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March 22, 2022

Ending Departmental Silos & Focusing on Mission Fit

Ending Departmental Silos & Focusing on Mission Fit

Our guest, Philip Dearborn, has spent over 25 years in biblical higher education serving in a wide array of roles—from student recruiter and registrar to provost and VP of student affairs.

Today, he is the President of the Association for Biblical Higher Education. It’s his extensive experience at both the collegiate and accreditation levels that makes him the perfect person to talk with about leadership and marketing strategies in higher education.

In this episode, we discuss:

- Why mission-fit student recruitment should be the highest priority

- The need to break down silos and work across departments

- Why it’s important to understand your ROI by program

- The prediction that today’s students will likely have 10 different careers in their lifetime

Mentioned during the podcast:

- Ep. 43: Solving For the Right Things in the Right Way: IU Strategies to Retain Students w/ Eleanor Berman

To hear more interviews like this one, subscribe to Higher Ed Marketer on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your preferred podcast platform.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Higher Ed Marketer in your favorite podcast player.

The Higher Ed Marketer podcast is sponsored by Caylor Solutions, an Education Marketing and Branding Agency, and by Think Patented, a Marketing Execution, Printing and Mailing provider of Higher Ed solutions.

    

 

Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.919 --> 00:00:07.240 You are listening to the Higher Ed Marketer, a podcast geared towards marketing professionals 2 00:00:07.280 --> 00:00:11.960 in higher education. This show will tackle all sorts of questions related to student 3 00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:16.800 recruitment, don'tor relations, marketing trends, new technologies and so much more. 4 00:00:17.079 --> 00:00:21.000 If you are looking for conversation centered around where the industry is going, this 5 00:00:21.039 --> 00:00:28.480 podcast is for you. Let's get into the show. Welcome to the High 6 00:00:28.640 --> 00:00:33.159 Ed Marketer podcast. I'm troy singer in here with my cohost Bart Taylor, 7 00:00:33.240 --> 00:00:38.439 where each week we interview higher Ed marketers that we admire for the betterment of 8 00:00:38.479 --> 00:00:42.560 the community. Today we get to talk to Philip Dearborn, who is the 9 00:00:42.600 --> 00:00:48.719 president of the Association of Biblical Higher Education. He comes to us with twenty 10 00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:54.600 five plus years worth of knowledge. He comes to us with wonderful stories and 11 00:00:54.679 --> 00:00:59.679 I can't wait for everyone to listen to the practical advice daddy and ministers. 12 00:00:59.759 --> 00:01:03.159 Yeah, try he's it's such a great episode. There were so many different 13 00:01:03.159 --> 00:01:07.560 topics that we talked about, everything from recruiting mission fit students and what that 14 00:01:07.599 --> 00:01:10.959 means in a broader sense, as well as to just the idea of, 15 00:01:11.040 --> 00:01:15.239 you know, silos on campus and ways to kind of work around those. 16 00:01:15.400 --> 00:01:17.840 One of the things that I really want to kind of encourage everybody. I 17 00:01:17.840 --> 00:01:19.159 mean as if you're just starting to join us and you're like, okay, 18 00:01:19.159 --> 00:01:22.799 I'm going to stick around for this episode, because that's the way I am 19 00:01:22.840 --> 00:01:25.719 with podcast sometimes. I want to really encourage you that you know, even 20 00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:30.760 though you might not your school might not be a Bible College, you might 21 00:01:30.799 --> 00:01:34.079 not be a faith based school and there might be different feelings that you have 22 00:01:34.120 --> 00:01:37.280 about that, a lot of what we talked about is applicable to just about 23 00:01:37.280 --> 00:01:40.560 every school, whether you're a big school, small school or in between. 24 00:01:40.560 --> 00:01:42.799 I really encourage you to kind of just listen and hear everything that that we 25 00:01:42.840 --> 00:01:47.599 talked about because, even though we talk about mission fit students, every school 26 00:01:47.640 --> 00:01:49.480 and as you'll see as you're here in the episode, every school has a 27 00:01:49.519 --> 00:01:53.680 mission and you need to find the right types of students to fulfill that mission 28 00:01:53.719 --> 00:01:57.519 of your institution. He does an excellent job of conveying the successful practices and 29 00:01:57.599 --> 00:02:01.359 Higher Ed Marketing and leadership. Yeah, you can. Without further ADO, 30 00:02:01.519 --> 00:02:08.400 here's Philip Dearborn. We are speaking with Philip Dearborn here on the Higher Ed 31 00:02:08.479 --> 00:02:13.319 Marketer podcast. Thank you so much for being a guest today with this Philip, 32 00:02:13.400 --> 00:02:16.919 it's a pleasure to be here troy. Because of your experience both on 33 00:02:16.960 --> 00:02:23.360 the college level and then now your current position with an accreditation on associate level, 34 00:02:23.400 --> 00:02:30.960 we would like to talk to you about successful leadership and also marketing within 35 00:02:30.240 --> 00:02:34.439 higher education and before we get into it, if you could give us a 36 00:02:34.479 --> 00:02:38.360 little bit about your background and also what you currently do. Sure, I 37 00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:44.360 spent prior to joining the Association for a Biblical Higher Education, Abh G. 38 00:02:45.039 --> 00:02:50.199 before joining them as president, I served just over twenty five years in Biblical 39 00:02:50.319 --> 00:02:54.879 Higher Education and in that time pretty much hit almost every single department that you 40 00:02:55.080 --> 00:03:00.199 possibly could on a campus. I started recruiting students, move from there into 41 00:03:00.199 --> 00:03:05.800 the registrar's office, then went from there to an associate vice president and a 42 00:03:05.879 --> 00:03:09.199 vice president, then provost and even spend a little bit of time as an 43 00:03:09.199 --> 00:03:15.879 interim vice president of Student Affairs. So I've I've been around the campus and 44 00:03:16.159 --> 00:03:20.800 kind of get a sense of everything that happens on a campus. Thank you. 45 00:03:21.080 --> 00:03:25.800 In previous conversations, I know that one of the one of your passions 46 00:03:27.000 --> 