Ending Departmental Silos & Focusing on Mission Fit

WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.919 --> 00:00:07.240 You are listening to the Higher Ed Marketer, a podcast geared towards marketing professionals 2 00:00:07.280 --> 00:00:11.960 in higher education. This show will tackle all sorts of questions related to student 3 00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:16.800 recruitment, don'tor relations, marketing trends, new technologies and so much more. 4 00:00:17.079 --> 00:00:21.000 If you are looking for conversation centered around where the industry is going, this 5 00:00:21.039 --> 00:00:28.480 podcast is for you. Let's get into the show. Welcome to the High 6 00:00:28.640 --> 00:00:33.159 Ed Marketer podcast. I'm troy singer in here with my cohost Bart Taylor, 7 00:00:33.240 --> 00:00:38.439 where each week we interview higher Ed marketers that we admire for the betterment of 8 00:00:38.479 --> 00:00:42.560 the community. Today we get to talk to Philip Dearborn, who is the 9 00:00:42.600 --> 00:00:48.719 president of the Association of Biblical Higher Education. He comes to us with twenty 10 00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:54.600 five plus years worth of knowledge. He comes to us with wonderful stories and 11 00:00:54.679 --> 00:00:59.679 I can't wait for everyone to listen to the practical advice daddy and ministers. 12 00:00:59.759 --> 00:01:03.159 Yeah, try he's it's such a great episode. There were so many different 13 00:01:03.159 --> 00:01:07.560 topics that we talked about, everything from recruiting mission fit students and what that 14 00:01:07.599 --> 00:01:10.959 means in a broader sense, as well as to just the idea of, 15 00:01:11.040 --> 00:01:15.239 you know, silos on campus and ways to kind of work around those. 16 00:01:15.400 --> 00:01:17.840 One of the things that I really want to kind of encourage everybody. I 17 00:01:17.840 --> 00:01:19.159 mean as if you're just starting to join us and you're like, okay, 18 00:01:19.159 --> 00:01:22.799 I'm going to stick around for this episode, because that's the way I am 19 00:01:22.840 --> 00:01:25.719 with podcast sometimes. I want to really encourage you that you know, even 20 00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:30.760 though you might not your school might not be a Bible College, you might 21 00:01:30.799 --> 00:01:34.079 not be a faith based school and there might be different feelings that you have 22 00:01:34.120 --> 00:01:37.280 about that, a lot of what we talked about is applicable to just about 23 00:01:37.280 --> 00:01:40.560 every school, whether you're a big school, small school or in between. 24 00:01:40.560 --> 00:01:42.799 I really encourage you to kind of just listen and hear everything that that we 25 00:01:42.840 --> 00:01:47.599 talked about because, even though we talk about mission fit students, every school 26 00:01:47.640 --> 00:01:49.480 and as you'll see as you're here in the episode, every school has a 27 00:01:49.519 --> 00:01:53.680 mission and you need to find the right types of students to fulfill that mission 28 00:01:53.719 --> 00:01:57.519 of your institution. He does an excellent job of conveying the successful practices and 29 00:01:57.599 --> 00:02:01.359 Higher Ed Marketing and leadership. Yeah, you can. Without further ADO, 30 00:02:01.519 --> 00:02:08.400 here's Philip Dearborn. We are speaking with Philip Dearborn here on the Higher Ed 31 00:02:08.479 --> 00:02:13.319 Marketer podcast. Thank you so much for being a guest today with this Philip, 32 00:02:13.400 --> 00:02:16.919 it's a pleasure to be here troy. Because of your experience both on 33 00:02:16.960 --> 00:02:23.360 the college level and then now your current position with an accreditation on associate level, 34 00:02:23.400 --> 00:02:30.960 we would like to talk to you about successful leadership and also marketing within 35 00:02:30.240 --> 00:02:34.439 higher education and before we get into it, if you could give us a 36 00:02:34.479 --> 00:02:38.360 little bit about your background and also what you currently do. Sure, I 37 00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:44.360 spent prior to joining the Association for a Biblical Higher Education, Abh G. 38 00:02:45.039 --> 00:02:50.199 before joining them as president, I served just over twenty five years in Biblical 39 00:02:50.319 --> 00:02:54.879 Higher Education and in that time pretty much hit almost every single department that you 40 00:02:55.080 --> 00:03:00.199 possibly could on a campus. I started recruiting students, move from there into 41 00:03:00.199 --> 00:03:05.800 the registrar's office, then went from there to an associate vice president and a 42 00:03:05.879 --> 00:03:09.199 vice president, then provost and even spend a little bit of time as an 43 00:03:09.199 --> 00:03:15.879 interim vice president of Student Affairs. So I've I've been around the campus and 44 00:03:16.159 --> 00:03:20.800 kind of get a sense of everything that happens on a campus. Thank you. 45 00:03:21.080 --> 00:03:25.800 In previous conversations, I know that one of the one of your passions 46 00:03:27.000 --> 00:03:31.560 is making sure schools know that the height of their success is going to come 47 00:03:31.599 --> 00:03:37.719 from the pursuit of mission fit students and would love to go into that conversation 48 00:03:37.960 --> 00:03:40.879 with you and if you could just share some of your perspective and why you 49 00:03:40.960 --> 00:03:45.759 feel so passionately about that. Sure, sure, and a lot of it. 50 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:51.159 I think that that passion has driven to where I am now as president 51 00:03:51.199 --> 00:03:53.280 of Abh G, where I kind of get a little bit more of a 52 00:03:53.319 --> 00:03:59.159 global picture at Biblical higher education and Biblical High Education. We have a hundred 53 00:03:59.159 --> 00:04:03.599 and fifty five institutions across North America. Eighteen of those earned Canada, and 54 00:04:03.759 --> 00:04:09.159 those institutions are enrolling about sixty three thou students, which is really cool to 55 00:04:09.159 --> 00:04:15.199 see. I mean that's sixty threezero students who are laser focused on fulfilling God's 56 00:04:15.240 --> 00:04:23.720 call in their lives and I think that's where mission fit why I'm so passionate 57 00:04:23.800 --> 00:04:29.920 about that, because biblical higher education is laser focused on