 00:27:15.220 Very good. This has been great, Dan. We into each episode and 423 00:27:15.339 --> 00:27:18.369 you've given us so much, but if there was one piece of advice you 424 00:27:18.450 --> 00:27:25.329 would give, maybe a size school similar to Begu that they could implement right 425 00:27:25.410 --> 00:27:29.569 away that you feel that could be very impactful. What advice would that be? 426 00:27:30.119 --> 00:27:32.279 I think they think that made us successful, as I was able to 427 00:27:32.319 --> 00:27:37.200 do a lot with a little because I didn't outsource much you and if you 428 00:27:37.319 --> 00:27:40.319 have to be really strategic, if you outsource a little bit, like you 429 00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:44.200 probably only have enough money to outsource one thing, outsource the thing that you're 430 00:27:44.240 --> 00:27:48.109 least competent in, and then everything else you kind of have to like learn 431 00:27:48.150 --> 00:27:52.430 or become competent in. So outsource your your thing that's the hardest for you. 432 00:27:52.829 --> 00:27:56.349 That's good, and then the next probably I'd whatever is like the best, 433 00:27:56.630 --> 00:28:00.859 like you're already leaning towards, like double down on that and learn everything 434 00:28:00.859 --> 00:28:03.500 you can about that and then start a stair step at learn one thing at 435 00:28:03.539 --> 00:28:06.859 a time. Like you might not have enough time to do SEO, but 436 00:28:06.980 --> 00:28:12.210 do you already have a capability of testing up messaging? And I would get 437 00:28:12.210 --> 00:28:15.690 if you're want to write more and your kind of already a word smithing kind 438 00:28:15.730 --> 00:28:21.009 of person, then you should explore conversion rate optimization. Is probably the single 439 00:28:21.009 --> 00:28:23.049 biggest thing you can start doing with your website to increase your leads, you 440 00:28:23.130 --> 00:28:26.809 know, and that's where you split test your even your home page to see 441 00:28:26.849 --> 00:28:30.119 which one gets a bigger a better bounce rate, having running all your ads 442 00:28:30.200 --> 00:28:34.400 and things to a single landing page, so you can actually test what you 443 00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:37.799 should be saying, because you can find out and learn faster there what's actually 444 00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:41.269 working, then random pages on your website, if you drive everybody to a 445 00:28:41.309 --> 00:28:45.349 singular page with the only thing they can do is request the brochure, and 446 00:28:45.430 --> 00:28:48.869 I do recommend specifically the call to Action for any higher at institution should be 447 00:28:48.910 --> 00:28:52.990 the request the brochure. I've tried out a bunch of different things. I 448 00:28:52.029 --> 00:28:55.269 don't know what it is. People like to get the brochure in the mail 449 00:28:55.349 --> 00:28:59.619 and that's just another touch point that you can like follow up with them with, 450 00:28:59.740 --> 00:29:03.819 but I always ask for email, phone number, brochure for name, 451 00:29:03.819 --> 00:29:07.019 last name, Undergrad Grad and what their high school graduation did is. I've 452 00:29:07.059 --> 00:29:10.410 worked with a lot of different fields, though. That is the money right 453 00:29:10.450 --> 00:29:12.250 there was for us and that, if I started at a new school today, 454 00:29:12.250 --> 00:29:15.490 those are the exact things I would ask again, because with that you 455 00:29:15.529 --> 00:29:18.210 kind of have enough dated to get going and then you can figure out the 456 00:29:18.289 --> 00:29:22.529 rest later on. I would also stop spending money at trade shows. I 457 00:29:22.609 --> 00:29:26.279 don't know, I've not seen one college it's like, yeah, we're killing 458 00:29:26.319 --> 00:29:27.440 it. Maybe. Okay, I take it back. I can think of 459 00:29:27.559 --> 00:29:32.039 one college that is killed it with the trade show and it's only because they're 460 00:29:32.119 --> 00:29:34.839 big. They have a big budget and they dominate the trade show, not 461 00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:37.910 only with the biggest booth, but they have all their professors out in the 462 00:29:38.029 --> 00:29:42.950 like in the sessions. And that's midwestern seminary in Kansas City. I know 463 00:29:44.029 --> 00:29:45.470 they're killing it through that so they can, they can afford to do a 464 00:29:45.549 --> 00:29:49.829 whole takeover of a conference and get all their people out there so they can 465 00:29:49.869 --> 00:29:52.819 influence the pastors who are the ones who recommend where to go for seminary. 