00:03:31.560 is making sure schools know that the height of their success is going to come 47 00:03:31.599 --> 00:03:37.719 from the pursuit of mission fit students and would love to go into that conversation 48 00:03:37.960 --> 00:03:40.879 with you and if you could just share some of your perspective and why you 49 00:03:40.960 --> 00:03:45.759 feel so passionately about that. Sure, sure, and a lot of it. 50 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:51.159 I think that that passion has driven to where I am now as president 51 00:03:51.199 --> 00:03:53.280 of Abh G, where I kind of get a little bit more of a 52 00:03:53.319 --> 00:03:59.159 global picture at Biblical higher education and Biblical High Education. We have a hundred 53 00:03:59.159 --> 00:04:03.599 and fifty five institutions across North America. Eighteen of those earned Canada, and 54 00:04:03.759 --> 00:04:09.159 those institutions are enrolling about sixty three thou students, which is really cool to 55 00:04:09.159 --> 00:04:15.199 see. I mean that's sixty threezero students who are laser focused on fulfilling God's 56 00:04:15.240 --> 00:04:23.720 call in their lives and I think that's where mission fit why I'm so passionate 57 00:04:23.800 --> 00:04:29.920 about that, because biblical higher education is laser focused on Biblical and theological education 58 00:04:30.199 --> 00:04:36.240 and I think it's important that throughout the entire institution, from beginning to end, 59 00:04:36.360 --> 00:04:44.480 the entire student experience, that institutions are recruiting truly mission fit institutions who 60 00:04:44.560 --> 00:04:51.360 are looking to fulfill God's call on their life and an institutions got identify those 61 00:04:51.360 --> 00:04:56.360 students who fit with that institution. I think that's a I think that's a 62 00:04:56.399 --> 00:04:59.199 great point, Philip, and I know that we've talked about this before and 63 00:04:59.319 --> 00:05:01.600 I've spoken with a a lot of my clients and full transparency, I do 64 00:05:01.759 --> 00:05:05.000 work with Abh g and several of their institutions. But one of the things 65 00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:08.360 I want to kind of for you know, I don't want to turn this 66 00:05:08.399 --> 00:05:11.319 into I don't want somebody tuning out right now because it's like, okay, 67 00:05:11.319 --> 00:05:14.079 well, I'm not a Bible College, so I don't this doesn't apply to 68 00:05:14.079 --> 00:05:16.680 me. Don't do that, because really what we're talking about here is I 69 00:05:16.680 --> 00:05:21.879 believe that every college in in in the world can benefit from understanding what true 70 00:05:21.879 --> 00:05:26.639 mission fit means. I mean, we're talking about the context here of Biblical 71 00:05:26.720 --> 00:05:30.319 Higher Education and I've seen it play out a little bit. But keep in 72 00:05:30.360 --> 00:05:33.839 mind that we're talking about if you're an art school, you have mission fit 73 00:05:33.920 --> 00:05:39.199 students because you're you're trying to find students who need an art eduction education. 74 00:05:39.240 --> 00:05:43.240 If you're an engineering school, same thing. So this applies broadly. So 75 00:05:43.399 --> 00:05:46.480 don't tune us out because we're focused in on a specific you know element of 76 00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:50.199 that, but I think it's it's really critical fill up because I've worked with 77 00:05:50.240 --> 00:05:56.000 a lot of schools and even larger faith based schools that that maybe our more 78 00:05:56.079 --> 00:06:00.680 liberal arts in their approach as opposed to specifically Biblical and theological training. I've 79 00:06:00.720 --> 00:06:03.959 seen that, even when they are trying to focus on mission fit, and 80 00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:06.319 you know I've heard it before, it's like, you know, hey, 81 00:06:06.360 --> 00:06:11.319 we're really we're really trying to, you know, really increase the enrollment pool. 82 00:06:11.399 --> 00:06:13.879 Maybe we've leaned into athletics to do that a little bit. You know, 83 00:06:14.120 --> 00:06:17.040 we're really trying to bring in as many student athletes to fill the rosters. 84 00:06:17.079 --> 00:06:20.079 But guess what, when they get there first week, they spend a 85 00:06:20.160 --> 00:06:23.160 day in chapel and they're like, Oh, you guys are kind of serious 86 00:06:23.160 --> 00:06:25.959 about this Jesus thing. What's that going on? Yeah, so, so 87 00:06:26.040 --> 00:06:30.879 when you have that friction between, you know, mission fit students versus a 88 00:06:30.920 --> 00:06:33.560 student that's just going to fill a fill a roster or fill a spot in 89 00:06:33.600 --> 00:06:38.279 a seat on campus, that can really be detrimental to this institution. Yeah, 90 00:06:39.399 --> 00:06:42.920 you set it very well, Barret, and you know I look at 91 00:06:42.839 --> 00:06:48.759 at as institutional alignment. Probably no other sector, perhaps the healthcare industry would 92 00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:53.439 be up there. But but when you talk about mission within higher education, 93 00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:59.839 I the accreditation market, everything. Your mission is the promise that you make 94 00:06:59.879 --> 00:07:03.959 to the students. That's what you're going to fulfill if they engage with you 95 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:09.399 and study your institution. You know, pretty much on any college campus you 96 00:07:09.399 --> 00:07:12.399 can ask a faculty member, you can ask a staff member, you can 97 00:07:12.439 --> 00:07:17.519 ask the present what's the mission of the institution? And so it's starts there 98 00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:25.120 and it drives everything that the institution does. So if you have misalignment right 99 00:07:25.160 --> 00:07:28.439 from the beginning, I mean look at student life cycle, even from, 100 00:07:28.480 --> 00:07:32.720 you know, the prospecting side of it all the way through, you need 101 00:07:32.720 --> 00:07:39.720 institutional alignment to make sure that you're not compromising on that mission. You know, 102 00:07:40.160 --> 00:07:43.120 it's a it's it's an extreme case to say, you know, if 103 00:07:43.160 --> 00:07:47.199 you're an engineering school and your your mission is laser focused on engineering and you 104 00:07:47.240 --> 00:07:50.759 make the decision, okay, well, we're going to enroll these art students 105 00:07:50.800 --> 00:07:56.560 because we need to fill