Biblical and theological education 58 00:04:30.199 --> 00:04:36.240 and I think it's important that throughout the entire institution, from beginning to end, 59 00:04:36.360 --> 00:04:44.480 the entire student experience, that institutions are recruiting truly mission fit institutions who 60 00:04:44.560 --> 00:04:51.360 are looking to fulfill God's call on their life and an institutions got identify those 61 00:04:51.360 --> 00:04:56.360 students who fit with that institution. I think that's a I think that's a 62 00:04:56.399 --> 00:04:59.199 great point, Philip, and I know that we've talked about this before and 63 00:04:59.319 --> 00:05:01.600 I've spoken with a a lot of my clients and full transparency, I do 64 00:05:01.759 --> 00:05:05.000 work with Abh g and several of their institutions. But one of the things 65 00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:08.360 I want to kind of for you know, I don't want to turn this 66 00:05:08.399 --> 00:05:11.319 into I don't want somebody tuning out right now because it's like, okay, 67 00:05:11.319 --> 00:05:14.079 well, I'm not a Bible College, so I don't this doesn't apply to 68 00:05:14.079 --> 00:05:16.680 me. Don't do that, because really what we're talking about here is I 69 00:05:16.680 --> 00:05:21.879 believe that every college in in in the world can benefit from understanding what true 70 00:05:21.879 --> 00:05:26.639 mission fit means. I mean, we're talking about the context here of Biblical 71 00:05:26.720 --> 00:05:30.319 Higher Education and I've seen it play out a little bit. But keep in 72 00:05:30.360 --> 00:05:33.839 mind that we're talking about if you're an art school, you have mission fit 73 00:05:33.920 --> 00:05:39.199 students because you're you're trying to find students who need an art eduction education. 74 00:05:39.240 --> 00:05:43.240 If you're an engineering school, same thing. So this applies broadly. So 75 00:05:43.399 --> 00:05:46.480 don't tune us out because we're focused in on a specific you know element of 76 00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:50.199 that, but I think it's it's really critical fill up because I've worked with 77 00:05:50.240 --> 00:05:56.000 a lot of schools and even larger faith based schools that that maybe our more 78 00:05:56.079 --> 00:06:00.680 liberal arts in their approach as opposed to specifically Biblical and theological training. I've 79 00:06:00.720 --> 00:06:03.959 seen that, even when they are trying to focus on mission fit, and 80 00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:06.319 you know I've heard it before, it's like, you know, hey, 81 00:06:06.360 --> 00:06:11.319 we're really we're really trying to, you know, really increase the enrollment pool. 82 00:06:11.399 --> 00:06:13.879 Maybe we've leaned into athletics to do that a little bit. You know, 83 00:06:14.120 --> 00:06:17.040 we're really trying to bring in as many student athletes to fill the rosters. 84 00:06:17.079 --> 00:06:20.079 But guess what, when they get there first week, they spend a 85 00:06:20.160 --> 00:06:23.160 day in chapel and they're like, Oh, you guys are kind of serious 86 00:06:23.160 --> 00:06:25.959 about this Jesus thing. What's that going on? Yeah, so, so 87 00:06:26.040 --> 00:06:30.879 when you have that friction between, you know, mission fit students versus a 88 00:06:30.920 --> 00:06:33.560 student that's just going to fill a fill a roster or fill a spot in 89 00:06:33.600 --> 00:06:38.279 a seat on campus, that can really be detrimental to this institution. Yeah, 90 00:06:39.399 --> 00:06:42.920 you set it very well, Barret, and you know I look at 91 00:06:42.839 --> 00:06:48.759 at as institutional alignment. Probably no other sector, perhaps the healthcare industry would 92 00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:53.439 be up there. But but when you talk about mission within higher education, 93 00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:59.839 I the accreditation market, everything. Your mission is the promise that you make 94 00:06:59.879 --> 00:07:03.959 to the students. That's what you're going to fulfill if they engage with you 95 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:09.399 and study your institution. You know, pretty much on any college campus you 96 00:07:09.399 --> 00:07:12.399 can ask a faculty member, you can ask a staff member, you can 97 00:07:12.439 --> 00:07:17.519 ask the present what's the mission of the institution? And so it's starts there 98 00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:25.120 and it drives everything that the institution does. So if you have misalignment right 99 00:07:25.160 --> 00:07:28.439 from the beginning, I mean look at student life cycle, even from, 100 00:07:28.480 --> 00:07:32.720 you know, the prospecting side of it all the way through, you need 101 00:07:32.720 --> 00:07:39.720 institutional alignment to make sure that you're not compromising on that mission. You know, 102 00:07:40.160 --> 00:07:43.120 it's a it's it's an extreme case to say, you know, if 103 00:07:43.160 --> 00:07:47.199 you're an engineering school and your your mission is laser focused on engineering and you 104 00:07:47.240 --> 00:07:50.759 make the decision, okay, well, we're going to enroll these art students 105 00:07:50.800 --> 00:07:56.560 because we need to fill more seats, there's going to be an inconsistency there 106 00:07:56.720 --> 00:08:00.800 and those students aren't going to have a good experience on your campus. And 107 00:08:00.879 --> 00:08:03.519 in fact, what they do is actually take away from the experience of those 108 00:08:03.519 --> 00:08:09.079 who are mission fit students. But the reality is, especially in the market 109 00:08:09.160 --> 00:08:16.279 of higher education, there's a whole lot of pressure on enrollment officers and marketing 110 00:08:16.279 --> 00:08:26.519 departments to fill seats and sometimes that pressure becomes so overwhelming that you start to 111 00:08:26.600 --> 00:08:31.000 cheat and you start to compromise on that mission. And I don't think it 112 00:08:31.079 --> 00:08:37.279 happens all at once either. I think it's this iterative approach that well, 113 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:41.279 if we just if we just recruit these students and well, if we just 114 00:08:41.320 --> 00:08:43.600 do this, if we just do this, if we just do this, 115 00:08:43.639 --> 00:08:46.639 and before you know it, over time, what you've done you water down 116 00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:52.720 your mission and you've moved away from really what your main target ought to be. 117 00:08:52.799 --> 00:08:54.679 Yeah, I think that's so critical and and I know that in our 118 00:08:54.720 --> 00:08:58.440 pre conversation a little bit we talked about just the whole idea of yet when 119 00:08:58.480 --> 00:09:01.879 we start to kind of there's two things. I think. One is we've 120 00:09:01.879 --> 00:09:07.600 really got to understand from a institutional standpoint, and many times marketers are the 121 00:09:07.639 --> 00:09:11.120 ones that can kind of help help drive this is what who are we really? 