466 00:29:53.420 --> 00:29:57.779 But in in formost a beach schools. I feel like you really have to 467 00:29:57.819 --> 00:30:02.140 learn how to move on to digital. I don't I don't understand if you 468 00:30:02.220 --> 00:30:04.339 just do a cost analysis on trade shows and just show like how much you 469 00:30:04.420 --> 00:30:07.250 spent on it versus how many leads you get. Then you have your cost 470 00:30:07.289 --> 00:30:14.490 per acquisition for lead and it's usually outrageous, like just outrageous. Even if 471 00:30:14.529 --> 00:30:18.130 you're bad at facebook adds that it's even if with this is not great as 472 00:30:18.210 --> 00:30:21.410 facebook ads currently is, you're probably going to get a better conversion rate than 473 00:30:21.440 --> 00:30:25.079 that, even in the beginning. You might also try pinterest. Interest is 474 00:30:25.079 --> 00:30:30.000 actually not bad. I think you just led into the next topic for when 475 00:30:30.039 --> 00:30:33.279 we have you back on the podcast. Thank you so much, Dan, 476 00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:37.269 and I think you're an excellent follow. How do you prefer people to either 477 00:30:37.349 --> 00:30:41.349 contact you or work? Can they follow you linkedin all day every day. 478 00:30:41.430 --> 00:30:45.710 I'm very active on Linkedin, which is how the three of US started really 479 00:30:45.190 --> 00:30:52.140 talking right. So go to linkedincom iron digital marketing. Dan, you'll find 480 00:30:52.140 --> 00:30:55.339 me there. Shoot me a connector request. I'd love to connect in your 481 00:30:55.380 --> 00:30:56.779 Hashtag, Danchez, I think, is another one that they could follow. 482 00:30:56.819 --> 00:31:00.579 Dan Chez. Yep, you can follow the Hashtag. I'm like, I'm 483 00:31:00.660 --> 00:31:06.130 working on DANCHEZCOM. It's coming soon. It's very good. Love it, 484 00:31:06.490 --> 00:31:10.289 love it. Thanks again, Dan. Are Any partying words from you? 485 00:31:10.930 --> 00:31:12.730 Yeah, I just think that I think a lot of what Dan has talked 486 00:31:12.730 --> 00:31:17.529 about has been so applicable to just about any size school. I mean, 487 00:31:17.569 --> 00:31:21.480 I think a lot of what he said was specific to Association of Biblical Higher 488 00:31:21.480 --> 00:31:25.359 Education, the Abah that we've been referring to, those small Bible schools and 489 00:31:25.400 --> 00:31:29.279 seminaries, but I think a lot of what Dan said is also applicable to, 490 00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:33.509 you know, a marketing department of the major university, Public University. 491 00:31:33.549 --> 00:31:37.670 I think there's a lot of things that figure out what's going on. Test, 492 00:31:37.950 --> 00:31:41.630 test, test, understand your particular market and I also understand what's distinctive 493 00:31:41.670 --> 00:31:45.349 about you that's going to move the needle, and I think all those things 494 00:31:45.390 --> 00:31:48.819 are really applicable to just about anyone, and so I would just just really 495 00:31:48.859 --> 00:31:51.099 kind of encourage you to take a look at that as well as be just 496 00:31:51.220 --> 00:31:55.579 that lifelong learner. I think that we all know that marketing moves at the 497 00:31:55.619 --> 00:31:59.299 speed of light right now, and so the more you can learn, the 498 00:31:59.380 --> 00:32:00.690 more you can pay attention and the more that you can kind of lean in 499 00:32:00.809 --> 00:32:04.289 and kind of see what other people are talking about. I mean, that's 500 00:32:04.289 --> 00:32:07.970 one of the reasons I really like to follow Dan on Linkedin with his with 501 00:32:07.130 --> 00:32:10.089 his comments that he's so generous to do on a daily basis, is that 502 00:32:10.730 --> 00:32:14.849 I'm seeing things that maybe I didn't know about. I'm learning things that I 503 00:32:14.890 --> 00:32:19.240 didn't understand, and we've got to do that together these days, because the 504 00:32:19.319 --> 00:32:23.160 idea of being able to either go take a class on something is those days 505 00:32:23.200 --> 00:32:25.519 are gone, and so we've got to kind of take control of our own 506 00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:29.880 learning and figure out things and lean into that. So those are just a 507 00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:31.990 couple of thoughts. I have tried. Thank you, Bart. Well said, 508 00:32:32.190 --> 00:32:37.829 this was an excellent conversation. This podcast, the High Ed Marketer, 509 00:32:37.190 --> 00:32:43.990 is sponsored by Taylor solutions and education, marketing and branding agency and by think 510 00:32:44.029 --> 00:32:47.339 patent. It a marketing, execution, printing and mailing provider of high it 511 00:32:47.460 --> 00:32:52.940 solutions. On behalf of Bart and myself, thank you for joining us. 512 00:32:54.460 --> 00:32:59.329 You've been listening to the Higher Ed Marketer. To ensure that you never miss 513 00:32:59.369 --> 00:33:04.009 an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you're 514 00:33:04.049 --> 00:33:07.490 listening with apple PODCASTS, we'd love for you to leave a quick rating of 515 00:33:07.569 --> 00:33:10.410 the show. Simply tap the number of stars you think the podcast deserves. 516 00:33:10.450 --> 00:33:12.960 Until next time.