more seats, there's going to be an inconsistency there 106 00:07:56.720 --> 00:08:00.800 and those students aren't going to have a good experience on your campus. And 107 00:08:00.879 --> 00:08:03.519 in fact, what they do is actually take away from the experience of those 108 00:08:03.519 --> 00:08:09.079 who are mission fit students. But the reality is, especially in the market 109 00:08:09.160 --> 00:08:16.279 of higher education, there's a whole lot of pressure on enrollment officers and marketing 110 00:08:16.279 --> 00:08:26.519 departments to fill seats and sometimes that pressure becomes so overwhelming that you start to 111 00:08:26.600 --> 00:08:31.000 cheat and you start to compromise on that mission. And I don't think it 112 00:08:31.079 --> 00:08:37.279 happens all at once either. I think it's this iterative approach that well, 113 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:41.279 if we just if we just recruit these students and well, if we just 114 00:08:41.320 --> 00:08:43.600 do this, if we just do this, if we just do this, 115 00:08:43.639 --> 00:08:46.639 and before you know it, over time, what you've done you water down 116 00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:52.720 your mission and you've moved away from really what your main target ought to be. 117 00:08:52.799 --> 00:08:54.679 Yeah, I think that's so critical and and I know that in our 118 00:08:54.720 --> 00:08:58.440 pre conversation a little bit we talked about just the whole idea of yet when 119 00:08:58.480 --> 00:09:01.879 we start to kind of there's two things. I think. One is we've 120 00:09:01.879 --> 00:09:07.600 really got to understand from a institutional standpoint, and many times marketers are the 121 00:09:07.639 --> 00:09:11.120 ones that can kind of help help drive this is what who are we really? 122 00:09:11.720 --> 00:09:15.399 What do we all about? What is that mission? Because, I 123 00:09:15.399 --> 00:09:16.360 mean, we can kind of all know it and when we see it, 124 00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:20.519 but how do we articulate it and then how do we just kind of continue 125 00:09:20.559 --> 00:09:24.399 to, you know, that drum beat, not only externally for the prospective 126 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:28.720 students that we have, but also internally, for for our internal audiences? 127 00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:31.519 I think that's one thing, but I think the second thing also is the 128 00:09:31.559 --> 00:09:37.159 idea of really making sure that that alignment that we have internally, that we 129 00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:39.120 really kind of play in our own lanes so that we can make sure that 130 00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:45.720 those those items that we're doing are are working for the betterment of the entire 131 00:09:45.759 --> 00:09:48.480 institution and how we represent the brand. What do you think about that, 132 00:09:48.519 --> 00:09:54.679 Philip? Yeah. Yeah, so it's a fascinating conversation when you look at 133 00:09:54.679 --> 00:09:58.000 when you look at mission, when you look at efforts that college is make 134 00:09:58.120 --> 00:10:01.039 to enroll new students, and and I want to be clear that you know 135 00:10:01.799 --> 00:10:07.440 athletics as a front porch, the worship arts or theater arts or production arts 136 00:10:07.519 --> 00:10:11.159 or another front porch. Front Porch is what the public sees, and so 137 00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:16.000 a lot of times institutions use their front porch to recruit students in and there's 138 00:10:16.039 --> 00:10:20.639 nothing wrong with that. I think. I think you can have a very 139 00:10:20.679 --> 00:10:28.600 strong athletic recruitment effort at a Bible College or even at an engineering school. 140 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:33.919 So there are definitely front porch elements that you want to track students in. 141 00:10:35.639 --> 00:10:39.879 You just have to make sure that they are mission fit from the start that 142 00:10:39.960 --> 00:10:43.159 by having that, then suddenly doesn't say, okay, well, we're going 143 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:46.320 to have this, we're going to grow our Bible college enrollment through an athletics 144 00:10:46.320 --> 00:10:52.080 programs. Well, you're only going to be a division three, maybe division 145 00:10:52.080 --> 00:10:58.480 two, you'll never be a division one. So Be Realistic about those efforts. 146 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:01.919 And that's where I think a lot of times in my experience, what 147 00:11:01.960 --> 00:11:07.679 I've seen, and even in my experience at a college setting, there was 148 00:11:07.759 --> 00:11:11.360 kind of this dissatisfaction of where we are and we've got to be something more 149 00:11:11.519 --> 00:11:16.120 and and always looking over the fence and seeing that the grass is green or 150 00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:20.200 well, we need we need to chase after that or there's that shiny object. 151 00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:24.840 We need to be that without without being satisfied with okay, this is 152 00:11:24.840 --> 00:11:28.600 our lane, this is this is who we are today, this is what 153 00:11:28.639 --> 00:11:31.679 our mission defines us as. We're not going to play outside of that. 154 00:11:31.799 --> 00:11:37.240 And and don't get me wrong, you ought to be pursuing something, you 155 00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:39.519 ought to be targeting, something you ought to be moving in a direction, 156 00:11:39.960 --> 00:11:45.000 but don't overreach in that process. I think there's a saying, I'm not 157 00:11:45.039 --> 00:11:48.879 going to say it real well, but there's a saying of don't forget who, 158 00:11:48.879 --> 00:11:54.320 who Brung you to the dance, right, and I think there's this 159 00:11:54.080 --> 00:12:01.840 idea on college campuses that we forget who brought us to the dance and we 160 00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:05.879 try to live outside of that and then that process we actually do more damage 161 00:12:05.919 --> 00:12:11.000 to the institution and potentially take it in a direction that you don't necessarily want 162 00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:15.320 to go. That's great. You also have mentioned in our pre conversation your 163 00:12:15.320 --> 00:12:22.120 belief in the necessity for departments