122 00:09:11.720 --> 00:09:15.399 What do we all about? What is that mission? Because, I 123 00:09:15.399 --> 00:09:16.360 mean, we can kind of all know it and when we see it, 124 00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:20.519 but how do we articulate it and then how do we just kind of continue 125 00:09:20.559 --> 00:09:24.399 to, you know, that drum beat, not only externally for the prospective 126 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:28.720 students that we have, but also internally, for for our internal audiences? 127 00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:31.519 I think that's one thing, but I think the second thing also is the 128 00:09:31.559 --> 00:09:37.159 idea of really making sure that that alignment that we have internally, that we 129 00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:39.120 really kind of play in our own lanes so that we can make sure that 130 00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:45.720 those those items that we're doing are are working for the betterment of the entire 131 00:09:45.759 --> 00:09:48.480 institution and how we represent the brand. What do you think about that, 132 00:09:48.519 --> 00:09:54.679 Philip? Yeah. Yeah, so it's a fascinating conversation when you look at 133 00:09:54.679 --> 00:09:58.000 when you look at mission, when you look at efforts that college is make 134 00:09:58.120 --> 00:10:01.039 to enroll new students, and and I want to be clear that you know 135 00:10:01.799 --> 00:10:07.440 athletics as a front porch, the worship arts or theater arts or production arts 136 00:10:07.519 --> 00:10:11.159 or another front porch. Front Porch is what the public sees, and so 137 00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:16.000 a lot of times institutions use their front porch to recruit students in and there's 138 00:10:16.039 --> 00:10:20.639 nothing wrong with that. I think. I think you can have a very 139 00:10:20.679 --> 00:10:28.600 strong athletic recruitment effort at a Bible College or even at an engineering school. 140 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:33.919 So there are definitely front porch elements that you want to track students in. 141 00:10:35.639 --> 00:10:39.879 You just have to make sure that they are mission fit from the start that 142 00:10:39.960 --> 00:10:43.159 by having that, then suddenly doesn't say, okay, well, we're going 143 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:46.320 to have this, we're going to grow our Bible college enrollment through an athletics 144 00:10:46.320 --> 00:10:52.080 programs. Well, you're only going to be a division three, maybe division 145 00:10:52.080 --> 00:10:58.480 two, you'll never be a division one. So Be Realistic about those efforts. 146 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:01.919 And that's where I think a lot of times in my experience, what 147 00:11:01.960 --> 00:11:07.679 I've seen, and even in my experience at a college setting, there was 148 00:11:07.759 --> 00:11:11.360 kind of this dissatisfaction of where we are and we've got to be something more 149 00:11:11.519 --> 00:11:16.120 and and always looking over the fence and seeing that the grass is green or 150 00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:20.200 well, we need we need to chase after that or there's that shiny object. 151 00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:24.840 We need to be that without without being satisfied with okay, this is 152 00:11:24.840 --> 00:11:28.600 our lane, this is this is who we are today, this is what 153 00:11:28.639 --> 00:11:31.679 our mission defines us as. We're not going to play outside of that. 154 00:11:31.799 --> 00:11:37.240 And and don't get me wrong, you ought to be pursuing something, you 155 00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:39.519 ought to be targeting, something you ought to be moving in a direction, 156 00:11:39.960 --> 00:11:45.000 but don't overreach in that process. I think there's a saying, I'm not 157 00:11:45.039 --> 00:11:48.879 going to say it real well, but there's a saying of don't forget who, 158 00:11:48.879 --> 00:11:54.320 who Brung you to the dance, right, and I think there's this 159 00:11:54.080 --> 00:12:01.840 idea on college campuses that we forget who brought us to the dance and we 160 00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:05.879 try to live outside of that and then that process we actually do more damage 161 00:12:05.919 --> 00:12:11.000 to the institution and potentially take it in a direction that you don't necessarily want 162 00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:15.320 to go. That's great. You also have mentioned in our pre conversation your 163 00:12:15.320 --> 00:12:22.120 belief in the necessity for departments to work well with one another across campus and 164 00:12:22.120 --> 00:12:24.720 would like for you to go a little deeper with your thoughts on that. 165 00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:30.919 Yeah, absolutely. You know, higher education is very unique. You don't 166 00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:33.240 have to be in too many of our circles and you recognize the term of 167 00:12:33.679 --> 00:12:41.320 silos and our campuses tend to be siloed, meaning that this department does this 168 00:12:41.399 --> 00:12:45.200 and this department does that, and some of it, I think, is 169 00:12:45.200 --> 00:12:50.600 a function of size. As institutions grow, their positions become more specialized and 170 00:12:50.639 --> 00:12:54.159 because of that they're hiring people who just no marketing or just no recruitment or 171 00:12:54.200 --> 00:13:00.000 just no academics, and that's all