to work well with one another across campus and 164 00:12:22.120 --> 00:12:24.720 would like for you to go a little deeper with your thoughts on that. 165 00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:30.919 Yeah, absolutely. You know, higher education is very unique. You don't 166 00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:33.240 have to be in too many of our circles and you recognize the term of 167 00:12:33.679 --> 00:12:41.320 silos and our campuses tend to be siloed, meaning that this department does this 168 00:12:41.399 --> 00:12:45.200 and this department does that, and some of it, I think, is 169 00:12:45.200 --> 00:12:50.600 a function of size. As institutions grow, their positions become more specialized and 170 00:12:50.639 --> 00:12:54.159 because of that they're hiring people who just no marketing or just no recruitment or 171 00:12:54.200 --> 00:13:00.000 just no academics, and that's all good. Growth is good, but the 172 00:13:00.039 --> 00:13:05.159 flip side of that is you're hiring people who are very specialized in their field 173 00:13:05.240 --> 00:13:11.080 and you know the I think that contributes to the silo effect. And boy, 174 00:13:11.159 --> 00:13:16.279 we got to break down silos on our college campus as we and I 175 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:18.960 get it you want to, especially when it when it comes to faculty and 176 00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:24.000 departments who have been trained. They're passionate about their area of expertise and and 177 00:13:24.039 --> 00:13:28.960 they think that they have the best academic program that there ever was and they've 178 00:13:30.039 --> 00:13:33.919 and trained to think that way. And unfortunately, what that does it creates 179 00:13:33.960 --> 00:13:39.639 the silo and I think we have to constantly be working at tearing down those 180 00:13:39.679 --> 00:13:46.200 silos so that we gain an appreciation for what other departments do on the campus. 181 00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:48.919 You know, it's it's a it's a catch twenty two situation. You 182 00:13:48.919 --> 00:13:54.879 know, professors aren't going to have students to teach if the recruitment office in 183 00:13:54.919 --> 00:13:58.919 the marketing teams aren't working together to recruit the students. They'll teach empty classrooms. 184 00:13:58.960 --> 00:14:03.759 There's there's nobody to teach. At the same time, I think the 185 00:14:03.799 --> 00:14:09.519 recruitment marketing teams need to realize that once students are identified to come into the 186 00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:13.480 campus, that that's what they experienced, that that's who's delivering on the promise, 187 00:14:13.559 --> 00:14:16.039 or the faculty members, and there has to be that appreciation for what 188 00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:20.159 those faculty members are doing in the context of the classroom. Well, you 189 00:14:20.159 --> 00:14:24.799 can't do that in a siloid effect. We were in my higher ed experience. 190 00:14:26.360 --> 00:14:31.240 Boy, we were constantly addressing silos and as soon as we identify them, 191 00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:35.000 we tried to do everything that we could to tear down those silos, 192 00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:39.320 because when you do that you've got the blinders on and all you see is 193 00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:45.279 your reality. You're not seeing beyond it. And it takes it takes a 194 00:14:45.399 --> 00:14:50.120 campus to recruit a student, it takes a campus to retain that student, 195 00:14:50.159 --> 00:14:54.399 it takes a campus to graduate that student. And if there's that shared sense 196 00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:58.080 of we're all in this together, we can't function without the other. A 197 00:14:58.120 --> 00:15:01.679 true appreciation ation for that, I think it. It goes a long way 198 00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:05.159 towards towards success on the campus. Yeah, I think you're right on that, 199 00:15:05.200 --> 00:15:09.320 Philip. I've seen some examples both ways on campus, as I you 200 00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:15.799 know, where where maybe there's a really good program that is in high demand, 201 00:15:15.879 --> 00:15:18.759 but maybe the way it's being marketed. An example I saw recently a 202 00:15:18.759 --> 00:15:24.279 criminal justice program you know, it's one of the most popular programs there are 203 00:15:24.440 --> 00:15:28.159 out there for for some students, but on the website it was not, 204 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:31.240 you know, it wasn't a major it was embedded in the social work page. 205 00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:33.960 Well, you know, those students don't know that that's the way it 206 00:15:33.960 --> 00:15:37.399 needs to go, and so the marketing on that was a little bit off. 207 00:15:37.399 --> 00:15:39.759 And so those silo effect was, you know, we put it in 208 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:43.720 the wrong place because, you know, this is the way we're structured internally. 209 00:15:43.759 --> 00:15:46.200 And then on the flip side, I sometimes see, you know, 210 00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:52.720 well meaning faculty who come and present, you know, a series of programs, 211 00:15:52.799 --> 00:15:56.720 but the market just isn't there for that particular program and so all of 212 00:15:56.720 --> 00:16:00.000 a sudden, you know, silos especially, is a way that people end 213 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:03.480 up pointing fingers and we don't want that. And I really agree with what 214 00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:07.240 you're saying there with the idea of breaking down those silos. Yeah, and 215 00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:12.080 and I think one easy way to know if you've had the silo effect is 216 00:16:12.080 --> 00:16:17.840 to look at your website. I think that's a great indicator and and I 217 00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:22.039 fell into this trap for many years and it was really only towards the end 218 00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:26.000 of my career that I really kind of kind of flipped into a one hundred 219 00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:29.320 and eighty. The tendency is to want to design the website so that a 220 00:16:29.440 --> 00:16:33.720 con additions can understand it. It's structured by departments. Well, why is 221 00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:37.799 that criminal justice program in the social worked party? Well, makes sense because 222 00:16:37.840 --> 00:16:40.919 it's a subset and you know it is, and you can make a very 223 00:16:40.960 --> 00:16:48.840 strong academic rationalist to why it's there. Well, the user, sixteen, 224 00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:52.919 seventeen, eighteen year old girl or guy who's looking at it and they don't 225 00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:59.240 know, you know, the disciplines of social work and where criminal justice is, 226 00:16:59.480 --> 00:17:02.440 they're not going to intuitively know that. I mean, think about all 227 00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:06.519 of our web experiences. If we can't get what we want within one or 228 00:17:06.559 --> 00:17:11.799 two or three cliques, we've gone on to the next thing. That's exactly 229 00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:15.319 and and the markets doing that too. So one way that you can see 230 00:17:15.319 --> 00:17:19.519 as a college siload. Have they structured it in such a way that all 231 00:17:19.559 --> 00:17:22.680 of the active additions can say, yeah, you know what it's beautiful, 232 00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:27.640 it's structured exactly how it has to be, and the market saying this makes 233 00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:30.839 no sense to us whatsoever. Yeah, well, let's talk about for a 234 00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:33.839 second. If, just if, we do have all that alignment, silos 235 00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:37.799 are removed. We've all been working on that directly and we've got a we 236 00:17:37.880 --> 00:17:42.240 got the page in the right place on the website. Now we're starting to 237 00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:47.720 talk about the return on the investment by the program yeah, what's important about 238 00:17:47.720 --> 00:17:49.759 that? And how? What's what are some of your experiences on kind of 239 00:17:49.799 --> 00:17:53.359 that perspective? Yeah, so I think it's a it's a critical it's a 240 00:17:53.359 --> 00:17:56.880 critical piece. One of the thing I do. I'll get to that here 241 00:17:56.880 --> 00:17:59.799 in a second. The the one thing that I think is important to know 242 00:17:59.880 --> 00:18:03.279 about the whole silo issue is I draw a distinction between tensions and problems. 243 00:18:03.559 --> 00:18:10.759 You solve problems, you manage tensions, and too often we treat silos as 244 00:18:10.759 --> 00:18:14.720 if their problems and we want them to go away. Well, if we 245 00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:18.720 can just fix it. Well, now, silos are our tensions and we 246 00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:22.960 shouldn't run from them. They're actually they're actually good. We have to learn 247 00:18:22.039 --> 00:18:26.880 how to manage them because by nature, if you leave it alone we will 248 00:18:26.920 --> 00:18:32.720 be siload. But if you manage it, you appreciate the distinction that the 249 00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:37.680 silo brings, but then also the value that it brings when it's viewed totally 250 00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:41.000 as a whole. I think one of the ways is when you know, 251 00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:47.960 looking at something like programmatic Roi Return on investment, that is a non siload 252 00:18:47.960 --> 00:18:52.759 approach. That is truly something that tears down those silos and that's looking at 253 00:18:52.799 --> 00:19:00.000 academic programs and saying, having a good understanding of the investment that we make 254 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:06.319 in this particular program what's our return on that? And that's a tough exercise 255 00:19:06.519 --> 00:19:11.799 to go through because you you you invoke passion. You know the the worship 256 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:15.240 Arts Department, were the Performing Arts Department is going to be very, very 257 00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:21.880 passionate about their programming. And if you suddenly show them the numbers because, 258 00:19:22.279 --> 00:19:26.599 and I'll pick on performing arts, because the ratios tend to be smaller where, 259 00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:29.880 you know you have a lot of one on one instruction, you have 260 00:19:30.039 --> 00:19:33.920 a lot of ensembles, it's very it's a very expensive program to run. 261 00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:41.640 And if you start to actually look at the return on investment on on performing 262 00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:48.200 arts programs isolated in itself, most times you're losing money. It's a losing 263 00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:52.160 money proposition. Well, we know that money doesn't grow on trees, right, 264 00:19:52.279 --> 00:19:56.200 so you know where is the money coming from in order to support that? 265 00:19:56.279 --> 00:20:00.079 Well, if you have a thriving performing arts department, Guess what, 266 00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:03.480 you're going to have another front porch. You're going to have plays and musicals 267 00:20:03.559 --> 00:20:08.039 and events that you bring donors to, and donors and now contributing because they 268 00:20:08.079 --> 00:20:11.160 see the front porch of the institution and they want to be part of something 269 00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:17.599 like that. But we need to get a little bit more disciplined in fully 270 00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:23.079 understanding the return on invest how much do we get as a result of this 271 00:20:23.119 --> 00:20:26.559 academic programs? And you know, a lot of times in my experience, 272 00:20:26.599 --> 00:20:30.440 you get caught up and well, how do we calculate that? Well, 273 00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:33.680 figure it out. You know nothing's going to be perfect, right. You 274 00:20:33.720 --> 00:20:37.599 know how many students are in an academic