good. Growth is good, but the 172 00:13:00.039 --> 00:13:05.159 flip side of that is you're hiring people who are very specialized in their field 173 00:13:05.240 --> 00:13:11.080 and you know the I think that contributes to the silo effect. And boy, 174 00:13:11.159 --> 00:13:16.279 we got to break down silos on our college campus as we and I 175 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:18.960 get it you want to, especially when it when it comes to faculty and 176 00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:24.000 departments who have been trained. They're passionate about their area of expertise and and 177 00:13:24.039 --> 00:13:28.960 they think that they have the best academic program that there ever was and they've 178 00:13:30.039 --> 00:13:33.919 and trained to think that way. And unfortunately, what that does it creates 179 00:13:33.960 --> 00:13:39.639 the silo and I think we have to constantly be working at tearing down those 180 00:13:39.679 --> 00:13:46.200 silos so that we gain an appreciation for what other departments do on the campus. 181 00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:48.919 You know, it's it's a it's a catch twenty two situation. You 182 00:13:48.919 --> 00:13:54.879 know, professors aren't going to have students to teach if the recruitment office in 183 00:13:54.919 --> 00:13:58.919 the marketing teams aren't working together to recruit the students. They'll teach empty classrooms. 184 00:13:58.960 --> 00:14:03.759 There's there's nobody to teach. At the same time, I think the 185 00:14:03.799 --> 00:14:09.519 recruitment marketing teams need to realize that once students are identified to come into the 186 00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:13.480 campus, that that's what they experienced, that that's who's delivering on the promise, 187 00:14:13.559 --> 00:14:16.039 or the faculty members, and there has to be that appreciation for what 188 00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:20.159 those faculty members are doing in the context of the classroom. Well, you 189 00:14:20.159 --> 00:14:24.799 can't do that in a siloid effect. We were in my higher ed experience. 190 00:14:26.360 --> 00:14:31.240 Boy, we were constantly addressing silos and as soon as we identify them, 191 00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:35.000 we tried to do everything that we could to tear down those silos, 192 00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:39.320 because when you do that you've got the blinders on and all you see is 193 00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:45.279 your reality. You're not seeing beyond it. And it takes it takes a 194 00:14:45.399 --> 00:14:50.120 campus to recruit a student, it takes a campus to retain that student, 195 00:14:50.159 --> 00:14:54.399 it takes a campus to graduate that student. And if there's that shared sense 196 00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:58.080 of we're all in this together, we can't function without the other. A 197 00:14:58.120 --> 00:15:01.679 true appreciation ation for that, I think it. It goes a long way 198 00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:05.159 towards towards success on the campus. Yeah, I think you're right on that, 199 00:15:05.200 --> 00:15:09.320 Philip. I've seen some examples both ways on campus, as I you 200 00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:15.799 know, where where maybe there's a really good program that is in high demand, 201 00:15:15.879 --> 00:15:18.759 but maybe the way it's being marketed. An example I saw recently a 202 00:15:18.759 --> 00:15:24.279 criminal justice program you know, it's one of the most popular programs there are 203 00:15:24.440 --> 00:15:28.159 out there for for some students, but on the website it was not, 204 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:31.240 you know, it wasn't a major it was embedded in the social work page. 205 00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:33.960 Well, you know, those students don't know that that's the way it 206 00:15:33.960 --> 00:15:37.399 needs to go, and so the marketing on that was a little bit off. 207 00:15:37.399 --> 00:15:39.759 And so those silo effect was, you know, we put it in 208 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:43.720 the wrong place because, you know, this is the way we're structured internally. 209 00:15:43.759 --> 00:15:46.200 And then on the flip side, I sometimes see, you know, 210 00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:52.720 well meaning faculty who come and present, you know, a series of programs, 211 00:15:52.799 --> 00:15:56.720 but the market just isn't there for that particular program and so all of 212 00:15:56.720 --> 00:16:00.000 a sudden, you know, silos especially, is a way that people end 213 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:03.480 up pointing fingers and we don't want that. And I really agree with what 214 00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:07.240 you're saying there with the idea of breaking down those silos. Yeah, and 215 00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:12.080 and I think one easy way to know if you've had the silo effect is 216 00:16:12.080 --> 00:16:17.840 to look at your website. I think that's a great indicator and and I 217 00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:22.039 fell into this trap for many years and it was really only towards the end 218 00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:26.000 of my career that I really kind of kind of flipped into a one hundred 219 00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:29.320 and eighty. The tendency is to want to design the website so that a 220 00:16:29.440 --> 00:16:33.720 con additions can understand it. It's structured by departments. Well, why is 221 00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:37.799 that criminal justice program in the social worked party? Well, makes sense because 222 00:16:37.840 --> 00:16:40.919 it's a subset and you know it is, and you can make a very 223 00:16:40.960 --> 00:16:48.840 strong academic rationalist to why it's there. Well, the user, sixteen, 224 00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:52.919 seventeen, eighteen year old girl or guy who's looking at it and they don't 225 00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:59.240 know, you know, the disciplines