program just start adding up some sense 275 00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:41.119 of expense. Well, how do you add up to have a register, 276 00:20:41.119 --> 00:20:45.880 shared registrar and a financial aid office and but we'll come up with a percentage, 277 00:20:45.880 --> 00:20:49.960 you know, whatever it is to try to get of what is the 278 00:20:51.000 --> 00:20:56.319 actual expense as close as you can in order for us to operate this program 279 00:20:56.359 --> 00:21:00.000 and most of our institutions look they're breaking even in a in a best case 280 00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:04.599 scenario every year. So you're not going to find programs that are that are 281 00:21:04.839 --> 00:21:10.880 much higher and revenue over expense. But what it does it helps you make 282 00:21:10.920 --> 00:21:18.559 informed decisions so that if you're choosing to run an expensive program engineering programs very 283 00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:22.119 expensive to run, nursing programs very expensive to run, but if you have 284 00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:26.599 a good sense of what that cost is and what your return on investment is, 285 00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:30.480 you can make informed decisions to say, okay, while the nursing program 286 00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:34.240 may be expensive to run and our margin is a lot tighter there, we 287 00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:41.559 are also running a business administration program where the margins aren't necessarily as tight and 288 00:21:41.599 --> 00:21:45.799 it's a little bit cheaper to run a business administration program so you have a 289 00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:49.519 sense of okay, we're really going to enroll more students in this program to 290 00:21:49.559 --> 00:21:55.839 help support what we do. Because because nursing is a mission fit program or 291 00:21:55.839 --> 00:22:00.119 a performing arts department is is a mission fit program well, we can't operate 292 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.920 at a loss. We can operate all of our programs at a lass, 293 00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:07.640 but we may choose to do that in this case, but we fund it 294 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:10.920 by another means. Yeah. Well, you talk about breaking down silos. 295 00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:14.440 Now now there's an appreciation on the business administration side that, Hey, we're 296 00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:22.519 helping fund a Performing Arts Department or we're a nursing program or an engineering program 297 00:22:22.599 --> 00:22:26.759 yeah, I like that because I think sometimes, especially I think, well, 298 00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:30.599 I think everywhere, there's this this idea of Egalitarians and where it's like 299 00:22:30.680 --> 00:22:33.400 everybody's got to be equal, you know, especially, and I've had these 300 00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:36.880 arguments over the course of my career, especially as it relates to the website. 301 00:22:36.920 --> 00:22:41.400 Well, why is? Why is the MBA program featured on the website 302 00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:45.039 and my history programs not? That doesn't seem right. and well, it 303 00:22:45.079 --> 00:22:48.319 goes back to what we're talking about here. It's like, okay, there's 304 00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:51.400 a little bit of jealousy there, but at the same time, if I'm 305 00:22:51.440 --> 00:22:55.720 going to enroll, you know, seventy five business administration students and I've only 306 00:22:55.720 --> 00:23:00.240 got three people in the history program that comes down to dollars and sense sometimes, 307 00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:04.279 and you know, it's it's sometimes hard to make those conversations and again 308 00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:10.279 it I really liked what you said about managing that tension that that creates rather 309 00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:12.160 than trying to make that problem go away by just making everything equal. It 310 00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:18.200 won't go away because because in in academia, in scholarship, history is important, 311 00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:23.319 but no institution, unless you're a major state university, even they're you 312 00:23:23.319 --> 00:23:29.319 know, they're they're expensive to run and they need to appreciate the value of 313 00:23:29.480 --> 00:23:33.920 we value history. Is Important to have that program in order for us to 314 00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:38.000 have that program it means that there's an appreciation for, and UN reliance on 315 00:23:38.039 --> 00:23:44.720 these other programs. So it's it's it's you gain that, that level appreciation 316 00:23:44.920 --> 00:23:48.319 and you don't. You don't get that overnight. It's something that you build 317 00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:53.119 through conversations and people just just knowing that we're intentional in having this program the 318 00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:56.440 only way we can have this program is because we have these other programs. 319 00:23:56.519 --> 00:24:02.640 That's great. Statistics are saying that students who are graduating in the next couple 320 00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:07.440 of years and generation Alpha that's going to come after them will have at least 321 00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:12.519 ten different careers within their lifetime, and some of those careers have not been 322 00:24:12.559 --> 00:24:18.920 invented yet. So, from your perspective, how our colleges university supposed to 323 00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:25.279 train for this? How are they supposed to offer that mission. Yeah, 324 00:24:25.319 --> 00:24:30.119 I think this is this is probably one of the most significant issues and I'll 325 00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:36.440 make a general statement the higher education is not quite prepared for and I think 326 00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:41.480 within my context of Abag, I think we are on the cutting edge of 327 00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:45.160 this, realizing the fact that students are guent. That's not ten different jobs, 328 00:24:45.160 --> 00:24:49.799 that's ten different occupations. So really, what it does, what it 329 00:24:49.799 --> 00:24:56.200 it begs the question of what's the purpose of an undergraduate education? What are 330 00:24:56.200 --> 00:25:00.160 we preparing the students to do? For abag, that's very clear. We're 331 00:25:00.200 --> 00:25:04.839 about the great commission or about training students with the soft skills in life, 332 00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:10.599 the relational skills in life, that, regardless of occupational context, they have 333 00:25:10.680 --> 00:25:12.680 a sense of that they're sharing Christ with the people that they come in contact 334 00:25:12.759 --> 00:25:17.440 with. But I think the reality get crosses over very, very easily, 335 00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:19.880 as you have to ask the hard question. Higher Education has to look at 336 00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:25.000 self in the mirror and say, what are we preparing our students to do, 337 00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:29.559 realizing that we can't even anticipate the career that they're going to have ten 338 00:25:29.640 --> 00:25:33.880 years now, twenty years from now? Are there requisite life skills, foundational 339 00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:40.160 skills that we want to make sure that our graduates leave our institutions with so 340 00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:45.000 that they can be a successful in an environment where they will have ten different 341 00:25:45.000 --> 00:25:48.839 occupations. So I think what it what it's doing is really begging the whole 342 00:25:48.920 --> 00:25:53.319 end and in some ways it's kind of coming back to what higher education was, 343 00:25:53.519 --> 00:25:57.079 and it was pretty much that sense of preparing you. So so you 344 00:25:57.079 --> 00:26:03.240 look at an undergraduate education the court and undergraduate education is is developing critical thinking 345 00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:08.519 skills. Unfortunately, higher education is kind of turned it more into content up. 346 00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:12.640 You need to know this body of knowledge and we need to pivot off 347 00:26:12.680 --> 00:26:18.400 of that, and and and our classrooms are professors have to pivot on. 348 00:26:18.519 --> 00:26:22.000 It's not so much this is what you need to know, because grab your 349 00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:26.480 phone. Great information is readily available. The question is, what do you 350 00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:32.240 do with that information? Do you have the skills to critically think through that 351 00:26:32.279 --> 00:26:37.359 evaluation or that information and, in our case, value it for truth capitalty 352 00:26:37.799 --> 00:26:41.960 to say, you know what, this information is not valid because of x, 353 00:26:41.160 --> 00:26:47.319 Y and Z, and I think there's a whole reframing of higher education 354 00:26:47.319 --> 00:26:51.279 that's coming where we're going to seriously. Course, the public is already asking 355 00:26:51.319 --> 00:26:55.680 it. You just have to pick up a newspaper and somebody saying you're not 356 00:26:55.799 --> 00:26:59.240 going to take out two mortgages in order to form my for junior to go 357 00:26:59.279 --> 00:27:03.880 to college. They're graduating with six figures of debt, and so the valid 358 00:27:03.960 --> 00:27:10.079 question is being asked, what's what's the value? What am I getting as 359 00:27:10.119 --> 00:27:15.319 a result of this education? And I think that margin of value to reality 360 00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:19.000 is just gotten pretty, pretty tight, and I think it's a great reframing 361 00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:22.880 opportunity to say, you know, you know what, there is tremendous value. 362 00:27:22.920 --> 00:27:26.519 We are giving you life skills, we are giving you relational skills, 363 00:27:26.519 --> 00:27:33.480 those soft skills to be able to go into context, to totally reframe who 364 00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:37.759 we are so that we can be successful and whatever that next occupation is. 365 00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:44.920 Look at Covid. Covid just totally blew up the job market even to where 366 00:27:44.960 --> 00:27:48.160 we actually do our jobs and where we work. And how do we prepare 367 00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:52.279 students to go into that context and be successful and to be able to reinvent 368 00:27:52.359 --> 00:27:59.200 themselves so that they can be successful with whatever that next career that's coming their 369 00:27:59.240 --> 00:28:02.400 way? Yeah, I love that. That's a really good point. As 370 00:28:02.440 --> 00:28:07.240 we bring it to a close, our question to our guest always is if 371 00:28:07.279 --> 00:28:11.880 there is a tip, a topic something that you could offer that could be 372 00:28:11.920 --> 00:28:17.039 immediately implemented? What would that be? Yeah, so I appreciate the question 373 00:28:17.319 --> 00:28:21.680 and I appreciate the fact that you ask it in advance so I could actually 374 00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:30.440 think about it. And so it's going to sound perhaps too simplistic, but 375 00:28:30.519 --> 00:28:34.079 if you are, you know, the head of a recruiting department or Marketing 376 00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:38.119 Department, or even if you know if you're if you're just simply recruiting students, 377 00:28:40.200 --> 00:28:45.240 how do you start to address the mountain of the silos within higher education? 378 00:28:45.799 --> 00:28:49.880 It all happens by relationship. I've yet to experience in my higher ed 379 00:28:51.160 --> 00:28:56.799 experience the solution to the problem is a structure. The solution to the problem 380 00:28:56.799 --> 00:29:03.279 where the solution to managing tensions doesn't happen by putting a new structure in. 381 00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:11.640 It happens by relationship. So the the the easy thing to do. If 382 00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:15.880 you're a marketer, if you're a recruitment officer, pick up the phone, 383 00:29:15.920 --> 00:29:19.839 send an email to the chief academic officer of the institution where you serve and 384 00:29:19.880 --> 00:29:23.839 say hey, I want to take you to lunch. Start building a relationship. 