of social work and where criminal justice is, 226 00:16:59.480 --> 00:17:02.440 they're not going to intuitively know that. I mean, think about all 227 00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:06.519 of our web experiences. If we can't get what we want within one or 228 00:17:06.559 --> 00:17:11.799 two or three cliques, we've gone on to the next thing. That's exactly 229 00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:15.319 and and the markets doing that too. So one way that you can see 230 00:17:15.319 --> 00:17:19.519 as a college siload. Have they structured it in such a way that all 231 00:17:19.559 --> 00:17:22.680 of the active additions can say, yeah, you know what it's beautiful, 232 00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:27.640 it's structured exactly how it has to be, and the market saying this makes 233 00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:30.839 no sense to us whatsoever. Yeah, well, let's talk about for a 234 00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:33.839 second. If, just if, we do have all that alignment, silos 235 00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:37.799 are removed. We've all been working on that directly and we've got a we 236 00:17:37.880 --> 00:17:42.240 got the page in the right place on the website. Now we're starting to 237 00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:47.720 talk about the return on the investment by the program yeah, what's important about 238 00:17:47.720 --> 00:17:49.759 that? And how? What's what are some of your experiences on kind of 239 00:17:49.799 --> 00:17:53.359 that perspective? Yeah, so I think it's a it's a critical it's a 240 00:17:53.359 --> 00:17:56.880 critical piece. One of the thing I do. I'll get to that here 241 00:17:56.880 --> 00:17:59.799 in a second. The the one thing that I think is important to know 242 00:17:59.880 --> 00:18:03.279 about the whole silo issue is I draw a distinction between tensions and problems. 243 00:18:03.559 --> 00:18:10.759 You solve problems, you manage tensions, and too often we treat silos as 244 00:18:10.759 --> 00:18:14.720 if their problems and we want them to go away. Well, if we 245 00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:18.720 can just fix it. Well, now, silos are our tensions and we 246 00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:22.960 shouldn't run from them. They're actually they're actually good. We have to learn 247 00:18:22.039 --> 00:18:26.880 how to manage them because by nature, if you leave it alone we will 248 00:18:26.920 --> 00:18:32.720 be siload. But if you manage it, you appreciate the distinction that the 249 00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:37.680 silo brings, but then also the value that it brings when it's viewed totally 250 00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:41.000 as a whole. I think one of the ways is when you know, 251 00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:47.960 looking at something like programmatic Roi Return on investment, that is a non siload 252 00:18:47.960 --> 00:18:52.759 approach. That is truly something that tears down those silos and that's looking at 253 00:18:52.799 --> 00:19:00.000 academic programs and saying, having a good understanding of the investment that we make 254 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:06.319 in this particular program what's our return on that? And that's a tough exercise 255 00:19:06.519 --> 00:19:11.799 to go through because you you you invoke passion. You know the the worship 256 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:15.240 Arts Department, were the Performing Arts Department is going to be very, very 257 00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:21.880 passionate about their programming. And if you suddenly show them the numbers because, 258 00:19:22.279 --> 00:19:26.599 and I'll pick on performing arts, because the ratios tend to be smaller where, 259 00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:29.880 you know you have a lot of one on one instruction, you have 260 00:19:30.039 --> 00:19:33.920 a lot of ensembles, it's very it's a very expensive program to run. 261 00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:41.640 And if you start to actually look at the return on investment on on performing 262 00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:48.200 arts programs isolated in itself, most times you're losing money. It's a losing 263 00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:52.160 money proposition. Well, we know that money doesn't grow on trees, right, 264 00:19:52.279 --> 00:19:56.200 so you know where is the money coming from in order to support that? 265 00:19:56.279 --> 00:20:00.079 Well, if you have a thriving performing arts department, Guess what, 266 00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:03.480 you're going to have another front porch. You're going to have plays and musicals 267 00:20:03.559 --> 00:20:08.039 and events that you bring donors to, and donors and now contributing because they 268 00:20:08.079 --> 00:20:11.160 see the front porch of the institution and they want to be part of something 269 00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:17.599 like that. But we need to get a little bit more disciplined in fully 270 00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:23.079 understanding the return on invest how much do we get as a result of this 271 00:20:23.119 --> 00:20:26.559 academic programs? And you know, a lot of times in my experience, 272 00:20:26.599 --> 00:20:30.440 you get caught up and well, how do we calculate that? Well, 273 00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:33.680 figure it out. You know nothing's going to be perfect, right. You 274 00:20:33.720 --> 00:20:37.599 know how many students are in an academic program just start adding up some sense 275 00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:41.119 of expense. Well, how do you add up to have a register, 276 00:20:41.119 --> 00:20:45.880 shared registrar and a financial aid office and but we'll come up with a percentage, 277 00:20:45.880 --> 00:20:49.960 you know, whatever it is to try to get of what is the 278 00:20:51.000 --> 00:20:56.319 actual expense as close as you can in order for us to operate this program 279 00:20:56.359 --> 00:21:00.000 and most of our institutions look they're breaking even