385 00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:29.920 If you're a recruiter and you don't fully understand how the academics are structured 386 00:29:29.960 --> 00:29:33.160 and you sense that there are some of those silos within your institution. Pick 387 00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:37.839 up the phone, send an email to the department head where you don't understand 388 00:29:37.880 --> 00:29:42.039 it. Build a relationship, have a conversation, help me understand how social 389 00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:48.319 work happens. And that's how it happens, one relationship at a time. 390 00:29:48.599 --> 00:29:52.400 And I think our technology, this is one of the downsides of our technology, 391 00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:56.039 is it's forced us to tyranny of the urgent. Whatever's coming next, 392 00:29:56.039 --> 00:29:59.000 I'm just going to dress, I'm going to dress, I'm going to dress. 393 00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:00.960 I can, I can, I can just send a quick email response. 394 00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:08.799 I can. We've abandoned relationship and it takes time to build those relationships 395 00:30:08.839 --> 00:30:12.839 because then when it comes time to have some of those tough conversations, there's 396 00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:17.720 a relational context in which you can have that. I think we need to 397 00:30:17.720 --> 00:30:22.839 bring relationships back into our working communities. So that's a simple thing. Just 398 00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:26.559 pick up the phone, just just take them the lunch. You'll shock the 399 00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:30.119 socks off of them the fact that you're right. Take him the coffee if 400 00:30:30.119 --> 00:30:33.880 you can afford lunch, but build those relationships one relationship at a time. 401 00:30:34.240 --> 00:30:38.240 Thank you. Philip, how can our listeners contact you if they would like 402 00:30:38.279 --> 00:30:44.279 to do so? Absolutely so. Email is the best and my email is 403 00:30:44.400 --> 00:30:48.799 Philip Dot Dearborn at Abh Dot Org, and you can certainly access me through 404 00:30:48.839 --> 00:30:53.640 our website, Abh she dot org. But I love having conversations around this 405 00:30:53.680 --> 00:30:57.720 and off any of your listeners want to continue the conversation, I'd be happy 406 00:30:57.839 --> 00:31:03.640 to engage with them on that. Thank you, Philip Bart your closing thoughts? 407 00:31:03.720 --> 00:31:04.799 Yeah, I just wanted to point out a few things that Philip said 408 00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:11.440 because this is such a rich and informative interview and conversation. I really appreciate 409 00:31:11.480 --> 00:31:14.119 it. A lot of what we talked about with mission fit and again, 410 00:31:14.279 --> 00:31:15.839 you know, rewind a little bit if you want to kind of re listen 411 00:31:15.880 --> 00:31:22.000 to that and see how it applies to your particular school and your particular situation. 412 00:31:22.039 --> 00:31:23.240 But I think beyond that, one of the things I really appreciated was 413 00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:29.799 this idea of tension versus problem, the idea of managing the tensions and recognizing 414 00:31:29.799 --> 00:31:32.640 that, you know, we just can't get rid of problems. We've got 415 00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:36.000 to kind of look at those and how that works with silos, and even 416 00:31:36.079 --> 00:31:40.160 this last tip that Philip said about, you know, building those relationships. 417 00:31:40.200 --> 00:31:44.680 It reminded me a lot of conversation we had a few episodes ago with Eleanor 418 00:31:44.799 --> 00:31:48.720 Bierman from Chief Marketing Officer in Indiana University. She talked about all the silos 419 00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:52.759 that are in these big state systems. These silos are everywhere. I mean 420 00:31:52.799 --> 00:31:56.240 we've been talking about Small Bible colleges to you know, big state systems like 421 00:31:56.279 --> 00:32:00.319 Indiana University. Silos exist in higher education and I love the fact that Philip 422 00:32:00.400 --> 00:32:05.359 talked about one of the best ways to bring those silos down is is relationships. 423 00:32:05.359 --> 00:32:08.160 You know, Eleanor talked about clarity of vision. There's there's ways of 424 00:32:08.559 --> 00:32:13.359 relationship and and speaking that clarity of vision, which I think can happen over 425 00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:16.839 coffee. Probably the best way to have that clarity of vision is over coffee 426 00:32:16.839 --> 00:32:22.000 so that if you don't understand the vision of the you know, academic department, 427 00:32:22.359 --> 00:32:24.640 you're talking them over coffee and we're really getting to know each other and 428 00:32:24.680 --> 00:32:30.079 building that trust. So really appreciate your your time and your thoughts on this, 429 00:32:30.079 --> 00:32:31.559 Philip. Thank you so much for being a part of this. Absolutely 430 00:32:31.599 --> 00:32:36.640 my pleasure. That concludes the Higher Ed Marketer Podcast, which is sponsored by 431 00:32:36.680 --> 00:32:40.720 Kaylor solutions and education, marketing and branding agency and by thing patented, a 432 00:32:40.839 --> 00:32:50.000 Marketing Execution Company specializing in mailings, printing, customization and personalized outreach programs. 433 00:32:50.039 --> 00:32:52.720 On behalf of my cohost, Bart Kaylor, I'm tchroice singer. Thank you 434 00:32:52.759 --> 00:33:00.440 for joining us. You've been listening to the Higher Ed Marketer to to ensure 435 00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:04.319 that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast 436 00:33:04.359 --> 00:33:07.680 player. If you're listening with apple PODCASTS, we'd love for you to leave 437 00:33:07.720 --> 00:33:12.200 a quick rating of the show. Simply tap the number of stars you think 438 00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:14.839 the podcast deserves. Until next time,