in a in a best case 280 00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:04.599 scenario every year. So you're not going to find programs that are that are 281 00:21:04.839 --> 00:21:10.880 much higher and revenue over expense. But what it does it helps you make 282 00:21:10.920 --> 00:21:18.559 informed decisions so that if you're choosing to run an expensive program engineering programs very 283 00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:22.119 expensive to run, nursing programs very expensive to run, but if you have 284 00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:26.599 a good sense of what that cost is and what your return on investment is, 285 00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:30.480 you can make informed decisions to say, okay, while the nursing program 286 00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:34.240 may be expensive to run and our margin is a lot tighter there, we 287 00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:41.559 are also running a business administration program where the margins aren't necessarily as tight and 288 00:21:41.599 --> 00:21:45.799 it's a little bit cheaper to run a business administration program so you have a 289 00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:49.519 sense of okay, we're really going to enroll more students in this program to 290 00:21:49.559 --> 00:21:55.839 help support what we do. Because because nursing is a mission fit program or 291 00:21:55.839 --> 00:22:00.119 a performing arts department is is a mission fit program well, we can't operate 292 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.920 at a loss. We can operate all of our programs at a lass, 293 00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:07.640 but we may choose to do that in this case, but we fund it 294 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:10.920 by another means. Yeah. Well, you talk about breaking down silos. 295 00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:14.440 Now now there's an appreciation on the business administration side that, Hey, we're 296 00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:22.519 helping fund a Performing Arts Department or we're a nursing program or an engineering program 297 00:22:22.599 --> 00:22:26.759 yeah, I like that because I think sometimes, especially I think, well, 298 00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:30.599 I think everywhere, there's this this idea of Egalitarians and where it's like 299 00:22:30.680 --> 00:22:33.400 everybody's got to be equal, you know, especially, and I've had these 300 00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:36.880 arguments over the course of my career, especially as it relates to the website. 301 00:22:36.920 --> 00:22:41.400 Well, why is? Why is the MBA program featured on the website 302 00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:45.039 and my history programs not? That doesn't seem right. and well, it 303 00:22:45.079 --> 00:22:48.319 goes back to what we're talking about here. It's like, okay, there's 304 00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:51.400 a little bit of jealousy there, but at the same time, if I'm 305 00:22:51.440 --> 00:22:55.720 going to enroll, you know, seventy five business administration students and I've only 306 00:22:55.720 --> 00:23:00.240 got three people in the history program that comes down to dollars and sense sometimes, 307 00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:04.279 and you know, it's it's sometimes hard to make those conversations and again 308 00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:10.279 it I really liked what you said about managing that tension that that creates rather 309 00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:12.160 than trying to make that problem go away by just making everything equal. It 310 00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:18.200 won't go away because because in in academia, in scholarship, history is important, 311 00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:23.319 but no institution, unless you're a major state university, even they're you 312 00:23:23.319 --> 00:23:29.319 know, they're they're expensive to run and they need to appreciate the value of 313 00:23:29.480 --> 00:23:33.920 we value history. Is Important to have that program in order for us to 314 00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:38.000 have that program it means that there's an appreciation for, and UN reliance on 315 00:23:38.039 --> 00:23:44.720 these other programs. So it's it's it's you gain that, that level appreciation 316 00:23:44.920 --> 00:23:48.319 and you don't. You don't get that overnight. It's something that you build 317 00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:53.119 through conversations and people just just knowing that we're intentional in having this program the 318 00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:56.440 only way we can have this program is because we have these other programs. 319 00:23:56.519 --> 00:24:02.640 That's great. Statistics are saying that students who are graduating in the next couple 320 00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:07.440 of years and generation Alpha that's going to come after them will have at least 321 00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:12.519 ten different careers within their lifetime, and some of those careers have not been 322 00:24:12.559 --> 00:24:18.920 invented yet. So, from your perspective, how our colleges university supposed to 323 00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:25.279 train for this? How are they supposed to offer that mission. Yeah, 324 00:24:25.319 --> 00:24:30.119 I think this is this is probably one of the most significant issues and I'll 325 00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:36.440 make a general statement the higher education is not quite prepared for and I think 326 00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:41.480 within my context of Abag, I think we are on the cutting edge of 327 00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:45.160 this, realizing the fact that students are guent. That's not ten different jobs, 328 00:24:45.160 --> 00:24:49.799 that's ten different occupations. So really, what it does, what it 329 00:24:49.799 --> 00:24:56.200 it begs the question of what's the purpose of an undergraduate education? What are 330 00:24:56.200 --> 00:25:00.160 we preparing the students to do? For abag, that's very clear. We're 331 00:25:00.200 --> 00:25:04.839 about the great commission or about training students with the soft skills in life, 332 00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:10.599 the relational skills in life, that, regardless of occupational context, they have 333 00:25:10.680 --> 00:25:12.680 a sense of that they're sharing Christ with the people that they come in contact 334 00:25:12.759 --> 00:25:17.440 with. But I think the reality get crosses over very, very easily, 335 00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:19.880 as you have to ask the hard question. Higher Education has to look at 336 00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:25.000 self in the mirror and say, what are we preparing our students to do, 337 00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:29.559 realizing that we can't even anticipate the career that they're going to have ten 338 00:25:29.640 --> 00:25:33.880 years now, twenty years from now? Are there requisite life skills, foundational 339 00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:40.160 skills that we want to make sure that our graduates leave our institutions with so 340 00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:45.000 that they can be a successful in an environment where they will have ten different 341 00:25:45.000 --> 00:25:48.839 occupations. So I think what it what it's doing is really begging the whole 342 00:25:48.920 --> 00:25:53.319 end and in some ways it's kind of coming back to what higher education was, 343 00:25:53.519 --> 00:25:57.079 and it was pretty much that sense of preparing you. So so you 344 00:25:57.079 --> 00:26:03.240 look at an undergraduate education the court and undergraduate education is is developing critical thinking 345 00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:08.519 skills. Unfortunately, higher education is kind of turned it more into content up. 346 00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:12.640 You need to know this body of knowledge and we need to pivot off 347 00:26:12.680 --> 00:26:18.400 of that, and and and our classrooms are professors have to pivot on. 348 00:26:18.519 --> 00:26:22.000 It's not so much this is what you need to know, because grab your 349 00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:26.480 phone. Great information is readily available. The question is, what do you 350 00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:32.240 do with that information? Do you have the skills to critically think through that 351 00:26:32.279 --> 00:26:37.359 evaluation or that information and, in our case, value it for truth capitalty 352 00:26:37.799 --> 00:26:41.960 to say, you know what, this information is not valid because of x, 353 00:26:41.160 --> 00:26:47.319 Y and Z, and I think there's a whole reframing of higher education 354 00:26:47.319 --> 00:26:51.279 that's coming where we're going to seriously. Course, the public is already asking 355 00:26:51.319 --> 00:26:55.680 it. You just have to pick up a newspaper and somebody saying you're not 356 00:26:55.799 --> 00:26:59.240 going to take out two mortgages in order to form my for junior to go 357 00:26:59.279 --> 00:27:03.880 to college. They're graduating with six figures of debt, and so the valid 358 00:27:03.960 --> 00:27:10.079 question is being asked, what's what's the value? What am I getting as 359 00:27:10.119 --> 00:27:15.319 a result of this education? And I think that margin of value to reality 360 00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:19.000 is just gotten pretty, pretty tight, and I think it's a great reframing 361 00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:22.880 opportunity to say, you know, you know what, there is tremendous value. 362 00:27:22.920 --> 00:27:26.519 We are giving you life skills, we are giving you relational skills, 363 00:27:26.519 --> 00:27:33.480 those soft skills to be able to go into context, to totally reframe who 364 00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:37.759 we are so that we can be successful and whatever that next occupation is. 365 00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:44.920 Look at Covid. Covid just totally blew up the job market even to where 366 00:27:44.960 --> 00:27:48.160 we actually do our jobs and where we work. And how do we prepare 367 00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:52.279 students to go into that context and be successful and to be able to reinvent 368 00:27:52.359 --> 00:27:59.200 themselves so that they can be successful with whatever that next career that's coming their 369 00:27:59.240 --> 00:28:02.400 way? Yeah, I love that. That's a really good point. As 370 00:28:02.440 --> 00:28:07.240 we bring it to a close, our question to our guest always is if 371 00:28:07.279 --> 00:28:11.880 there is a tip, a topic something that you could offer that could be 372 00:28:11.920 --> 00:28:17.039 immediately implemented? What would that be? Yeah, so I appreciate the question 373 00:28:17.319 --> 00:28:21.680 and I appreciate the fact that you ask it in advance so I could actually 374 00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:30.440 think about it. And so it's going to sound perhaps too simplistic, but 375 00:28:30.519 --> 00:28:34.079 if you are, you know, the head of a recruiting department or Marketing 376 00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:38.119 Department, or even if you know if you're if you're just simply recruiting students, 377 00:28:40.200 --> 00:28:45.240 how do you start to address the mountain of the silos within higher education? 378 00:28:45.799 --> 00:28:49.880 It all happens by relationship. I've yet to experience in my higher ed 379 00:28:51.160 --> 00:28:56.799 experience the solution to the problem is a structure. The solution to the problem 380 00:28:56.799 --> 00:29:03.279 where the solution to managing tensions doesn't happen by putting a new structure in. 381 00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:11.640 It happens by relationship. So the the the easy thing to do. If 382 00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:15.880 you're a marketer, if you're a recruitment officer, pick up the phone, 383 00:29:15.920 --> 00:29:19.839 send an email to the chief academic officer of the institution where you serve and 384 00:29:19.880 --> 00:29:23.839 say hey, I want to take you to lunch. Start building a relationship. 385 00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:29.920 If you're a recruiter and you don't fully understand how the academics are structured 386 00:29:29.960 --> 00:29:33.160 and you sense that there are some of those silos within your institution. Pick 387 00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:37.839 up the phone, send an email to the department head where you don't understand 388 00:29:37.880 --> 00:29:42.039 it. Build a relationship, have a conversation, help me understand how social 389 00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:48.319 work happens. And that's how it happens, one relationship at a time. 390 00:29:48.599 --> 00:29:52.400 And I think our technology, this is one of the downsides of our technology, 391 00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:56.039 is it's forced us to tyranny of the urgent. Whatever's coming next, 392 00:29:56.039 --> 00:29:59.000 I'm just going to dress, I'm going to dress, I'm going to dress. 393 00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:00.960 I can, I can, I can just send a quick email response. 394 00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:08.799 I can. We've abandoned relationship and it takes time to build those relationships 395 00:30:08.839 --> 00:30:12.839 because then when it comes time to have some of those tough conversations, there's 396 00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:17.720 a relational context in which you can have that. I think we need to 397 00:30:17.720 --> 00:30:22.839 bring relationships back into our working communities. So that's a simple thing. Just 398 00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:26.559 pick up the phone, just just take them the lunch. You'll shock the 399 00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:30.119 socks off of them the fact that you're right. Take him the coffee if 400 00:30:30.119 --> 00:30:33.880 you can afford lunch, but build those relationships one relationship at a time. 401 00:30:34.240 --> 00:30:38.240 Thank you. Philip, how can our listeners contact you if they would like 402 00:30:38.279 --> 00:30:44.279 to do so? Absolutely so. Email is the best and my email is 403 00:30:44.400 --> 00:30:48.799 Philip Dot Dearborn at Abh Dot Org, and you can certainly access me through 404 00:30:48.839 --> 00:30:53.640 our website, Abh she dot org. But I love having conversations around this 405 00:30:53.680 --> 00:30:57.720 and off any of your listeners want to continue the conversation, I'd be happy 406 00:30:57.839 --> 00:31:03.640 to engage with them on that. Thank you, Philip Bart your closing thoughts? 407 00:31:03.720 --> 00:31:04.799 Yeah, I just wanted to point out a few things that Philip said 408 00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:11.440 because this is such a rich and informative interview and conversation. I really appreciate 409 00:31:11.480 --> 00:31:14.119 it. A lot of what we talked about with mission fit and again, 410 00:31:14.279 --> 00:31:15.839 you know, rewind a little bit if you want to kind of re listen 411 00:31:15.880 --> 00:31:22.000 to that and see how it applies to your particular school and your particular situation. 412 00:31:22.039 --> 00:31:23.240 But I think beyond that, one of the things I really appreciated was 413 00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:29.799 this idea of tension versus problem, the idea of managing the tensions and recognizing 414 00:31:29.799 --> 00:31:32.640 that, you know, we just can't get rid of problems. We've got 415 00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:36.000 to kind of look at those and how that works with silos, and even 416 00:31:36.079 --> 00:31:40.160 this last tip that Philip said about, you know, building those relationships. 417 00:31:40.200 --> 00:31:44.680 It reminded me a lot of conversation we had a few episodes ago with Eleanor 418 00:31:44.799 --> 00:31:48.720 Bierman from Chief Marketing Officer in Indiana University. She talked about all the silos 419 00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:52.759 that are in these big state systems. These silos are everywhere. I mean 420 00:31:52.799 --> 00:31:56.240 we've been talking about Small Bible colleges to you know, big state systems like 421 00:31:56.279 --> 00:32:00.319 Indiana University. Silos exist in higher education and I love the fact that Philip 422 00:32:00.400 --> 00:32:05.359 talked about one of the best ways to bring those silos down is is relationships. 423 00:32:05.359 --> 00:32:08.160 You know, Eleanor talked about clarity of vision. There's there's ways of 424 00:32:08.559 --> 00:32:13.359 relationship and and speaking that clarity of vision, which I think can happen over 425 00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:16.839 coffee. Probably the best way to have that clarity of vision is over coffee 426 00:32:16.839 --> 00:32:22.000 so that if you don't understand the vision of the you know, academic department, 427 00:32:22.359 --> 00:32:24.640 you're talking them over coffee and we're really getting to know each other and 428 00:32:24.680 --> 00:32:30.079 building that trust. So really appreciate your your time and your thoughts on this, 429 00:32:30.079 --> 00:32:31.559 Philip. Thank you so much for being a part of this. Absolutely 430 00:32:31.599 --> 00:32:36.640 my pleasure. That concludes the Higher Ed Marketer Podcast, which is sponsored by 431 00:32:36.680 --> 00:32:40.720 Kaylor solutions and education, marketing and branding agency and by thing patented, a 432 00:32:40.839 --> 00:32:50.000 Marketing Execution Company specializing in mailings, printing, customization and personalized outreach programs. 433 00:32:50.039 --> 00:32:52.720 On behalf of my cohost, Bart Kaylor, I'm tchroice singer. Thank you 434 00:32:52.759 --> 00:33:00.440 for joining us. You've been listening to the Higher Ed Marketer to to ensure 435 00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:04.319 that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast 436 00:33:04.359 --> 00:33:07.680 player. If you're listening with apple PODCASTS, we'd love for you to leave 437 00:33:07.720 --> 00:33:12.200 a quick rating of the show. Simply tap the number of stars you think 438 00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:14.839 the podcast deserves. Until next time,